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Old 01-09-2008, 08:09 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by jiml View Post
You're really making a strong argument for character limits in posts!

There's one flaw in your argument, and that is equipment does make a difference. What most people don't understand is equipment is a much smaller part of the equasion that skill is.

At a 1/12 race last year, I went through 3 qualifiers squeezing as much power as I could out of my motor and batteries. I had very consistent lap times, but those lap times were a second or better off the pace. For the mains I asked our local "pro" driver (not really a pro but he is by far the fastest) if could borrow one of his motors. The first thing he says is "are you sure it's the motor?" obviously using you argument. I said there's only one way to find out. So he gives me a motor from the bottom of his box that he thinks has 2 runs on it, and will probably do good. I put it in the car, and take my grid spot, 5th in the B. Being an older driver I know from 5th it better to let the 4 cars in front take themselves out than be involved in it yourself When the mayhem cleared I was able to get by for 2nd. The racer in 1st was an A main driver having a bad day. So I settle in for the race, and I'm turning laps a half a second faster than I had all day! About 2 minutes from the end I get tangled in lapped traffic, and the 3rd place car gets by me. A lap later we go into the long back straight and I go past him like he's standing still! I hear him yell "where the heck did he come from???"

One of the most fustrating things in on road is no matter how many classes you have everyone ends up running stock! And with today's cars if you're setup is right you only need to lift a couple times during a lap. I remember running mod 1/12 in the mid 90's when you had to take care of your batteries during the race or you dumped. Figuring out a strategy that worked for you was part of the fun. When that went away, so did part of the soul of RC racing.

In today's world of instant gratification, trying to explain to someone you need to put in a bunch of practice before you can even be considered decent is like talking to a wall. All you ever hear is I want the fastest whatever. Why spend nearly a thousand dollars to race an RC car and not be good at it to start when for two hundred bucks you can get an RTF heli?
I think that flaw if it is one is pretty minor because the situation you were in is more the exception then the rule. That aside though it is still not a flaw in my book because the indication of a very good consistency with less then desireable results clearly points to an equipment issue.
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Old 01-09-2008, 08:20 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Bob-Stormer
Because a perfect car is still perfect with a "slower" motor or soft battery. A bad car or the wrong tires, can be so bad the car is underivable.
I hear you there, but be honest with me. Have you ever dropped a soft battery in your car and noticed a difference, not in consistency but in the times, maybe you are down a tenth or two. That is how I used to decide when I needed new batteries or had to tool on the motor some more. But yes, setup is just as important as the motor and batteries, actually more important as without the proper setup you are not going to get the maximum out of the motor. And I do think a lot of people setup their cars wrong, especially in high bite situations. At least from what I have seen.
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Old 01-09-2008, 08:37 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by jiml View Post
You're really making a strong argument for character limits in posts!

There's one flaw in your argument, and that is equipment does make a difference. What most people don't understand is equipment is a much smaller part of the equasion that skill is.

At a 1/12 race last year, I went through 3 qualifiers squeezing as much power as I could out of my motor and batteries. I had very consistent lap times, but those lap times were a second or better off the pace. For the mains I asked our local "pro" driver (not really a pro but he is by far the fastest) if could borrow one of his motors. The first thing he says is "are you sure it's the motor?" obviously using you argument. I said there's only one way to find out. So he gives me a motor from the bottom of his box that he thinks has 2 runs on it, and will probably do good. I put it in the car, and take my grid spot, 5th in the B. Being an older driver I know from 5th it better to let the 4 cars in front take themselves out than be involved in it yourself When the mayhem cleared I was able to get by for 2nd. The racer in 1st was an A main driver having a bad day. So I settle in for the race, and I'm turning laps a half a second faster than I had all day! About 2 minutes from the end I get tangled in lapped traffic, and the 3rd place car gets by me. A lap later we go into the long back straight and I go past him like he's standing still! I hear him yell "where the heck did he come from???"

One of the most fustrating things in on road is no matter how many classes you have everyone ends up running stock! And with today's cars if you're setup is right you only need to lift a couple times during a lap. I remember running mod 1/12 in the mid 90's when you had to take care of your batteries during the race or you dumped. Figuring out a strategy that worked for you was part of the fun. When that went away, so did part of the soul of RC racing.

In today's world of instant gratification, trying to explain to someone you need to put in a bunch of practice before you can even be considered decent is like talking to a wall. All you ever hear is I want the fastest whatever. Why spend nearly a thousand dollars to race an RC car and not be good at it to start when for two hundred bucks you can get an RTF heli?
If you were a second off at a local event. My guess is that every piece of your puzzle needed a bit of work. Including the motor. And it's believed by a lot of people I respect, that the 3rd run on a stock rebuild is the best, hence your digging the motor. Look at your puzzle, and the next time you're running stock, stick to your rebuild regiment, but ONLY make changes to the car. Don't even change the rollout (assuming it's close). Don't just assume that because everybody runs a magenta, you should run a magenta. Or if everybody else is running .045 springs you should to.

What happens to club racers, is the race itself becomes of such importance (and it is important), that most people don't take the necessary time to really try things. And usually it's because they don't have the time. If you're 1 second off, you will never go as fast as you could, until you REALLY aren't afraid to take dead last.

Used to be that club racing was where you went with your friends to drive and have fun, share setups and learn. And then go to the big shows to see how you're doing. Seems as though more and more, it's ONLY about the club race. And people get pretty twisted up over the wins and losses at that level.

A car that is tight for me is loose for my son. Completely different driving styles. I'll try his car, it's almost perfect, I give it back to him... It's loose, you can see it as he drives it... It actually looks hard to drive, maybe even tweaked. I drive it again... perfect.

Always assume your car could be better, and you'll probably be right. Slap a 19turn in that thing, can you make it go 2-3 laps faster? If not, it's very likely that a faster (and it's a relative term) stock motor isn't going to help. If the car won't go faster with virtually unlimited power, then you're up against a different issue. A car that's easy to drive is easy to drive, fast or slow.
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Old 01-09-2008, 08:41 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by trilerian View Post
I hear you there, but be honest with me. Have you ever dropped a soft battery in your car and noticed a difference, not in consistency but in the times, maybe you are down a tenth or two. That is how I used to decide when I needed new batteries or had to tool on the motor some more. But yes, setup is just as important as the motor and batteries, actually more important as without the proper setup you are not going to get the maximum out of the motor. And I do think a lot of people setup their cars wrong, especially in high bite situations. At least from what I have seen.
Yes, i absolutely agree, I have soft batterys of my own.

A lot of this is comparing your best efforts to your BEST efforts. If you know you have a soft pack in the car, you've got a problem with that piece of the puzzle. Nobody puts a soft pack in and expects to win the show. But if that's all you change, and the rest of the puzzle is good, BAMMO, you have targeted your week area, as you've mentioned.

You gotta get rid of that pack!!!
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Old 01-09-2008, 09:03 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Bob-Stormer View Post
One of the coolest things for me on these pages is Terry Rott. Rott ran a better consistency in mod than in stock. And there were 5 guys with faster lap times, but Rott brought home the "B" win with excellent driving. Then, Tosso’ laying down a .276 consistency in the heat of the A-main to win. That’s pressure, and a killer run. In the Mod A-main, 4 guys were able to turn a faster lap than Tosso’ He just out drove everybody, super consistent.

Also, Rott ended up 6th in the stock 1/12th main, with THEE slowest car in the main, and by a fair distance he was slower over a 1/10th. He drove the wheels off it, fair and square. He was missing some minor piece of the puzzle with the car. But earned it.

Yep, Terry rott is a wheel, a great person to learn RC from, a pain in the butt, and a guy who makes me try harder every week when I race with him! Terry has taught me soo much in RC that I really respect him allot, others who know him do too. He is totally due for a big win! He is the most accurate driver I know along with Chuck Lonergan and Im proud to be able to try to beat him at our local track. Terry if you read this- I got a brushless now so watch out
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Old 01-09-2008, 10:20 PM   #21
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Bob, way to much good info flowing from your key board lately!

Keep it coming, but save some good stories for Regionals and Nationals in March. I've got to have a good reason to drive way to many miles in the Stealth Van to race toy cars!!
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Old 01-09-2008, 10:46 PM   #22
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Yep, Terry rott is a wheel, a great person to learn RC from, a pain in the butt, and a guy who makes me try harder every week when I race with him! Terry has taught me soo much in RC that I really respect him allot, others who know him do too. He is totally due for a big win! He is the most accurate driver I know along with Chuck Lonergan and Im proud to be able to try to beat him at our local track. Terry if you read this- I got a brushless now so watch out
Couldn't agree with you more Damon, your dead on!!
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Old 01-09-2008, 11:07 PM   #23
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I've found that one of my biggest causes of inconsistency is other drivers. I don't know why but lapping the slower racers always gives me issues and of course pulling aside for the faster guys affects my consistency too but not to the same extent.

I raced tonight and in my fastest qualifier I was taken out by slower drivers 3 times and had a bobble of my own. I lost about 8-9 seconds total. If I had not have lost that time, I would have qualified for the A Main instead of the B Main.
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Old 01-09-2008, 11:28 PM   #24
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man ill have to print this
“consistency” this is what iv been working on and my car.
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Old 01-10-2008, 12:19 AM   #25
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I've found that one of my biggest causes of inconsistency is other drivers. I don't know why but lapping the slower racers always gives me issues and of course pulling aside for the faster guys affects my consistency too but not to the same extent.

I raced tonight and in my fastest qualifier I was taken out by slower drivers 3 times and had a bobble of my own. I lost about 8-9 seconds total. If I had not have lost that time, I would have qualified for the A Main instead of the B Main.
No way around that either. The real problem is guys that feel every club race is a national event. And to some that don't do any traveling, it is, and it's understandable.

We race with a few guys that just don't care how many times you're lapping them in 8 minutes, (sometimes 10), they gotta race you every time. What they don't realize is that their not holding you off, they're holding you up! big difference. And I've done it on occasion, and I should no better. But I know full well that I'm trying to hold them up . That's tactical, but a different thread topic.

The guys that are 10 laps down will usually seriously blow a corner or two every lap, so it's a bit easier. The tough passes are the guys that are 1-2 laps back. They don't want to give an inch and you're speeds and lines are usually comparable.

What those guys don't realize is the potential jeopardy they put both cars in if you have to follow closely for to many laps. We're not in these things, it's hard for everybody to really be in any kind of control. And the longer you dual for a pass, the more likely it will end with a boo from the crowd, a corner marshal or a broken car. And there's a 50/50 chance it's you that gets the worst of it.

A savvy driver, has to check his ego and realize that he is also risking his car. It's like Golf. More people need to understand "course management". I'm not saying I do this all the time either. I get caught up in the moment, just like the next guy.

Sooner or later though, if you race with the same guys enough, and all are similar in speed, you develop a little courtesy, "Well, Larry's got it dialed tonight..." So you let him go as soon as it's feasible. Announce to him, "Dude, next corner..." He'll know what your talking about, you swing wide, tuck back in, having lost maybe a .1-.2 seconds, and risked nothing. Hopefully he'll return the favor when it's your turn.

Also, the more people that hear that kind of courtesy on the stand, the more they expect it, and work with it. Nobody wants a broken car, and if your 4 laps outta the hunt, be cool about it. Be the driver people want to race with.
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Old 01-10-2008, 04:26 AM   #26
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Some very good info there and nice of you to take the time to post your findings

Being educated from earlier on about lap times it helps you understand a lot, it has me.

In practice I had a known fast guy tag along behind me for a few laps, it tells you where you are going wrong on your lines and/or if you can deal with pressure. Down the straight it can tell you if you're geared right or if you just have a bad motor too. If you have the speed but cant follow them on the infield then it is likely to be a setup issue.

Simple things to do if others around you are as friendly, and that is what club racing should all be about
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Old 01-10-2008, 04:39 AM   #27
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Bob, interesting thread and one which I totally agree with.

What would also be very relevant would be to show the "consistency" in the lower finals.

Personally speaking I normally find that my consistency is very good (when I am on top of the car and the setup), but my raw speed is some way off the top drivers. Most other drivers in my finals at regional/national meetings will have done plenty of single faster laps than me, but I keep up because I can just keep the car rolling around at the same pace.

I would rate myself a good club driver, middling regional driver, and scraping the bottom of the barrel national driver!
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Old 01-10-2008, 08:13 AM   #28
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Bob seriously.

when can we expect the Stormer carpet shootout in your parts put on by you and some Scotty guy?

Your thread about what people want in a race and your commitment to this sport would lend well to a great event.

Am I alone in this?
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Old 01-10-2008, 10:52 AM   #29
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This should be required reading before stepping on the stand...
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Old 01-10-2008, 11:13 AM   #30
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This should be required reading before stepping on the stand...
definately agree.
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