Solution for the stock class problems
02-02-2010, 03:44 PM
#196
where did he compare nationwide to budget short track classes. THIS is the problem, when someone has a good point, you discount it by twisting what is said. I'll call it old school so theres no misunderstanding,
winston cup, busch, and craftsman truck seriers all run the SAME tracks, SHOULD winston cup drivers be banned from the busch series and craftsman truck series. thats what he was saying. he didn't compare anyone to budget short track racers...
winston cup, busch, and craftsman truck seriers all run the SAME tracks, SHOULD winston cup drivers be banned from the busch series and craftsman truck series. thats what he was saying. he didn't compare anyone to budget short track racers...
Comparing r/c racing to 1/1 racing is never a good idea... You get some people trying to race around an r/c track without hitting anything vs competent drivers who has years of experience before getting in the lower cup series... lol + last time I checked nobody is paying to watch r/c racing......
02-02-2010, 11:09 PM
#199
Comparing r/c racing to 1/1 racing is never a good idea... You get some people trying to race around an r/c track without hitting anything vs competent drivers who has years of experience before getting in the lower cup series... lol + last time I checked nobody is paying to watch r/c racing......
liverc as tons of members that pay to watch.
02-03-2010, 12:46 AM
#200
And there's the problem. Why you're not having fun is different for everyone.
The way you solve the problem with stock is to eliminate it. It's not really stock anymore, and hasn't been for decades now.
Stock is a word that comes from full scale racing. Stock means "as it came from the factory." In SCCA there's showroom stock, which means just that, you race the car as it came from the showroom, save a handful of safety modifications. NHRA has a stock and super stock class. The rules there go so fas as to say if the car came with a jack that jack needs to be in your race car. The engine rules are specific for each engine and car, and there's a separate rule book for each car/engine. Super stock are the same rules except you can change the camshaft.
And you can't use stock car racing. In the '50s NASCAR was stock cars, but as speed and safety bacame issues they moved to tube chassis cars.
Since most RC cars don't even come with a motor any more, it's hard to say what is a stock motor. Spec motor would be more accurate. The problem with spec motors is if your motor is just a little bit faster than someone else's, you have a big advantage.
So the problem becomes who do you want to race with? Some want to race with the best because that's the best way to improve your skills. But not everyone is interested in becoming that level racer. They just want to go to their local track and hang out with their buddies. They don't care about the snowbirds, the ICC, or whatever big race of the week is going on. They're just looking to have fun. Forcing them to race with the fast guys loses some of the fun. First you spend too much time moving over for the better drivers, and then if you make a small mistake the fast drivers are in your face about driver etiquette. That's the point where the fun racers say screw this and find something else to do.
Look at off road and the slash/short course trucks. No one is racing those because they're faster or handle better. They're racing them because it's fun.
The way you solve the problem with stock is to eliminate it. It's not really stock anymore, and hasn't been for decades now.
Stock is a word that comes from full scale racing. Stock means "as it came from the factory." In SCCA there's showroom stock, which means just that, you race the car as it came from the showroom, save a handful of safety modifications. NHRA has a stock and super stock class. The rules there go so fas as to say if the car came with a jack that jack needs to be in your race car. The engine rules are specific for each engine and car, and there's a separate rule book for each car/engine. Super stock are the same rules except you can change the camshaft.
And you can't use stock car racing. In the '50s NASCAR was stock cars, but as speed and safety bacame issues they moved to tube chassis cars.
Since most RC cars don't even come with a motor any more, it's hard to say what is a stock motor. Spec motor would be more accurate. The problem with spec motors is if your motor is just a little bit faster than someone else's, you have a big advantage.
So the problem becomes who do you want to race with? Some want to race with the best because that's the best way to improve your skills. But not everyone is interested in becoming that level racer. They just want to go to their local track and hang out with their buddies. They don't care about the snowbirds, the ICC, or whatever big race of the week is going on. They're just looking to have fun. Forcing them to race with the fast guys loses some of the fun. First you spend too much time moving over for the better drivers, and then if you make a small mistake the fast drivers are in your face about driver etiquette. That's the point where the fun racers say screw this and find something else to do.
Look at off road and the slash/short course trucks. No one is racing those because they're faster or handle better. They're racing them because it's fun.
Brushed motors and escs are very cheap now. I still think they have a place in r/c somewhere, especially for the newcomers.
I think brushless can be very intimidating and expensive to someone who knows little or nothing about the many options a brushless ESC can have.
My advice to those people is stay racing at the same track and work on getting your laptimes lower and consistant.
If you go to many different tracks, or you'll get confused with gearing, car setup etc etc.
02-03-2010, 05:35 AM
#201
Tech Master
iTrader: (3)
Speed Passion Cirtix Stock Club Race ESC
- Taken from RedRC.net
Discuss.
New from Speed Passion, the Cirtix Stock Club Race ESC and motor combos finally give stock and spec class racers the fair competition they have asked for and all at an incredibly low price. The new systems are ideal for both big race spec handout systems and small club spec racing where equal performance and low cost are a must to grow new classes and attract new racers. The ESCs feature only brake strength and drag brake force as programmable options. All other performance parameters are fixed and there is no USB altering or updating capability in order to deliver the same consistent power for everyone.
Discuss.
02-03-2010, 05:40 AM
#202
Really? 
Brushed motors and speed controls are cheap now because no one wants them.
Brushless motors are much easier for the newcomer over brushed. There's no tuning, and there's no maintenance after 5 runs. There are some brushless motor/speedo combos out there that are very price effective. A newbie can throw that in his car and not worry about it almost for a whole season. That person can then concentrate on learning how to race. Once the skills are up there then they can go into the big dollar tunable speedos.
Brushed motors and speed controls are cheap now because no one wants them.
Brushless motors are much easier for the newcomer over brushed. There's no tuning, and there's no maintenance after 5 runs. There are some brushless motor/speedo combos out there that are very price effective. A newbie can throw that in his car and not worry about it almost for a whole season. That person can then concentrate on learning how to race. Once the skills are up there then they can go into the big dollar tunable speedos.
02-03-2010, 05:41 AM
#203
Tech Regular
http://www.redrc.net/2010/02/speed-p...club-race-esc/
"New from Speed Passion, the Cirtix Stock Club Race ESC and motor combos finally give stock and spec class racers the fair competition they have asked for and all at an incredibly low price. The new systems are ideal for both big race spec handout systems and small club spec racing where equal performance and low cost are a must to grow new classes and attract new racers. The ESCs feature only brake strength and drag brake force as programmable options. All other performance parameters are fixed and there is no USB altering or updating capability in order to deliver the same consistent power for everyone." - Taken from RedRC.net
Discuss.
"New from Speed Passion, the Cirtix Stock Club Race ESC and motor combos finally give stock and spec class racers the fair competition they have asked for and all at an incredibly low price. The new systems are ideal for both big race spec handout systems and small club spec racing where equal performance and low cost are a must to grow new classes and attract new racers. The ESCs feature only brake strength and drag brake force as programmable options. All other performance parameters are fixed and there is no USB altering or updating capability in order to deliver the same consistent power for everyone." - Taken from RedRC.net
Discuss.
unless speed passion is ready to sponsor a few races with this esc or have tie ups with kit manufacturers to bundle these escs with their kits, the inertia to change will be great...
but a great idea in the correct direction...
02-03-2010, 06:27 AM
#204
That's what we have here in Geneva; Switzerland :
cheap spec entry-level Orion ESC/motor combos for our beginner class. GREAT SUCCESS so far.
However our races are sponsored by Orion so the price is quite attractive, AND another great idea is the fact that as the winter championship starts you can buy a "package" including :
fees for the 6 racedays of the whole winter championship + 4 premounted wheels+ ESC+ motor
,for a VERY nice price. The fact that you can pay your entry fees once for all at a disount price is EXTREMELY attractive and a strong incitation to stay all winter. The turnouts are very, very good, almost too many drivers showing up, and the atmosphere is very fun, relaxed...
Check the Swiss Indoor Touring Car Championship on google ( SITCC) and you might find videos.
cheap spec entry-level Orion ESC/motor combos for our beginner class. GREAT SUCCESS so far.
However our races are sponsored by Orion so the price is quite attractive, AND another great idea is the fact that as the winter championship starts you can buy a "package" including :
fees for the 6 racedays of the whole winter championship + 4 premounted wheels+ ESC+ motor
,for a VERY nice price. The fact that you can pay your entry fees once for all at a disount price is EXTREMELY attractive and a strong incitation to stay all winter. The turnouts are very, very good, almost too many drivers showing up, and the atmosphere is very fun, relaxed...
Check the Swiss Indoor Touring Car Championship on google ( SITCC) and you might find videos.
02-03-2010, 06:41 AM
#205
Tech Adept
the underlying problem to this whole discussion is that there is no cohesion with racing organisations and MFG's. from what i've read, ROAR is trying to place limits on the stock class, but the MFG's continue to keep adding bells and whistles to stuff for the stock racer to go faster. the organisations and MFG's need to work together to create a stock class that is equal nationally if not globally. i think we are starting to see this with both EFRA and ROAR and all the MFG's.
02-03-2010, 07:03 AM
#206
Really?
Brushed motors and speed controls are cheap now because no one wants them.
Brushless motors are much easier for the newcomer over brushed. There's no tuning, and there's no maintenance after 5 runs. There are some brushless motor/speedo combos out there that are very price effective. A newbie can throw that in his car and not worry about it almost for a whole season. That person can then concentrate on learning how to race. Once the skills are up there then they can go into the big dollar tunable speedos.
Brushed motors and speed controls are cheap now because no one wants them.
Brushless motors are much easier for the newcomer over brushed. There's no tuning, and there's no maintenance after 5 runs. There are some brushless motor/speedo combos out there that are very price effective. A newbie can throw that in his car and not worry about it almost for a whole season. That person can then concentrate on learning how to race. Once the skills are up there then they can go into the big dollar tunable speedos.
cheap, CHEAP racing can then appeal to any age.
Just the thrill of being in control of a silver can motor if you've never used an rc car is fast enough for some and is more cheaper/available second hand than a brushless esc and 21.5.
Ok there is the looking after it side, but a few cotton buds and motor spray isnt expensive...
Its just food for thought.
Not everyone likes/understands technology, or has the urge to buy the latest type of part, let alone tunable stuff until they decide they like rc, then they upgrade.
Maybe im wrong though
it wouldnt be the first time, wont be the last either... Would a club rather see a newcomer start off with some used brushed gear and get racing, or been put off with the cost of brushless and not turn a wheel once?
New Technology cost money, old does not. I could still race a silver can motor now and have fun after 15 years of rc.
For me, it doesnt matter what motor is in the car if the racing is close!
02-03-2010, 08:37 AM
#208
That new speed passion esc I believe would fit the new rules coming in Sept for USVTA just like the Novak Havoc does and GTB.
Maybe this the way stock needs to go, non-timing advanced ESCs like these, and then Super stock can have the timing advanced ESCs etc as that seems to be where a lot of the complaints are from what I gather, the timing advance / turbo boost / flux capacitor thing.
Maybe this the way stock needs to go, non-timing advanced ESCs like these, and then Super stock can have the timing advanced ESCs etc as that seems to be where a lot of the complaints are from what I gather, the timing advance / turbo boost / flux capacitor thing.
02-03-2010, 09:02 AM
#209
and yes, the m chassis is a great example of how brushed motors allow a cheap class to get you into the bug of racing... 
There is still a place for them in r/c for sure
02-03-2010, 09:14 AM
#210
re: the great ESC debate...I posted this in the VTA thread, and while I was ignored, I think something like this might be helpful. There are forum threads all over the Interwebs with people complaining about the arms race of ESCs re: timing adv. etc, but not much in the way of ideas to help mitigate it.
ESC's like the Citrix are a great start, and if they were combined with the idea below so that people could use what they already owned and still have parity, I think we might have something.
I think the OEM's could go a long way on this by agreeing among themselves to put, say, a blue LED on the case and a microswitch on the hot rod programmable ESCs. To tech the car you push the button once to go into tech mode, then press and hold. If the light flashes 3 times, that signifies that the timing advance and turbo, etc. features are turned off (maybe that action even zeros out those settings). This would be very easy to do, easy to make pretty highly cheat resistant (that's why I added in the button and the flashing, rather than a steady blue light), and wouldn't affect any functionality.
Another way would be to have an extra post on the ESC, and if your motor is using that one, it's out of the loop re: the timing advances etc. Relatively easy to manufacture, easy to visually tech, and not a huge cost difference.
I'm just thinking out loud, and the fact is that cheaters are gonna cheat, but for the vast majority of people this would be more than enough to keep people honest. The goal here is to make it so experienced folks with high-dollar gear can still use it if they want, new racers can buy one high end ESC if they want (for future class changing) or they can go with the less expensive stuff, but either way, the ESC playing field would be about as level as you're gonna get.
In any case, the details aren't important. The point is that the OEMs could pretty easily make the ESC's techable for a no-programming type of class in my opinion.
ESC's like the Citrix are a great start, and if they were combined with the idea below so that people could use what they already owned and still have parity, I think we might have something.
I think the OEM's could go a long way on this by agreeing among themselves to put, say, a blue LED on the case and a microswitch on the hot rod programmable ESCs. To tech the car you push the button once to go into tech mode, then press and hold. If the light flashes 3 times, that signifies that the timing advance and turbo, etc. features are turned off (maybe that action even zeros out those settings). This would be very easy to do, easy to make pretty highly cheat resistant (that's why I added in the button and the flashing, rather than a steady blue light), and wouldn't affect any functionality.
Another way would be to have an extra post on the ESC, and if your motor is using that one, it's out of the loop re: the timing advances etc. Relatively easy to manufacture, easy to visually tech, and not a huge cost difference.
I'm just thinking out loud, and the fact is that cheaters are gonna cheat, but for the vast majority of people this would be more than enough to keep people honest. The goal here is to make it so experienced folks with high-dollar gear can still use it if they want, new racers can buy one high end ESC if they want (for future class changing) or they can go with the less expensive stuff, but either way, the ESC playing field would be about as level as you're gonna get.
In any case, the details aren't important. The point is that the OEMs could pretty easily make the ESC's techable for a no-programming type of class in my opinion.