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-   -   Tamiya mini cooper (https://www.rctech.net/forum/electric-road/20068-tamiya-mini-cooper.html)

sosidge 09-05-2017 01:06 PM

Anti-squat

monkeyracing 09-05-2017 03:21 PM


Originally Posted by sosidge (Post 15021711)
Anti-squat

Anti-squat on a mini? Never even considered that before. Wow.

howardcano 09-05-2017 04:26 PM


Originally Posted by monkeyracing (Post 15021814)
Anti-squat on a mini? Never even considered that before. Wow.

The text you quoted in your previous post said it was for the rear suspension. So it wouldn't be for anti-squat, since the Mini is FWD; there are no acceleration or braking forces on the rear wheels.

gigaplex 09-05-2017 05:24 PM


Originally Posted by howardcano (Post 15021878)
The text you quoted in your previous post said it was for the rear suspension. So it wouldn't be for anti-squat, since the Mini is FWD; there are no acceleration or braking forces on the rear wheels.

The rear still squats under acceleration in a FWD car as weight transfers to the rear. It's also confusing if you change the terms of the suspension angles just because of the driveline type. What would you call it instead in a FWD car?

Greg Sharpe 09-05-2017 05:26 PM


Originally Posted by 1vwguru (Post 15019076)
... what is weight of m07 complete to run ...

It's about 50 grams lighter with the same equipment, which is a TON.

tvih 09-05-2017 05:35 PM

Still reading up on things on various threads.. seems there's no real consensus on M-05 vs M-07. Some say the -05 is/can be as fast, others seem to think the -07 is flat out superior in every conceivable way... ugh. Of course, there is only one version of -07 so far while "out of the box" there's the stock M-05 which is bound to be lackluster, then the slightly better Pro, and the "ultimate" R version. I would assume that the comparisons are for hopped up versions. The -07 seems to be about on the level of the -05 Pro as far as parts? So far given my preferred bodies are 210mm I am leaning towards the R, but admittedly the price is getting to be more than I originally intended. Yet, rather good and pricey than cheap and bad.

gigaplex 09-05-2017 06:07 PM


Originally Posted by tvih (Post 15021933)
Still reading up on things on various threads.. seems there's no real consensus on M-05 vs M-07. Some say the -05 is/can be as fast, others seem to think the -07 is flat out superior in every conceivable way... ugh. Of course, there is only one version of -07 so far while "out of the box" there's the stock M-05 which is bound to be lackluster, then the slightly better Pro, and the "ultimate" R version. I would assume that the comparisons are for hopped up versions. The -07 seems to be about on the level of the -05 Pro as far as parts? So far given my preferred bodies are 210mm I am leaning towards the R, but admittedly the price is getting to be more than I originally intended. Yet, rather good and pricey than cheap and bad.

I've got both the 05 R and the 07. The 07 feels much nicer to drive, but it's not translating into better laptimes yet. I'm still a bit quicker with my 05. I'm sure the 07 has more to give, it's still at pure box stock setup. I've had to add an oil gear diff to the 05 to get it competitive though (not sure if that's legal where you race), so value wise I'd go for the 07. The 05 also handled like crap out of the box, it took some time to break in (with no setup changes).

If 210mm bodies are your thing, get the 05 R. You can always get an 07 down the line (they're not that expensive) if they do eventually start to pull ahead of the competition, and transfer some of the nice parts over from the 05 (such as the alloy shock bodies).

Scargoes 09-05-2017 06:19 PM


Originally Posted by howardcano (Post 15021878)
The text you quoted in your previous post said it was for the rear suspension. So it wouldn't be for anti-squat, since the Mini is FWD; there are no acceleration or braking forces on the rear wheels.

From wikipedia-

Anti-dive and anti-squat are percentages that indicate the degree to which the front dives under braking and the rear squats under acceleration. They can be thought of as the counterparts for braking and acceleration, as jacking forces are to cornering. The main reason for the difference is due to the different design goals between front and rear suspension, whereas suspension is usually symmetrical between the left and right of the vehicle.
And Carroll Smith says the same thing in his racing books.

howardcano 09-05-2017 07:37 PM


Originally Posted by gigaplex (Post 15021929)
The rear still squats under acceleration in a FWD car as weight transfers to the rear. It's also confusing if you change the terms of the suspension angles just because of the driveline type. What would you call it instead in a FWD car?

Yes, the car still squats under acceleration. However, anti-squat, which is an arrangement of the suspension that uses the forces from the tire patch being pushed forward by the motor when accelerating, is useless on the rear end of a front-wheel-drive car, since there is no force pushing the tire patch forward.

gigaplex 09-05-2017 07:51 PM


Originally Posted by howardcano (Post 15022047)
Yes, the car still squats under acceleration. However, anti-squat, which is an arrangement of the suspension that uses the forces from the tire patch being pushed forward by the motor when accelerating, is useless on the rear end of a front-wheel-drive car, since there is no force pushing the tire patch forward.

Whether or not the adjustment is useless in this situation is debatable (it arguably improves the ability for the suspension to handle bumps as some of the force of impact pushes horizontally as well as vertically), but I'm still wondering what you'd call the adjustment if you had to give it a name.

howardcano 09-05-2017 07:51 PM


Originally Posted by Scargoes (Post 15021975)
From wikipedia-
Anti-dive and anti-squat are percentages that indicate the degree to which the front dives under braking and the rear squats under acceleration.

This definition is incorrect. The correct terms are "dive" and "squat". "Anti-dive" and "anti-dive" would be the REDUCTION of dive and squat accomplished by an arrangement of the suspension links. This could be expressed as a percentage. So let's correct the above paragraph:

Dive and squat indicate the degree to which the front dives under braking and the rear squats under acceleration.

Anti-dive and anti-squat refer to a method to lessen the amount of dive or squat, or the amount that dive or squat is lessened, during braking and acceleration. (This could also be accomplished by an active suspension.)

Keep in mind that the weight transfer due to acceleration forces in any direction, longitudinally or laterally, occur on any car that has a center-of-gravity which is above ground level, regardless of any suspension system (and even with no suspension whatsoever).

howardcano 09-05-2017 07:56 PM


Originally Posted by gigaplex (Post 15022058)
Whether or not the adjustment is useless in this situation is debatable (it arguably improves the ability for the suspension to handle bumps as some of the force of impact pushes horizontally as well as vertically), but I'm still wondering what you'd call the adjustment if you had to give it a name.

The suspension is VERY useful in all cases. Anti-squat is useless for reducing squat on an undriven wheel. The arrangement may have other positive benefits.

Similar angles are used on the front suspension of rear-wheel-drive offroad RC cars, and they can be very useful. In that case it is referred to as "kick-up". In this case, if the wheel were driven, we could call it "pro-dive", since braking would push the wheel backwards and upwards relative to the chassis.

gigaplex 09-05-2017 08:05 PM


Originally Posted by howardcano (Post 15022063)
The suspension is VERY useful in all cases. Anti-squat is useless for reducing squat on an undriven wheel. The arrangement may have other positive benefits.

Similar angles are used on the front suspension of rear-wheel-drive offroad RC cars, and they can be very useful. In that case it is referred to as "kick-up". In this case, if the wheel were driven, we could call it "pro-dive", since braking would push the wheel backwards and upwards relative to the chassis.

You still haven't answered my question of what name you want us to use in place of anti squat to refer to the rear hinge pins having a non-horizontal angle for this car.

howardcano 09-05-2017 08:08 PM


Originally Posted by gigaplex (Post 15022076)
You still haven't answered my question of what name you want us to use in place of anti squat to refer to the rear hinge pins having a non-horizontal angle for this car.

"Kick-up" would be appropriate. There likely are other names in use, though I don't know of anything other than "kick-up".

RC Suspension Tuning Guide ? Kickup

Here's a page that actually does call it "pro-dive". And they got the arrangement backwards!:
Tamiya Suspension Mount Ultimate setting Guide and charts | The RC Racer

gigaplex 09-05-2017 08:18 PM


Originally Posted by howardcano (Post 15022077)
"Kick-up" would be appropriate. There likely are other names in use, though I don't know of anything other than "kick-up".

RC Suspension Tuning Guide ? Kickup

I've only ever seen kickup used to refer to the front hinge pins, and that link you posted also only refers to the front hinge pins.

The same guide says this about anti-squat

RC Suspension Tuning Guide ? Anti Squat/

They refer to it as the angle of the rear hinge pins.

I can see why you'd object to it being used to prevent squat on this car, but the term anti-squat is commonly used to describe the angle of the rear hinge pins.


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