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Old 01-10-2008, 11:46 AM   #31
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Huh, I'm .452 in 1/12 MOD, I guess I don't suck that much after all.. You have done a great job, Bob! I translated it, made it a BIT shorter and posted in our local forum for the "I need a new car to drive faster" guys.
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Old 01-10-2008, 11:59 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Bob-Stormer
Also to get to a .150 would almost mean you didn't peak your pack. or your car "came in" to late. I've got an opinion that .3 is ideal. If a computer perfectly drove a car, likely it would get a .4, I base this on lap times following the voltage curve. So a .150 kind of points to a potential where something wasn't exactly right at the start, and the car came in, "slightly". That's why I think the formula is absolutely best when using your best qualifier. Probably better luck in traffic, your best driving, best gearing, tire and chassis choices, more of the equation was accurate. The mains with rare exception are just not as fast, not as clean, and people in 5-10th do a lot of courtesy driving, raising their error factor.
Didn't see this when you first posted. But I think a .3 is too high at least is 6 cell. Now in 4-cell and 8 minute heats it may be right, but I am still working on that class, but in tc if I can turn a 7.9 in the first couple of laps I can turn at least an 8.0 in the last lap. Also your formula was for the average of your best 20 laps, that allows me to knock off 17-18 laps. Maybe it should be configured for the overall lap average instead of the top 20 lap average. This way at 37 laps I would have a consistency of .346 and at 38 would be .126 this is based on a 305 second finish. And you see, if I took only the top 20 laps of that 38 lap finish I would probably be under .100. But this is all subjective, it can't really be used to compare my times to a guys at a different track, we generally only have 5-6 cars in a heat, the guy at the other track may have more which will cause a different consistency, but it is extremely helpful when comparing yourself to yourself or to another person at your track. Which you have said already, but I am just saying you are right.
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Old 01-10-2008, 11:59 AM   #33
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Once again, Bob, you have a way with words.

I couldn't agree more with what you are saying here. Consistency is something I always strive for. I am not the fastest guy at my local tracks, but often, being consistent allows me to win. Some guys focus only on having the fastest lap, but can't string them together.

There is a quote Eric D. (The Darkside) told me... it goes "To finish first, first you must finish." It's something I try and get across to new racers as they seem to all have the "I need more HP" mentality. It's hard to tell them to go fast, first they must slow down.
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Old 01-10-2008, 12:24 PM   #34
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I posted some thing like this a while ago, but from the other point of view; what is consistency? I am so glad that Bob posted this. This is what I strive for when I practice. I don't get to race but when I am practicing I see what my best lap if for the practice run is. Last week it was a 12.4 and my average was mid 13's. I have some work to do, but I think if i keep this approach I will only get better

And yes for anyone who is looking to race or to get better (ME ) this should be how they approach the track every time they lay their car down.
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Old 01-10-2008, 12:47 PM   #35
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I posted some thing like this a while ago, but from the other point of view; what is consistency? I am so glad that Bob posted this. This is what I strive for when I practice. I don't get to race but when I am practicing I see what my best lap if for the practice run is. Last week it was a 12.4 and my average was mid 13's. I have some work to do, but I think if i keep this approach I will only get better

And yes for anyone who is looking to race or to get better (ME ) this should be how they approach the track every time they lay their car down.
Here's the angle as it pertains to your lap times, and people forget this.

There is some assuming here, but it's a thought. remember to think of this as you would golf. It's all about "course management".

The numbers aren't quite as important as the thought surrounding it. Let's say the best your package will run is 12.4 and your average is 13.4 putting up a (1.00 error) Better to run a fast lap of 12.7 and a (.6 error)

Slow the car down to turn faster lap times. This doesn't work for everybody, or for every track, but it's something to piddle with.
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Old 01-10-2008, 02:09 PM   #36
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Here's the angle as it pertains to your lap times, and people forget this.

There is some assuming here, but it's a thought. remember to think of this as you would golf. It's all about "course management".

The numbers aren't quite as important as the thought surrounding it. Let's say the best your package will run is 12.4 and your average is 13.4 putting up a (1.00 error) Better to run a fast lap of 12.7 and a (.6 error)

Slow the car down to turn faster lap times. This doesn't work for everybody, or for every track, but it's something to piddle with.
I love the concept. Someone had posted that some lap counting software has a similar rating. Not sure which one though. This is the way driving should be taught/learned as far as how to measure good driving.
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Old 01-10-2008, 02:41 PM   #37
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Didn't see this when you first posted. But I think a .3 is too high at least is 6 cell. Now in 4-cell and 8 minute heats it may be right, but I am still working on that class, but in tc if I can turn a 7.9 in the first couple of laps I can turn at least an 8.0 in the last lap. Also your formula was for the average of your best 20 laps, that allows me to knock off 17-18 laps. Maybe it should be configured for the overall lap average instead of the top 20 lap average. This way at 37 laps I would have a consistency of .346 and at 38 would be .126 this is based on a 305 second finish. And you see, if I took only the top 20 laps of that 38 lap finish I would probably be under .100. But this is all subjective, it can't really be used to compare my times to a guys at a different track, we generally only have 5-6 cars in a heat, the guy at the other track may have more which will cause a different consistency, but it is extremely helpful when comparing yourself to yourself or to another person at your track. Which you have said already, but I am just saying you are right.
I'd love to see some paper on some of your runs. It's fun to try and analyze that kind of stuff. When we're talking about 1/10ths of a second, you can't go off of memory, that stuff has got to be dead on to the thousandth.

Also, the more laps you include, the higher the error number will be, but the number is relative to all that are tested the same way.

If you're accurate enough to consistently knock down low numbers, the law of averages dictates that you will be equally as consistent a driver, as the car slows.

When I'm testing, I run a car until it's last lap is exactly 1 second slower than it's best lap. At that point, the package is really done performing. There likely aren't more than 2 laps left at creep speeds. But if you go to the very end of the run, say 10+ minutes, it will skew otherwise useful information because I'm intentionally still driving the car at a known 1 second error rate.

There is another advantage to doing just the top 20 laps. It weeds out a few of the brain fades that would skew the actual potential of the package.

Also, I tend to believe if the car/package gets faster at the end of the run, or is even capable of running similar lap times, a piece of the puzzle is not as accurate as it could be. I feel it could be an indication of a car that started pushy and came in late, or started loose and came in. either one will show a result like that. Also, it's a good indicator to check rollout. Sounds like you might be able to grab a tooth.

Need to see some paper though, it's all speculation.
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Old 01-10-2008, 03:18 PM   #38
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http://81.96.184.16/adur/winterserie...html/h3r1.html

I set the quickest lap with a well used p2k2pro, I just had no consistancy. And I did that right at the end which has me thinking about the car that came in late senario....

I even blew two laps bigtime Its just how things go though.
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Old 01-10-2008, 03:18 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob-Stormer View Post
There is another advantage to doing just the top 20 laps. It weeds out a few of the brain fades that would skew the actual potential of the package.
That is what we around here refer to as the "Chad Theory." It states that "I could have gone *this* fast if I didn't have that 6 second crash..." The Chad get very upset when other people use it

I think using only a portion of your laps to weed out the crashes doesn't quite give a true measure of a driver's consistency. For example, last week when I raced, my second lap put me about lap down and another put me the second lap down. Now applying your theory my consistency would have been .320, however overall it was .680 just by adding two more laps.

Normally I would take the .320 and be happy, but it seems like there is ALWAYS "one" lap in my main that puts me a lap down.
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Old 01-10-2008, 03:18 PM   #40
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Also, I tend to believe if the car/package gets faster at the end of the run, or is even capable of running similar lap times, a piece of the puzzle is not as accurate as it could be. I feel it could be an indication of a car that started pushy and came in late, or started loose and came in. either one will show a result like that. Also, it's a good indicator to check rollout. Sounds like you might be able to grab a tooth.

Need to see some paper though, it's all speculation.
It can also be an indicator that the driver didn't settle down until near the end of the run.
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Old 01-10-2008, 03:24 PM   #41
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Bob-Stormer,
Nice thread. Great theory. I loved reading it. Then i became depressed. But i jst gotta drive faster and more consistantly!!




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Old 01-10-2008, 03:33 PM   #42
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It can also be an indicator that the driver didn't settle down until near the end of the run.
True. In which case, that's also a piece of that drivers puzzle that needs to be addressed. But I can't help but wonder if a driver has that kind of pre-disposition, if it isn't something kind of consistent. If he does it every time, and it can be counted on, then you can still get good results. As long as whatever it is you do, you do it the same. Even if it's being nervous and driving erratically during the first half and calming for the second half.

If you can find it and quantify it you can attempt to change it, or at least work on it. I think a lot of driver "nerves" comes from a lack of confidence in the setup. When you've taken more time, and really understand what is going on, you're not "as" worried about what could be wrong with the car, you already know what is wrong with the car.

I have a oddball theory on improving your driving skills in traffic. Simply put, get yourself a body, send it to one of the pro-level painters, tell them you want a $100 paint job on it. Use in club races.

Your ability to make decisions, based on saving the car, and when to pass and when to let somebody go, are HUGELY amplified. Your decision making process will be working in your favor.

Sounds silly, until you do it. When I've got a hack body on the car, I take silly chances in brutal parts of a track, sometimes it breaks the car. When I have a sweet body on the car, I drive like you should drive. I think more. It's a smarter, more calculated race.
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Old 01-10-2008, 03:49 PM   #43
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That will probably work with most drivers...but as a former painter myself (not pro level mind you...but good enough to make a few bucks) I find the difference in my driving between when I have a hack paint job on and one that I slaved at for days to not be all that different...a little bit yes but not a significant amount.

What made the most difference in my driving early on was when a group of use used to get together in a parking lot somewhere and just drive. Eventually that led to the fast guys saying...hey let's try something, and taught us all something. Basically we started playing follow the leader. At first no one was allowed to pass but we were to follow the lead car closely without bumping the lead car or crashing. If we did either it was back to the end of the line and was the next guy's turn. The leader would also vary the pace often so we could get used to following and being patient at any speed. After we all started getting pretty good at that we were allowed to attempt a pass on the lead car. If we passed cleanly we became the lead car..if we bumped, back to the end of the line again. I wish we could get back to doing that again but finding the time these days is difficult...not to mention the cost in foam tires! But to this day I will often during practice sessions on race day pick a car to follow and just see how long I can follow him without causing an accident.
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Old 01-10-2008, 03:59 PM   #44
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This is all very interesting, and maybe I do need to throw more gear at my car. I will try it tomorrow night, and I will save the printouts for you Bob. But yes, I do setup my car so that it really comes in after about 10 laps. At first my car will be slightly loose then after about 10 laps it gets really good, possibly cause the car is going slightly slower, but regardless at this point in time I am not loosing any corner speed because I am scrubbing too much because of over traction. So end result is car=fast and loose at the beginning, turn my fastest laps, then slows down but does not scrub speed, turn my fastest laps.
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Old 01-10-2008, 04:06 PM   #45
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Yea, post some laps, it's fun to analyze it.

Be cool if you could set the car up tight and then "come in". For a lot of people it helps them get over the jitters before the car gets more aggressive.
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