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Old 01-28-2010, 06:30 PM   #1
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Default Solution for the stock class problems

The solution to solve the problems with stock class ESC war's has been refound.

MODIFIED

Just thinking in class today.. Did Michael Schumacher get into F1 because somebody saw him winning the Geo Metro Nationals? Sure, he didnt learn with a F1 car, but he sure didnt stick to f2000 his whole life.

I don't care how many parts I break. If I never have to mess with another ESC tuner, ESC war, or any other stock class stupidity, ill be happy messing up the wall's come outdoor season. Some practice in mod will make me way faster then practice in stock. Why pay so much to go slow anyway?

I race toy cars, and the little kid in me wants them to go fast.

Now, flame away. I wanna hear what people have to say!
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Old 01-28-2010, 06:57 PM   #2
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I completely agree. We should let the track and driver skill determine how much straight away speed is optimal.

Using touring car as an example, I think there should be one slow class for beginners like 21.5 with ESCs limited to a special set of cheap low tech BL speedos. The rest should not be separated by motor type, but rather by driver skill, chassis type, bodies, or anything else.

I can see that slower classes can have better battles for some racers, but in reality that doesn't play out since some racers will always have cars with more straight away speed. That only works if everyone is using the same equipment. Furthermore, even in our stock classes, everyone is running TP 5000 mAh 40C lipos so we already have the power for mod at hand. For me, it makes no sense to invest so much time in finding more power when it is already accessible. It sure does make sense if you're one of the guys selling the equipmnent though .
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Old 01-28-2010, 06:59 PM   #3
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There are 3 problems with your idea:
1. True spec racing is fun as it's more down to drivers skill not gadgets. Sadly user-programmable esc timing killed that (other things like the battery wars only wounded it).
2. There aren't enough people like you ready to man-up and take the challenge. Big fish in small ponds buddy
3. This thread will get swallowed up in whining by a whole lot of people wallowing in the aforementioned small pond that think it's their right to be the 20 year old that hangs out with school kids 'cos they think he's cool!
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Old 01-28-2010, 07:07 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by HI_808 View Post
I completely agree. We should let the track and driver skill determine how much straight away speed is optimal.

Using touring car as an example, I think there should be one slow class for beginners like 21.5 with ESCs limited to a special set of cheap low tech BL speedos. The rest should not be separated by motor type, but rather by driver skill, chassis type, bodies, or anything else.

I can see that slower classes can have better battles for some racers, but in reality that doesn't play out since some racers will always have cars with more straight away speed. That only works if everyone is using the same equipment. Furthermore, even in our stock classes, everyone is running TP 5000 mAh 40C lipos so we already have the power for mod at hand. For me, it makes no sense to invest so much time in finding more power when it is already accessible. It sure does make sense if you're one of the guys selling the equipmnent though .
21.5 with slow esc's is a great idea. Stick to racing bodies though. It dosnt matter what bodies look like. My resent thinking reminded me that Buggy and Truggys look nothing like real cars. And those are the 2 biggest rc classes. Make it simple for RC Racers. One, simple, idea. Just slow, and fast. Maybe even sportsman fast.

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There are 3 problems with your idea:
1. True spec racing is fun as it's more down to drivers skill not gadgets. Sadly user-programmable esc timing killed that (other things like the battery wars only wounded it).
2. There aren't enough people like you ready to man-up and take the challenge. Big fish in small ponds buddy
3. This thread will get swallowed up in whining by a whole lot of people wallowing in the aforementioned small pond that think it's their right to be the 20 year old that hangs out with school kids 'cos they think he's cool!
Spec racing is fun. Sure! Because the racing is closer. Only reason the racing is closer is that 95% of people can race a slow car faster than a fast car. Man up people. Learn to move over for the fast guys.

And don't get me wrong, racing is racing. When it's cheaper to race mod, why pay to go slow??
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Old 01-28-2010, 07:24 PM   #5
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At our track last weekend we divided into 3 seperate classes but we all still ran 17.5. This has been our "stock" class" this season. Everyone used to run 13.5. That is when the GTB and others like LRP were the "king" speedo's. With the new speed controls at our track it is not making a huge difference but it is at the same time helping get down the straight and through the sweeper faster. Here are the classes and to my knowledge the most laps anyone has run at our track on the current layout.

Pro Stock 17.5 (Expert) 37 All but 2 are running Tekin with 203

stock 17.5(Novice drivers)35 at most, (speed control is kind of an issue)

sportsman 17.5(newbies)31 give or take

Dividing the classes was great and we all are glad that we finnally did. It makes for better racing all around. Well atleast it did for us.......

Oh yeah,we don't even run a 13.5 class at our track because there is just a loss of traction to a certain point on our carpet. Its just to fast.


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Old 01-28-2010, 07:42 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JR007 View Post
There are 3 problems with your idea:
1. True spec racing is fun as it's more down to drivers skill not gadgets. Sadly user-programmable esc timing killed that (other things like the battery wars only wounded it).
this couldn't be any more wrong. modified is driver's skill, and stock is equipment racing. spec racing is an expensive class, and a cheater class.
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Old 01-28-2010, 07:49 PM   #7
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this couldn't be any more wrong. modified is driver's skill, and stock is equipment racing. spec racing is an expensive class, and a cheater class.
Hit the nail on the head
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Old 01-28-2010, 07:52 PM   #8
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We had a class running the HPI Saturn motors. Motors cost us about $10 each. Slower cars make the race about driving clean lines instead of reaction time.
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Old 01-28-2010, 07:59 PM   #9
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I agree with some earlier posts that the only way to make it 'fair' is to have everyone to use the same equipment.

I guess one way to make it fair is to find sponsorship and provide both ESC and motor to the stock racer. And the racer could have to option to purchase the combo cheap by the end of race. To keep the entry cost down, the combo doesn't have to be the latest tech.

I have also once participated in a race where 'stock' class had restriction on racer identity; anyone who had won first three places in nationals or large races was banned or strongly discouraged not to join the stock class. It was an interesting approach, and certainly keep the prototype ESC/motor out of the normal stock class.

It is ironic to see the real 'fair' game is the open modified, and 'stock' class seems more and more becoming a ESC/motor/battery war.
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Old 01-28-2010, 08:10 PM   #10
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This just became my most favorite thread on RCTECH!!!
It makes me laugh when these guys say that stock is cheaper than mod!!! yeah right! since when has "certian" speed controls been banned from mod? over the last 26 years i've been in this hobby i've never seen it. all the drama and issues are in stock. why? because SOMEBODY's always trying to get that unfair ADVANTAGE in what is supposed to be a level playing feild.
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Old 01-28-2010, 10:52 PM   #11
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this couldn't be any more wrong. modified is driver's skill, and stock is equipment racing. spec racing is an expensive class, and a cheater class.
I think you misunderstood my statement. The comment was that IF gear was the same or similar, stock is driver to driver. My further notes on user-programmable esc's wrecking this was an allusion to the fact that stock is no longer stock.
We still have brushed silver cans for our stock racing. No programmable timing here buddy, what the motor puts out, is what the motor puts out. You will always get cheaters, but generally it's more fair than brushless sensored racing.
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Old 01-29-2010, 01:20 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JR007 View Post
I think you misunderstood my statement. The comment was that IF gear was the same or similar, stock is driver to driver. My further notes on user-programmable esc's wrecking this was an allusion to the fact that stock is no longer stock.
We still have brushed silver cans for our stock racing. No programmable timing here buddy, what the motor puts out, is what the motor puts out. You will always get cheaters, but generally it's more fair than brushless sensored racing.
Silver can is more fair ? When you have guys advancing the timing on sealed silver cans with magnets to turn an 11K rpm motor into a 17K rocket ? Yeah right. I ran GT-3 in a Tamiya race two years ago in Nor Cal and was getting pulled 5 car lenghts just on the straight with a silver can. That's real fair.

Also, the notion that slower classes makes for closer racing is not because it puts more emphasis on better driving. When was the last time you saw a big race with factory drivers ? How close do those guys run with 4.5 brushless ? Energydrink is dead on, mod is more about skill. The slower the class just makes it easier for more drivers to be competitive. Take that silver can class that is so close and have them run 17.5 or 13.5 and what happens ? Not so close anymore ? Sounds like youth soccer to me. What happened to people taking their lumps in the B or C main at their local race with aspirations of improving their driving skill to make it up to the A main ?

What I can't understand was LRP came out with their "turbo" setting on profile 8 of the SPX last year. Yeah, it was an advantage on the straights but people weren't screaming to ban it. They went out and bought one. Now people want to ban Tekin's ? Does that mean when LRP comes out with their new SXX, and KO, Novak and the others come out with their equivalents later in the season, they will be banned also ? That's a great idea ! Lets ban any new design or technology. That includes batteries, chassis, tires, everything. That will really keep the manufactures in the sport.
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Old 01-29-2010, 01:44 AM   #13
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As in some stock competitions, the silver can motors are supplied on the race day, and not allowed to use our own.

Quote:
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Silver can is more fair ? When you have guys advancing the timing on sealed silver cans with magnets to turn an 11K rpm motor into a 17K rocket ? Yeah right. I ran GT-3 in a Tamiya race two years ago in Nor Cal and was getting pulled 5 car lenghts just on the straight with a silver can. That's real fair.

Also, the notion that slower classes makes for closer racing is not because it puts more emphasis on better driving. When was the last time you saw a big race with factory drivers ? How close do those guys run with 4.5 brushless ? Energydrink is dead on, mod is more about skill. The slower the class just makes it easier for more drivers to be competitive. Take that silver can class that is so close and have them run 17.5 or 13.5 and what happens ? Not so close anymore ? Sounds like youth soccer to me. What happened to people taking their lumps in the B or C main at their local race with aspirations of improving their driving skill to make it up to the A main ?

What I can't understand was LRP came out with their "turbo" setting on profile 8 of the SPX last year. Yeah, it was an advantage on the straights but people weren't screaming to ban it. They went out and bought one. Now people want to ban Tekin's ? Does that mean when LRP comes out with their new SXX, and KO, Novak and the others come out with their equivalents later in the season, they will be banned also ? That's a great idea ! Lets ban any new design or technology. That includes batteries, chassis, tires, everything. That will really keep the manufactures in the sport.
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Old 01-29-2010, 02:53 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Kevin CBR View Post

What I can't understand was LRP came out with their "turbo" setting on profile 8 of the SPX last year. Yeah, it was an advantage on the straights but people weren't screaming to ban it. They went out and bought one. Now people want to ban Tekin's ? Does that mean when LRP comes out with their new SXX, and KO, Novak and the others come out with their equivalents later in the season, they will be banned also ? That's a great idea ! Lets ban any new design or technology. That includes batteries, chassis, tires, everything. That will really keep the manufactures in the sport.

How about just setting a price limit. If LRP can give me a better ESC for $100 - $150 let them do that. We can't inhibit technical growth, we should just limit what they charge for it. Same with batteries, servos and motors, set reasonable limits and let the manufacturers see what they can give us. After a few weeks one will stand out and earn our business with a low cost product. It would be nice if my kid and his friends could afford to race again.
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Old 01-29-2010, 04:18 AM   #15
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Spec racing now is the true definition of racing. Not a cheater class by far. Yes it may be discouraging to the new guy entering the hobby but that is where the 21.5 motor and a non advanced ESC or a restricted ESC comes in to effect. People wine and cry cause it costs too much. If you want to be in the most popular class and be competitive then you must pay to get there. People say there is no skill involved now with the advanced ESCs. Ha they are wrong you still have to get the car around the track and not hit stuff. I have been around racing near all my life. Nascar,open wheel,and rc cars. This is no different from any other form of racing. You must pay to play and pay more to go fast. If you look at the big races and see where all the big turnouts are it would be spec class not mod. Mod is a dieing class if you ask me. Heck 13.5 is just as fast.
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