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Old 12-15-2009, 09:06 AM   #16
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You can also try reducing your overall steering throw and trying to add back in the steering you lost through the chassis a little at a time.
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Old 12-15-2009, 09:44 AM   #17
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You can work in to directions.
The first is making the car more stiffer.
The second give the car more flex.
The first will give you more corner speed but you can still have grip roll.
The second will almost eliminate the grip roll but your car will dig in and is slower in the corners.

The mi4 is not the solution against grip roll.
It's all in the setup.
I have a Photon and last Sunday I was having a little bit of grip roll. I solved it by gluing the tires.
This solved it.
Last final I was having no grip roll. It was close but no problems with it.
The car was faster than before.

The car that is having almost grip roll is faster than a car that has 0 problems with grip roll.
The car without it drives easier but the car loses to much speed in the corners.

Some drivers make there car very stiff, this works but makes the car also tricky. When it goes it goes all the way.

Lower the steering travel. this way you also get less grip roll. You will lose some steer but you ca get it back by making the car in the back some looser.

If you have a choice in tires, get tires with a low rubber side.
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Old 12-15-2009, 10:50 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jochim_18 View Post
Softening up your suspension on a high grip track will cause you car to traction roll more. Perhaps you might wanna go Stiffer Springs, Oil and standing up your shocks Front and Back.... Rule of thumb.
I couldn't disagree more. Softening up suspension delays the maximum cornering load, thus delaying the traction roll. I won't bore everyone with a rehash of the Type-R thread, but my traction rolling issue is well documented over there and the things we did to cure it worked quite well.

Your suggestion to stiffen the suspension assumes that the tire's traction can be breached at some point during the corner. However, B18C Turbo lives in New England, land of spec rubber tire touring cars on CRC carpet and odorless traction compounds. The bite there is literally sticky, and breaching that is next to impossible.

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Originally Posted by Racecrafter View Post
Stiffen up your sway bars front and rear equally. If you go one step up front go up to the next step in the rear also.
Letting the car roll is also key to preventing the outside tires from reaching maximum loading, so adding roll stiffness is completely backwards.

Guys, consider this. What does a touring car do in the moment right before it traction rolls? It bicycles. That two wheeled circus stunt places the entire weight of the car on the two outside tires. With weight comes traction. That traction spike flips the car over. Doing anything that reduces droop, constricts suspension movement, or otherwise quickens tire loading is counterproductive.

Some of the more important things I did to cure my traction roll (and win) on carpet with rubber tires:
-lay the shocks down
-reduce camber
-reduce roll stiffness (springs and swaybars)
-adjust dampening to delay maximum loading (in my case, I had to increase front dampening to get through the sweeper without traction rolling, used a ton of rebound to improve transitional response)
-lower roll centers
-reduce caster (Paulie's trick)
-add droop to all four corners (thanks Fairtrace)
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Old 12-15-2009, 11:48 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jochim_18 View Post
Softening up your suspension on a high grip track will cause you car to traction roll more. Perhaps you might wanna go Stiffer Springs, Oil and standing up your shocks Front and Back.... Rule of thumb.

High Bite = Stiffer Suspension, Stiffer Chassis
High Bite = Higher Roll Center (Longer Link)
High Bite = More Rear Toe in angle
High Bite = Lower Ride Height (4.5mm - 5.0mm)

Low Bite = Softer Suspension, You need chassis to Flex (More Mechanical Grip)
Low Bite =Lower Roll Center (Shorter Link)
Low Bite = Less Rear Toe In angle
Low Bite = Higher Ride Height ( 5.0mm - 6.00mm)

Their is a lot of option to setup your car to prevent traction roll but stiffer chassis and stiffer your suspension should be the first one you wanna work on your car assuming your racing on carpet.

Follow the setup up above as a starting point on high bite track and work from their. I learn that setting up your car with someone else setup will not always work because each of us drives different. Setting up your own car is always the way to go this also teaches you how it affect the car on small changes and how it react to those changes when driving it.
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Old 12-15-2009, 11:52 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Sharpe View Post
I couldn't disagree more. Softening up suspension delays the maximum cornering load, thus delaying the traction roll. I won't bore everyone with a rehash of the Type-R thread, but my traction rolling issue is well documented over there and the things we did to cure it worked quite well.

Your suggestion to stiffen the suspension assumes that the tire's traction can be breached at some point during the corner. However, B18C Turbo lives in New England, land of spec rubber tire touring cars on CRC carpet and odorless traction compounds. The bite there is literally sticky, and breaching that is next to impossible.


Letting the car roll is also key to preventing the outside tires from reaching maximum loading, so adding roll stiffness is completely backwards.

Guys, consider this. What does a touring car do in the moment right before it traction rolls? It bicycles. That two wheeled circus stunt places the entire weight of the car on the two outside tires. With weight comes traction. That traction spike flips the car over. Doing anything that reduces droop, constricts suspension movement, or otherwise quickens tire loading is counterproductive.

Some of the more important things I did to cure my traction roll (and win) on carpet with rubber tires:
-lay the shocks down
-reduce camber
-reduce roll stiffness (springs and swaybars)
-adjust dampening to delay maximum loading (in my case, I had to increase front dampening to get through the sweeper without traction rolling, used a ton of rebound to improve transitional response)
-lower roll centers
-reduce caster (Paulie's trick)
-add droop to all four corners (thanks Fairtrace)
+1

Everyone saying raise the roll center or stiffen the car has not driven on a track with extreme traction using Jack the Gripper. The cars going to lean in a corner and if it can't guess what happens?

Soften the car to let it roll. Anti-dive does help in this situation.

#1 GLUE TIRE SIDEWALLS.
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Old 12-15-2009, 12:13 PM   #21
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Gluing the sidewalls is a band aid fix. There's plenty of other solutions in this thread that will actually help fix the problem. As mentioned before gluing sidewalls is a last resort when all else fails...
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Old 12-15-2009, 12:22 PM   #22
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Ive been reading this thread an now im confused. Which is it...soften the car up or stiffen it? There seems to be conflicting opinions.
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Old 12-15-2009, 12:38 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jammincrtjames View Post
Ive been reading this thread an now im confused. Which is it...soften the car up or stiffen it? There seems to be conflicting opinions.
Softening up the car will increase traction, but can make the car seem squishy and hard to drive if it's too soft. Stiffening the car (especially the front of the car) even just a spring rate may be enough to keep the front front digging in and rolling as well as add stability to the car overall. Stiffening up the front will reduce steering somewhat but when a car's traction rolling usually it has plenty of steering, lol.
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Old 12-15-2009, 12:44 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Sharpe View Post
I couldn't disagree more. Softening up suspension delays the maximum cornering load, thus delaying the traction roll. I won't bore everyone with a rehash of the Type-R thread, but my traction rolling issue is well documented over there and the things we did to cure it worked quite well.

Your suggestion to stiffen the suspension assumes that the tire's traction can be breached at some point during the corner. However, B18C Turbo lives in New England, land of spec rubber tire touring cars on CRC carpet and odorless traction compounds. The bite there is literally sticky, and breaching that is next to impossible.


Letting the car roll is also key to preventing the outside tires from reaching maximum loading, so adding roll stiffness is completely backwards.

Guys, consider this. What does a touring car do in the moment right before it traction rolls? It bicycles. That two wheeled circus stunt places the entire weight of the car on the two outside tires. With weight comes traction. That traction spike flips the car over. Doing anything that reduces droop, constricts suspension movement, or otherwise quickens tire loading is counterproductive.

Some of the more important things I did to cure my traction roll (and win) on carpet with rubber tires:
-lay the shocks down
-reduce camber
-reduce roll stiffness (springs and swaybars)
-adjust dampening to delay maximum loading (in my case, I had to increase front dampening to get through the sweeper without traction rolling, used a ton of rebound to improve transitional response)
-lower roll centers
-reduce caster (Paulie's trick)
-add droop to all four corners (thanks Fairtrace)

+2
Soften the suspension so that it can absorb the cornering load and not put it into the wheels/tires. A stiffer suspension transfers that load right to the tire and over you go ....
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Old 12-15-2009, 12:49 PM   #25
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I agree with Greg Sharpe. Soften the rear suspension to reduce traction roll.
I know this to be true because when setting up my last car with a different type of shocks I kept trying stiffer and stiffer set-ups until I started to traction roll, then I backed it up a bit. I've also seen it work with other vehicles. It's correct for all the reasons Greg stated.
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Old 12-15-2009, 12:51 PM   #26
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My post wasn't a jab at the "stiffer" crowd, it's just that they haven't raced on odorless compund ONLY carpet tracks where B18C is racing. The surface is unique and does not take well to the established asphalt methods of stiffening to reducing traction rolling.
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Old 12-15-2009, 12:54 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jag88 View Post
+2
Soften the suspension so that it can absorb the cornering load and not put it into the wheels/tires. A stiffer suspension transfers that load right to the tire and over you go ....

This is true to a point, but you can also be too soft just as you can be too stiff.
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Old 12-15-2009, 01:10 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Sharpe View Post
My post wasn't a jab at the "stiffer" crowd, it's just that they haven't raced on odorless compund ONLY carpet tracks where B18C is racing. The surface is unique and does not take well to the established asphalt methods of stiffening to reducing traction rolling.
RCE is a paragon track actually.
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Old 12-15-2009, 01:12 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by trerc View Post
Softening up the car will increase traction, but can make the car seem squishy and hard to drive if it's too soft. Stiffening the car (especially the front of the car) even just a spring rate may be enough to keep the front front digging in and rolling as well as add stability to the car overall. Stiffening up the front will reduce steering somewhat but when a car's traction rolling usually it has plenty of steering, lol.
When traction is very high, the stiffer car will lift easier since there is no where for the weight to transfer. IF you happen to be at a point where stiffer will let the car break traction at turn-in, then its the right move, but chances are, on high grip carpet this is not going to happen, so your next option is to absorb some of that transferred weight by the suspension.
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Old 12-15-2009, 01:45 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeXray View Post
Get a Mi4.
This is kind of funny. The only guy at our track who has traction roll problems is running an Mi4.

Photon - Good
TC5 - Good
RDX - Good
T3 - Good
Mi4 - Traction roll
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