Brushless Myths from Trinity
09-02-2006, 10:26 AM
#61
Originally Posted by ErnieP
I am a still trying to find out who runs "a stock equivalent" brushless system in serious competition :-)
I have seen Co27's at mail-order houses in the $20-$26 range
I have seen Co27's at mail-order houses in the $20-$26 range
Well you should stop trying to find out because:
1. it's a waste of time...it's not ROAR legal yet.
2. many prospective bl customers may have been wrongly influenced by your negative brushless bashing you did in the magazines.
09-02-2006, 10:42 AM
#62
Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart
A (1) stock brushless equivalent seems like a good idea. But what happens when competition develops, and you have 5 manufacturers with stock equivalents competing against one another to produce the best motor?
I have heard many "motor of the week" complaints in the past. I don't think many would be happy if there $100 "last forever" brushless motor was made obsolete overnight by a faster model.
I have heard many "motor of the week" complaints in the past. I don't think many would be happy if there $100 "last forever" brushless motor was made obsolete overnight by a faster model.
Look at the new stock motor`s being release every 6 months , don`t they obsolete the guy who just brought last months hot new stock brush motor ?
And
How can the beginner be attracted to a class that requires lathe`s , a big-O-bag of brush`s, a dyno and not mention the dark secrets of motor tuning ?
That along is hurting the sport of stock , it stops beginner`s from racing more....
Lets gets the program rolling and stop this talk of seperate class`s just to protect a obsolete motor design....
More new racer`s are the bread & butter for our sport, lets get them back with a better design that makes racing easier & less expensive for um..
09-02-2006, 10:54 AM
#64
Tech Adept
forbidden....
Thats your opinion and I have mine...thats whats great about the USA
But I think "quite a few people" were upset "developing a brushless system" for a manufacturer with their "own hard-earned cash"
Again...there were no myths in that statement.
No 2 brushless run the same, they need maitenance like any electric motor does, they do short out etc etc
My comments were "IN RESPONSE" to a manufacturer who was claiming his brushless system did not do these things. I just did not volunteer the information....despite what you may think...I dont have that much free time on my hands
Thats your opinion and I have mine...thats whats great about the USA
But I think "quite a few people" were upset "developing a brushless system" for a manufacturer with their "own hard-earned cash"
Again...there were no myths in that statement.
No 2 brushless run the same, they need maitenance like any electric motor does, they do short out etc etc
My comments were "IN RESPONSE" to a manufacturer who was claiming his brushless system did not do these things. I just did not volunteer the information....despite what you may think...I dont have that much free time on my hands
09-02-2006, 11:05 AM
#65
Originally Posted by ErnieP
forbidden....
Thats your opinion and I have mine...thats whats great about the USA
But I think "quite a few people" were upset "developing a brushless system" for a manufacturer with their "own hard-earned cash"
Again...there were no myths in that statement.
No 2 brushless run the same, they need maitenance like any electric motor does, they do short out etc etc
My comments were "IN RESPONSE" to a manufacturer who was claiming his brushless system did not do these things. I just did not volunteer the information....despite what you may think...I dont have that much free time on my hands
Thats your opinion and I have mine...thats whats great about the USA
But I think "quite a few people" were upset "developing a brushless system" for a manufacturer with their "own hard-earned cash"
Again...there were no myths in that statement.
No 2 brushless run the same, they need maitenance like any electric motor does, they do short out etc etc
My comments were "IN RESPONSE" to a manufacturer who was claiming his brushless system did not do these things. I just did not volunteer the information....despite what you may think...I dont have that much free time on my hands
No one asked for your "response".
What you did by publicly bad mouthing and trashing another company's product is exactlty the same as a politician playing dirty campaign tactics.
An honorable politican emphasizes his/her own qualities...he/she does not bad mouth the competitor.
The same logic applies to manufacturers.
09-02-2006, 11:10 AM
#66
We locally have switched to SS4300/Orion Lipo class in sedan . It seems to really have taken off. I know there are always production tolerances etc. so there will be small differences in performance, but nothing like the differnces between stock/19t motors and someone running used 3300 pack opposed to a 1.99 volt 4200. I could buy 5 of the same type of stock motor and I'd bet I would get 2 or 3 that were ok, 1 good and maybe 1 bad one. I'm kinda tired of doing that.
No disrespect to Ernie..I've used Trinity motors for 10 years or so...but technology is just advancing and it's time to move on.
No disrespect to Ernie..I've used Trinity motors for 10 years or so...but technology is just advancing and it's time to move on.
09-02-2006, 11:27 AM
#67
WILD CHERRY - stock motors every six months? are you saying from trinity? just because trinity has released 2 stock motors in the last 6 months doesn't mean they do it every 6 months.
ERNIE P. - can you list the date/year when the Monster stock and EPIC Roar stock were released.
once we see the spread it should end the stock motor of the week, every 6 months, and other excessive counterpoints on stock motors. now the CO27 and X motor are replacing those.
ERNIE P. - can you list the date/year when the Monster stock and EPIC Roar stock were released.
once we see the spread it should end the stock motor of the week, every 6 months, and other excessive counterpoints on stock motors. now the CO27 and X motor are replacing those.
09-02-2006, 11:36 AM
#68
This thread is out of hand. If you don't like a companies products,tactics, or representitives simply don't buy the product or service.
Ernie: Do what you do. You are one of the original's and you are in BUSINESS to make money. Why everyone forgets this I don't know.
Brushless systems today simply don't have the ability to be tech'd as well as a brushed motor can. They haven't been around long enough. Pitting a brushed stock motor against a brushless "stock" motor is not right simply do to the brushless motors efficiency. A brushless motor rides on ball bearings where current stock motors do not. The current brushless "stock" systems have speeds comparable to a 19T in my experience.
I feel that the mod class can be mixed since it's up to the discretion of the racer to choose systems. However this will be a problem when the costs of "unatainable" systems are not reasonable. SO, my idea would be to limit the retail price of the "systems." Add the cost of the Esc/brushed motor combo to a brushless esc/motor combo. Say $500 retail. This should cover most brushless systems and easily cover the brushed.
For those of you who are whining about the price of brushed motors and their upkeep, wah.
Nobody made you race this class. My mod motors regularly require less maintenance to go fast. Hell 19T offroad is probably the easiest class to upkeep since they are easy on motors and batteries. It has good speed and is slower then mod.
As far as racing goes there will always be a better product on the horizon, that's racing. The companies will all fight for YOUR BUSINESS to sell the better product.
Most people can't tell between business and the hobby end. Don't bash Ernie because this is his business, not just his hobby.
Ernie: Do what you do. You are one of the original's and you are in BUSINESS to make money. Why everyone forgets this I don't know.
Brushless systems today simply don't have the ability to be tech'd as well as a brushed motor can. They haven't been around long enough. Pitting a brushed stock motor against a brushless "stock" motor is not right simply do to the brushless motors efficiency. A brushless motor rides on ball bearings where current stock motors do not. The current brushless "stock" systems have speeds comparable to a 19T in my experience.
I feel that the mod class can be mixed since it's up to the discretion of the racer to choose systems. However this will be a problem when the costs of "unatainable" systems are not reasonable. SO, my idea would be to limit the retail price of the "systems." Add the cost of the Esc/brushed motor combo to a brushless esc/motor combo. Say $500 retail. This should cover most brushless systems and easily cover the brushed.
For those of you who are whining about the price of brushed motors and their upkeep, wah.
Nobody made you race this class. My mod motors regularly require less maintenance to go fast. Hell 19T offroad is probably the easiest class to upkeep since they are easy on motors and batteries. It has good speed and is slower then mod.As far as racing goes there will always be a better product on the horizon, that's racing. The companies will all fight for YOUR BUSINESS to sell the better product.
Most people can't tell between business and the hobby end. Don't bash Ernie because this is his business, not just his hobby.
09-02-2006, 11:43 AM
#69
there have been some posts of disappointed BL drivers, especially when they found out something is comming out faster right after they just got their BL 6.5, etc.
Novak for example has released faster and faster BL motors recently. what are the release dates. maybe that would fit a shorter timeline than the stock motor releases that some cling to.
just went to the Novak site...which one is faster?
GTB/Velociti 3.5R This is ideal for customers wanting Novak's fastest brushless motor and for top-level competition touring car applications.(#3000)
Velociti 4.5R This is the fastest Velociti motor and is ideal for competition touring cars (#3404/#3001)
PS, i use a novak charger and GTX ESCs
Novak for example has released faster and faster BL motors recently. what are the release dates. maybe that would fit a shorter timeline than the stock motor releases that some cling to.
just went to the Novak site...which one is faster?
GTB/Velociti 3.5R This is ideal for customers wanting Novak's fastest brushless motor and for top-level competition touring car applications.(#3000)
Velociti 4.5R This is the fastest Velociti motor and is ideal for competition touring cars (#3404/#3001)
PS, i use a novak charger and GTX ESCs
09-02-2006, 11:56 AM
#70
and......not to seem biased, Trinity is constantly/quickly updating their mod motors than most other manufacturers. Which i undertand when it comes to them, Novak, or any other motor makers/resellers. new technology isn't ROAR legal unless readily available to the masses. i have seen racers get upset over this, especially when they buy Cobalt mod and saw the news flash about the Cobalt-2 series. for me i wouldn't notice the difference of the same wind between these two motors, others may?
Last edited by fast-ho-cars; 09-02-2006 at 12:30 PM.
09-02-2006, 12:12 PM
#71
Originally Posted by dodgeguy
Well have ROAR then should set some rules for stock brushless. The manufactors make the motors to the rules. I would dump my brushed stock motors any day to run brushless. 
The oval scene is loving the 4300 class
The oval scene is loving the 4300 class
so my question is: at major events do they tear down the top 3 in 4300 type classes. if not....to me that would be like running a Cobalt-2 19T arm in a K19 and only getting checked for ohms/resistance.
Last edited by fast-ho-cars; 09-02-2006 at 01:00 PM.
09-02-2006, 01:21 PM
#73
Originally Posted by CIVIC91
No disrespect to Ernie..I've used Trinity motors for 10 years or so...but technology is just advancing and it's time to move on.
There will always be people who will try to stifle technological advancement...primarily those who have a vested interest in the status quo.
09-02-2006, 02:02 PM
#74
interesting discussion
my 2 cents
I have been racing for a long time and the thing I hate the most is tearing down and cleaning brushed motors. (I clean motors after 8-10 runs, I'm lazy) All racers who are consistently fast rebuild their motors every 1-2 runs. It takes about 15-20 minutes to take the motor out of the car, rebuilt it, and put it back into the car. This is for 5 minutes of racing.
I recently started to practice with brushless and the difference is night and day. You can run as soon as the batteries are charged. You can spend the time during the battery charge setting up your car. After the big suspension changes, it's the little changes that make all of the difference, and the little changes are specific to the track, temperature, etc.
I have no gripes with the racer that rebuilds their motor after each run, tears down the car after each race day, and in general gets the car as fast as possible. I just don't want to be that racer.
In terms of cheating, how can you stop 100% of the cheating, and is there any point in doing it? It is amazing how personally insulted people are when someone cheats. If you know or suspect someone is cheating, the race organizer should flag them and check their gear at random. Otherwise, why postpone technology because someone might cheat.
All this talk about how you will have to buy new motors to keep up is ridiculous. How far apart are the stock, 19t, and mod lap times at a national race? I know where I race, most racers would have trouble driving an 8 or lower turn equivalent motor, not to mention how those motors tear up cars.
Stop the whining and name calling and blaming, brushless and lipo are the future, and the sooner they gain universal acceptance, the better. They will help all racers except those who only win because they are 5% faster from having the cleanest and best tuned brushed motors and batteries.
I have been racing for a long time and the thing I hate the most is tearing down and cleaning brushed motors. (I clean motors after 8-10 runs, I'm lazy) All racers who are consistently fast rebuild their motors every 1-2 runs. It takes about 15-20 minutes to take the motor out of the car, rebuilt it, and put it back into the car. This is for 5 minutes of racing.
I recently started to practice with brushless and the difference is night and day. You can run as soon as the batteries are charged. You can spend the time during the battery charge setting up your car. After the big suspension changes, it's the little changes that make all of the difference, and the little changes are specific to the track, temperature, etc.
I have no gripes with the racer that rebuilds their motor after each run, tears down the car after each race day, and in general gets the car as fast as possible. I just don't want to be that racer.
In terms of cheating, how can you stop 100% of the cheating, and is there any point in doing it? It is amazing how personally insulted people are when someone cheats. If you know or suspect someone is cheating, the race organizer should flag them and check their gear at random. Otherwise, why postpone technology because someone might cheat.
All this talk about how you will have to buy new motors to keep up is ridiculous. How far apart are the stock, 19t, and mod lap times at a national race? I know where I race, most racers would have trouble driving an 8 or lower turn equivalent motor, not to mention how those motors tear up cars.
Stop the whining and name calling and blaming, brushless and lipo are the future, and the sooner they gain universal acceptance, the better. They will help all racers except those who only win because they are 5% faster from having the cleanest and best tuned brushed motors and batteries.