1LikesU.S. Vintage Trans-Am Racing
06-13-2008, 04:46 PM
#1261
This is the way it is.
These are the USVTA rules and this is how the class has been developed. There are a dozen other classes to run NiMh 6-cell packs in, and two other motor options that allow NiMh cells in Trans Am. 6-cell packs have never been an option and never will be.
We cannot make everyone happy. If you don't like it, you don't have to run Trans Am.
These are the USVTA rules and this is how the class has been developed. There are a dozen other classes to run NiMh 6-cell packs in, and two other motor options that allow NiMh cells in Trans Am. 6-cell packs have never been an option and never will be.
We cannot make everyone happy. If you don't like it, you don't have to run Trans Am.
06-13-2008, 05:24 PM
#1262
ApexSpeed: Seems that with all the testing etc you went through to determine optimal battery and motor combinations, you must have done this with a 6 cell NIMH and decided why its a no go with 21.5 lipo. Thats what I wanted to know. If you tested 6 cell NIMH, and how you reached your conclusion. Not sure why that is a problem in asking you this...
06-13-2008, 05:39 PM
#1263
Have you been at a race and been looking at the "team" sponsored cars and their batteries? and thought to yourself, "hmmm those 3800's look different than the ones I have" ?? been there, done that, and found out later, they were actually 4200's. how hard is that? you tell me
06-13-2008, 05:39 PM
#1264
Cain, just follow your local club rules for TA and when it's time for a TA sanctioned event follow those rules.
Why stir the pot?
What do you run now?
Why stir the pot?
What do you run now?
06-13-2008, 05:58 PM
#1265
losi nut: so you have factory drivers that were running 4200s that were labeled as 3800s? Hopefully guys don't cheat and do that by running illegal lipos in legal Lipo cases.
chicagokenji: Not sure how its stiring the pot to ask the main guy why he came up with his decision. I liked how here it was stated how things came to being and how the testing was done to determine what to run. I just wanted to know what was the testing that caused the decision. thats all.
As for what we run now, nothing USVTA. there has been discussion with guys wanting to run this for the winter, I think it would be great and would like to run it.
chicagokenji: Not sure how its stiring the pot to ask the main guy why he came up with his decision. I liked how here it was stated how things came to being and how the testing was done to determine what to run. I just wanted to know what was the testing that caused the decision. thats all.
As for what we run now, nothing USVTA. there has been discussion with guys wanting to run this for the winter, I think it would be great and would like to run it.
06-13-2008, 06:03 PM
#1266
basically the only reason lipo is allowed is because there is a 21.5 motor. If you want to run nimh run a 17.5 or 27t seems pretty simple...i would think you would be at a disadvantage running 6cell as the FDR is setup for Lipo which has the better discharge curve
06-13-2008, 06:16 PM
#1267
I agree thatI think it would be a disadvantage as well, which is why I was wondering what was the reasoning behind not allowing them with a 21.5 brushless motor, like the 7.4V lipos.
nevermind though. I can see this already is going to get heated for no reason other than a question, so I'll drop it.
nevermind though. I can see this already is going to get heated for no reason other than a question, so I'll drop it.
06-13-2008, 06:45 PM
#1268
Lipos needed to be added to the class, since so many guys run them now. Unfortunately, you're stuck with 7.4v, so you need a motor to get you close in speed to the other power combinations. The 21.5 is really only there for that reason.
Nimh are probably still faster than lipos at this point, especially in the stock motor type classes. *Very* few people ran lipo at the ROAR nationals in March in stock, and nobody in the A mains for sure. Nimh also are heavier, which is fine, but right now it's pretty darn hard to make an overweight TA car.
It would be way harder to get to 1450g for most people w/6 cell Nimh. Not to mention, the cars break less and are easier on tires being lighter.
So, you can see the object was to get lipos in, not 21.5 motors
. 4 cell nimh packs are still a viable option, for sure (that's what I run
)
Nimh are probably still faster than lipos at this point, especially in the stock motor type classes. *Very* few people ran lipo at the ROAR nationals in March in stock, and nobody in the A mains for sure. Nimh also are heavier, which is fine, but right now it's pretty darn hard to make an overweight TA car.
It would be way harder to get to 1450g for most people w/6 cell Nimh. Not to mention, the cars break less and are easier on tires being lighter.So, you can see the object was to get lipos in, not 21.5 motors
. 4 cell nimh packs are still a viable option, for sure (that's what I run)
06-13-2008, 06:57 PM
#1269
Simply put, it was never tested because it was never an option for this class. We never wanted to make this about who has the best packs with the best IR and voltage, or the battery of the month club.
One of the nice things about these cars is that at their lighter weights, they not only are a little more nimble with the 2 fewer batteries, but they also break FAR less parts—and that for everyone is a good thing. This is something that is often lost in the excitement for this class in the competitiveness and authenticity of appearance.
In cars like this with higher CGs, we also did not want one car with a MUCH greater mass to be able to be a complete bully around the track. It's difficult enough as it is to keep them all from turtling in a race session.
The new rule was done for ONE REASON—and that was to introduce an increasingly popular, low maintenance, low investment battery option to the class while keeping it on pace with the existing 4-cell + motor formulas. Because of the fixed voltage of the lighter LiPos, a slower SPEC brushless motor option was implemented. And in the same breath, I can always be assured that no one will ever have more than 8.4 volts no matter what they do (legally). In one fell swoop, we have literally a turnkey power combination that ANYONE off the street can acquire with a minimal one-time investment, and concentrate only on the car and their driving. It's the ultimate throw-back solution to the ultimate throw-back class structure.
There is no perfect solution to make everyone happy, but as someone who has been spearheading this class since the beginning of the year as a true sanctioning body, it's my responsibility to do what is best for the class. In my experience and opinion—right or wrong—6-cell packs are not the right thing for this class.
And for limiting this class to 5000mAh packs... why would you need/want more? Our tests have shown Trans Am cars using off-the-shelf Orion 3600 Carbon packs and the 21.5 Novak motor running in the 18-minute range—with lap times the same in the 18th minute as they were in the first. What more could you possibly need?
Hope this clears some things up. I didn't want this to come off as antagonistic, I just want to make it clear that the rules for this class have been very clearly thought out and for many reasons.
doug
One of the nice things about these cars is that at their lighter weights, they not only are a little more nimble with the 2 fewer batteries, but they also break FAR less parts—and that for everyone is a good thing. This is something that is often lost in the excitement for this class in the competitiveness and authenticity of appearance.
In cars like this with higher CGs, we also did not want one car with a MUCH greater mass to be able to be a complete bully around the track. It's difficult enough as it is to keep them all from turtling in a race session.
The new rule was done for ONE REASON—and that was to introduce an increasingly popular, low maintenance, low investment battery option to the class while keeping it on pace with the existing 4-cell + motor formulas. Because of the fixed voltage of the lighter LiPos, a slower SPEC brushless motor option was implemented. And in the same breath, I can always be assured that no one will ever have more than 8.4 volts no matter what they do (legally). In one fell swoop, we have literally a turnkey power combination that ANYONE off the street can acquire with a minimal one-time investment, and concentrate only on the car and their driving. It's the ultimate throw-back solution to the ultimate throw-back class structure.
There is no perfect solution to make everyone happy, but as someone who has been spearheading this class since the beginning of the year as a true sanctioning body, it's my responsibility to do what is best for the class. In my experience and opinion—right or wrong—6-cell packs are not the right thing for this class.
And for limiting this class to 5000mAh packs... why would you need/want more? Our tests have shown Trans Am cars using off-the-shelf Orion 3600 Carbon packs and the 21.5 Novak motor running in the 18-minute range—with lap times the same in the 18th minute as they were in the first. What more could you possibly need?
Hope this clears some things up. I didn't want this to come off as antagonistic, I just want to make it clear that the rules for this class have been very clearly thought out and for many reasons.
doug
06-14-2008, 01:58 AM
#1270
I know this may upset some people as everyone has been asking for different motor and battery variations for this class but what the hell.
To make this a truly spec class it would be nice to actually take a step back from everyones argument and only allow 21.5 brushless and lipo batteries with an upper capacity limit like you've done already. This would truly eliminated the variation that can occur with different NiMH batteries and brushed motors. Which I've seen at our club races where someone that knows how to tune a CO27 and can buy new batteries every 3-6 months are much faster. On top of that the cost over time would be less seeing that a brushless motor will last almost forever, Lipos a good 2-3 years depending on usage, and you only need 1. Lastly, now that ROAR has put specifications together for brushless there more equally matched between manufactures compared to brushed motors as there are no adjustments.
Just my two cents.
I find this class to be one of the more fun classes to run because it really comes down to car setup and driving skill, which for all those that keep complaining about battery and motor stuff, is what this class was created for!!!!!!!!!
Over and out.
To make this a truly spec class it would be nice to actually take a step back from everyones argument and only allow 21.5 brushless and lipo batteries with an upper capacity limit like you've done already. This would truly eliminated the variation that can occur with different NiMH batteries and brushed motors. Which I've seen at our club races where someone that knows how to tune a CO27 and can buy new batteries every 3-6 months are much faster. On top of that the cost over time would be less seeing that a brushless motor will last almost forever, Lipos a good 2-3 years depending on usage, and you only need 1. Lastly, now that ROAR has put specifications together for brushless there more equally matched between manufactures compared to brushed motors as there are no adjustments.
Just my two cents.
I find this class to be one of the more fun classes to run because it really comes down to car setup and driving skill, which for all those that keep complaining about battery and motor stuff, is what this class was created for!!!!!!!!!
Over and out.
06-14-2008, 04:01 AM
#1271
It's a natural law that there's always going to be some people making a stink over the rules. It's also law that some people will get super pissed at those people and blow it up.
The rules made were obviously made with the greater good in mind for the class. Let's race....
The rules made were obviously made with the greater good in mind for the class. Let's race....
06-14-2008, 04:40 AM
#1272
It's a natural law that there's always going to be some people making a stink over the rules. It's also law that some people will get super pissed at those people and blow it up.
The rules made were obviously made with the greater good in mind for the class. Let's race....
The rules made were obviously made with the greater good in mind for the class. Let's race....
06-14-2008, 04:48 AM
#1273
I know this may upset some people as everyone has been asking for different motor and battery variations for this class but what the hell.
To make this a truly spec class it would be nice to actually take a step back from everyones argument and only allow 21.5 brushless and lipo batteries with an upper capacity limit like you've done already. This would truly eliminated the variation that can occur with different NiMH batteries and brushed motors. Which I've seen at our club races where someone that knows how to tune a CO27 and can buy new batteries every 3-6 months are much faster. On top of that the cost over time would be less seeing that a brushless motor will last almost forever, Lipos a good 2-3 years depending on usage, and you only need 1. Lastly, now that ROAR has put specifications together for brushless there more equally matched between manufactures compared to brushed motors as there are no adjustments.
Just my two cents.
I find this class to be one of the more fun classes to run because it really comes down to car setup and driving skill, which for all those that keep complaining about battery and motor stuff, is what this class was created for!!!!!!!!!
Over and out.
To make this a truly spec class it would be nice to actually take a step back from everyones argument and only allow 21.5 brushless and lipo batteries with an upper capacity limit like you've done already. This would truly eliminated the variation that can occur with different NiMH batteries and brushed motors. Which I've seen at our club races where someone that knows how to tune a CO27 and can buy new batteries every 3-6 months are much faster. On top of that the cost over time would be less seeing that a brushless motor will last almost forever, Lipos a good 2-3 years depending on usage, and you only need 1. Lastly, now that ROAR has put specifications together for brushless there more equally matched between manufactures compared to brushed motors as there are no adjustments.
Just my two cents.
I find this class to be one of the more fun classes to run because it really comes down to car setup and driving skill, which for all those that keep complaining about battery and motor stuff, is what this class was created for!!!!!!!!!
Over and out.
DOug - I love what you'd doing with the rules...You got enough options to make everyone (well just about everyone) happy and bring out drivers who have "retired" or got "old" stuff sitting around
Can't wait to see 2nd Annual USVTA Nationals
06-14-2008, 05:33 AM
#1275
definatly. Ive been against buying an on road for mainly the lack of a close track. But after seeing this class I went and bought 1 and am setting it up to drive about 1 hour each way just to race it lol. Love the concept of the class. And I like the rules because its mainly driver and set up....now how much money you have.