R/C Tech Forums

Go Back   R/C Tech Forums > General Forums > Electric On-Road

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 02-04-2010, 12:49 PM   #16
Tech Adept
 
dietDrThunder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 160
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

Sorry this is so long, but I want to chime in here. I haven't raced in 10+ years (am coming back now) but when I read these threads it's like I never left.

In the late 80's, as a young guy (20 or so) I gave up on racing my RC10 because I couldn't afford the expensive 'reds' (cr NiCads IIRC), nor could I afford a Novak ESC, and my 12T smoked my Futaba ESC (112B IIRC? ). So, I was gone from the hobby because only people who could/would spend more money than I could were competitive.

Then I came back to the hobby as a gainfully employed adult in the late 90's. I was paying guys at the track to cut and dyno tune motors, I was going through multiple sets of tires in a weekend, I had well over $10k in stuff between chargers, PSUs, radios, cars, motors, etc. etc. I had a ball, and I was a regular in the 'A' main in most club events. I wasn't the best driver, but I was ok, and rarely was there a car better than mine on the track.

But, at the same time there was the group of kids and other novices who were frustrated by the same things I was frustrated about 10 years before. They would come into the hobby, and 9 of 10 of them would be gone, and quickly. Sometimes 10 of 10.

Now today, it's the same issue from what I'm hearing, except the technology is different, so now it's programmable ESC's that are at the forefront, not tuned motors and batteries. Same zebra, different stripes. It has always been this way. It will always be this way.

In my opinion there is only one real answer, and that is pure spec racing. Find a decent RTR that has easy parts availability and is cheap, and have a class for it. No mods at all in any way. Even pick a spec tire. This is the class for these novice hobbyists people talk about. Don't allow anyone who races in any other classes to also race in this class (race director's discretion: idea is to prevent vets from running, not hinder moving up). All will have fun. A few will get more serious and move on to other classes. Many won't. That's just how it is.

I believe that Novak (among others) have the bests interests of the hobby at heart, but this exact same conversation has been going on for over 20 years. Does anyone really think a new ESC is going to fix it? Come on.

The bottom line is this: there is a relatively small cross-section of people who play with RC cars and trucks who are ever going to be serious enough to spend the time and money (and more money) that it takes when you decide to take racing even semi-seriously. That's just reality. Coming out with a non-programmable ESC isn't going to change that. What's needed is a real avenue of entry for driveway basher types, and a new ESC isn't going to provide that.


---


side note: I do think that what Novak (and others it seems now) is doing with this stuff is right on the money for what we call 'stock' class racing...keep it up! I'm just saying that IMO it's great, but it is not a solution to The Great Unanswered Question, which is 'how do we get new faces to join and keep on racing.
dietDrThunder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2010, 12:53 PM   #17
Tech Elite
 
RCHR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,490
Default

The Tamiya Championship Series is about the best, longest lasting spec racing I've seen.

It can be done. But it can only be done by a single manufacturer - ROAR can't be baised like that. So don't look to ROAR for the "spec class" answer.
__________________
Radio Control Hobbies & Raceway
1258 South Main Street, Waterbury, CT. 06706
203-575-9757 / www.rchr.biz / [email protected]
RCHR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2010, 12:56 PM   #18
Tech Champion
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 5,360
Trader Rating: 38 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarbonJoe View Post
I'm waiting for ... "talent in a can".
It exists. We have Junior Norton talent in a can at our track. It is bitter tasting and makes you feel like crap but it is effective. You just have to consume a lot of it for it to make you great.
or8ital is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2010, 12:59 PM   #19
Regional Moderator
 
CarbonJoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,661
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dietDrThunder View Post
In my opinion there is only one real answer, and that is pure spec racing. Find a decent RTR that has easy parts availability and is cheap, and have a class for it. No mods at all in any way. Even pick a spec tire. This is the class for these novice hobbyists people talk about. Don't allow anyone who races in any other classes to also race in this class (race director's discretion: idea is to prevent vets from running, not hinder moving up). All will have fun. A few will get more serious and move on to other classes. Many won't. That's just how it is.
So, you're basically saying we need a Slash for the on-road crowd. Only this time, something that multiple vendors can make (along with a common power package) that the hobbyist can bash on the street at home, but also race at a regular track. The HPI Flux 2 is close, only the powerplant isn't really useful if one decides to move up.

Something like a RTR VTA car (with a USVTA legal ESC/motor) would be a great start. They also need to come with some form of 2.4GHz radio so you can run more than 6 at a time without having to upgrade the radio immediately.
__________________
*** The Gate - Celebrating 8 years at the same location ***
The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits. - Albert Einstein
Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car and oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car
CarbonJoe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2010, 01:04 PM   #20
Tech Adept
 
dietDrThunder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 160
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RCHR View Post
The Tamiya Championship Series is about the best, longest lasting spec racing I've seen.

It can be done. But it can only be done by a single manufacturer - ROAR can't be biased like that. So don't look to ROAR for the "spec class" answer.
Why can't they? The AMA ran a Harley Davidson Sportster 883 class in Nationals some years back. Just 2 years ago there was an AMA-sanctioned series called The Red Bull Rookie Cup, where all riders rode in Red Bull livery, and all rode identical KTM 125GP bikes. How is ROAR different?
dietDrThunder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2010, 01:09 PM   #21
Tech Adept
 
dietDrThunder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 160
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarbonJoe View Post
So, you're basically saying we need a Slash for the on-road crowd. Only this time, something that multiple vendors can make (along with a common power package) that the hobbyist can bash on the street at home, but also race at a regular track. The HPI Flux 2 is close, only the powerplant isn't really useful if one decides to move up.

Something like a RTR VTA car (with a USVTA legal ESC/motor) would be a great start. They also need to come with some form of 2.4GHz radio so you can run more than 6 at a time without having to upgrade the radio immediately.
I don't think it's necessary that there be multiple vendors, but apart from that, yes, exactly. The way to do it is to announce your intentions (ROAR I mean) to the OEMs and have them submit proposals for what the RTR car they'll spec out for this class would be, along with pricing, how parts availability would work, possible trade-up programs, whatever. Then the sanctioning body picks what they think is the best proposal, and that's who gets the class. If they want to avoid any possible appearance of impropriety, they could make all of the proposals public. This process is essentially a bidding process, so the OEM's are highly motivated to come in at a low price and provide a good car, because they want the business.

And ya, I think a RTR USVTA type car would be perfect, except not with the vintage aspect. It has to look modern and cool so kids will like it too. Speaking of that, I'd allow pretty wide latitude in bodies so that people can pick what they like.

Last edited by dietDrThunder; 02-04-2010 at 02:36 PM.
dietDrThunder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2010, 01:30 PM   #22
Company Representative
R/C Tech Elite Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: SoCal
Posts: 2,891
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaunMac View Post
In the same way companies ---all playing according to the same guidelines--- make motors that are faster than others.
I have seen no objective evidence that one company's motor, built according to ROAR spec guidelines, is any faster than another. I have read the "claims"; but, to my knowledge, no one has performed the double-blind testing necessary to confirm the marketing hype.
NovakTwo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2010, 03:04 PM   #23
Tech Champion
 
robk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Macho Business Donkey Wrestler
Posts: 7,587
Trader Rating: 22 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarbonJoe View Post
I'm waiting for "better drivers" and perhaps "talent in a can".
You know this already exists....

__________________
A mutually re-enforcing cascade of failure

"Failior [sic] crowns enterprise." Robert Goddard

I-Lap Scoring Systems http://www.rclapcounter.com/
robk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2010, 03:15 PM   #24
Regional Moderator
 
CarbonJoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,661
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by robk View Post
You know this already exists....

Wow, I thought that was the same as "Blowout in a Can"...
__________________
*** The Gate - Celebrating 8 years at the same location ***
The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits. - Albert Einstein
Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car and oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car
CarbonJoe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2010, 03:20 PM   #25
Tech Master
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,305
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RCHR View Post
The Tamiya Championship Series is about the best, longest lasting spec racing I've seen.

It can be done. But it can only be done by a single manufacturer - ROAR can't be baised like that. So don't look to ROAR for the "spec class" answer.
+1
redbones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2010, 03:57 PM   #26
Registered User
 
UltegraSTI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 7,171
Trader Rating: 20 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrrcguy View Post
Glimpse at the future of "STOCK" Racing?
Watch modified on youtube.

R
UltegraSTI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2010, 04:39 PM   #27
Tech Addict
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 649
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dietDrThunder View Post
Why can't they? The AMA ran a Harley Davidson Sportster 883 class in Nationals some years back. Just 2 years ago there was an AMA-sanctioned series called The Red Bull Rookie Cup, where all riders rode in Red Bull livery, and all rode identical KTM 125GP bikes. How is ROAR different?
The 883 class had issues. It was NOT cheap.

Personally I think that if the manufacturers get together and create a set of rules for speedo parameters. Set a 2 year freeze on the speedo's and go for it.

Similar with motors. Freeze the current motors for 2 years and go for it.

ROAR will adopt the rules if they work out.
Fred_B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2010, 06:48 PM   #28
Tech Adept
 
dietDrThunder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 160
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred_B View Post
The 883 class had issues. It was NOT cheap.

Personally I think that if the manufacturers get together and create a set of rules for speedo parameters. Set a 2 year freeze on the speedo's and go for it.

Similar with motors. Freeze the current motors for 2 years and go for it.

ROAR will adopt the rules if they work out.
I was using the 883 class as an example of how an org can have a one-brand series...wasn't talking about how cheap it was.

As for the rest, in theory it might work, but it will never happen. A spec class can definitely happen if folks wanted it to.
dietDrThunder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2010, 06:59 PM   #29
Tech Master
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Nor-Cal
Posts: 1,853
Trader Rating: 18 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dietDrThunder View Post
I was using the 883 class as an example of how an org can have a one-brand series...wasn't talking about how cheap it was.

As for the rest, in theory it might work, but it will never happen. A spec class can definitely happen if folks wanted it to.
Spec racing isn't cheap. Stock racing isn't cheap. Modified racing isn't cheap... Seems like if we want more average Joe's to race it needs to be cheap and easy to handle for novices...

The number of bodies in the class is what rules...just ask the Manufacturers. Their money is in the numbers.
__________________
SMC ( www.smc-racing.com the only place to order your batteries online.), Awesomatix, Gonzo Paints, BN Racing

"Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery."
Advil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2010, 07:48 PM   #30
Tech Master
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Christchurch, NZ
Posts: 1,063
Default

How about sensorless esc's, and fixed timing motors?
As far as I know sensorless esc's can't have dynamic timing, which is the real issue with parity.
Or go back to silver cans which we still race in stock in NZ........
__________________
Agama A8 Evo | GRP .21 | Spektrum | Savox

My car just hit 88mph. I hope it comes back soon....
JR007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -7. It is currently 06:19 PM.


We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Powered By: vBulletin v3.9.2.1
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Advertise Content © 2001-2011 RCTech.net