barrys

It maybe says something about human nature that many are more concerned about the smell (i.e., only worrying about what you know about, not what you don't) than the potentially more dangerous chemicals with no smell.

I would welcome Scotty et al requesting Corally to publish the chemicals in Jack the Gripper.

StoneMan

I think I'll put in my 2 cents (cdn)
I've known Martin since the first day my son and I came to watch a r/c race. There is nobody more passionate about this hobby than Martin.
It's not about the SMELL it's about the CHEMICALS and our SAFETY. After all Carbon Monoxide has no smell but it will kill you.
Yes it was Martins first hand (no pun) experience that has raised his awareness of this issue.
History shows that no company is going to spend money on research to come up with a product to replace the one they already are making money with until 1) the product is banned and they're not making any money or 2) the lawsuits cost more than the development costs.
If one of these companies had a traction product that was safe to your health after all the years its been discussed don't you think that they would put a very large label on the can? Every track in the land would order its use.
It's up to us as a group to bring about this change.

barrys

Has anyone ever tried sugar (or more realistically in the US, corn syrup) water sprayed on carpet?

If it worked, that would obviously both have health benefits while also enabling club races (and practice) to have equivalent traction as big events

Martin Crisp

Exactly!

Martin Crisp

Glad to hear that you are open to the idea of some change here.

Am I allergic to a chem in the compounds? To be honest I don't really know? I can say that over the past two years I have developed a condition called Non-allergenic Rhinitis, which is similar but not he same as allergies. So technically I don't have allergies to anything...but...The net result is that I have a sensitivity to over 70 foods now and couple environment things like mold etc. Pretty much the only food I am not sensitive to is chicken, fish and some vegetables....that is just no fun. I should not have sugar, caffeine, chocolate, wheat, pasta, most fruits..etc. Now the question is, did these traction compounds and the like cause this condition?...or am I sensitive to these traction compounds because of this condition? My doctors feel it is possible that these compounds caused this condition, but they have no real way to confirm that. I think given he MSDS info on these chemicals it certainly is possible that they had something to do with this condition. After all the MSDS sheets do talk about skin irritation resulting from continued small dose exposure or large single dose exposure....my skin certainly fits that description.

Martin Crisp

I think this is a great idea.....I am hoping this forum will generate enough demand for some change that these types of things can happen.

Johnboy Walton

iTrader: (3)

In the interest of furthering the open discussion, the point has been made repeatedly that it is extremely likely that the reactions people are having to Paragon and other traction additives have nothing to do with the chemicals that smell (the wintergreen oil), and everything to do with the chemicals that don't (the hydrocarbons).

Someone just mentioned carbon monoxide. I remember I was working in a garage with a kerosene heater and we all started to feel light-headed and happy. We turned off the heater and opened a door and in 5 minutes we felt normal again. We never smelled anything, we just knew we weren't feeling right. I would bet that this is a similar case with Paragon, etc.

Where I'm in 100% agreement with the spirit of Martin's agrument (regrettably I've never had the pleasure of meeting the gentleman) is the obtaining of knowledge - I want to make sure that we burn the right witch.

I'm very much for obtaining detailed ingredients listings and comparing against known effects IN HUMANS. Once we have that, and not before, we can go about proposing bans or limits on the suspect substances or products.


Martin - I'm sorry to hear that the use of this product impacts your enjoyment of the hobby so much. It's obviously somewhat difficult for me to simpathize, as I am among the (apparently few) who enjoy the smell of Paragon. As a non-smoker who loves the local music scene, I was happy to hear they had banned smoking in all of the local bars. So I can very much understand why you'd like a similar repreive from Paragon. Frankly, I don't care what we use, but just varying the amount of compound on front tires is such a dramatic tuning option that I'd be very sad to see it go. Hopefully an amicable solution can be reached.

Preferrably without making all the Paragon-sensitive racers pit in the parking lot!!

Martin Crisp

I think you have an excellent point about the local tracks, but from my experience most drivers that I know don't want to win if it requires cheating. Also at the local track level not every driver is putting 100% effort on the track every race like a big race....they may not refresh the motor, they may run those slightly chuncked foam tires,...they may not by a new set of rubber tires every 3 runs....the point being that at the local weekly racing level it is often done on an un-even playing field anyway. Since I get support from my sponsors for batteries, tires and motors, do you think that is not a big advantage over the non sponsored guys at my local track if I really wanted to put 100% down on the track every race?

have I contacted the manf? ...or am I just venting...expecting others to do the work? That's a fair question. Actually I did send an email to Corally on Wednesday this week and talked to Tracktac on the phone this week about their products to see what can be done. I am waiting for a reply, but you know how email can go. I am going to get a sample of the Tracktac products which don't exceed level 1 on a toxic rating scale of 0 to 4 with 0 being the lowest. I also talked to Tracktac about a water based product that the owner makes for a friend who races rc, but does not currently sell as a product. If you have contact info for paragon I will certainly contact them. I still need to reach out to team orion.

Here is my email I sent to Corally...

Hi,

My name is Martin Crisp and I would like to discuss with you how we can make our hobby safer for all drivers. The traction compounds on the market today are a health risk given the frequency with which we use them causing a lot of exposure to the chemicals within them. I personally would like to see all traction compounds banned from racing, but this is a difficult, but not impossible thing to accomplish. Another approach which would not take away your traction compound revenue stream is to use less harmful chemicals and indicate on the packaging what chemicals are used in your product so that consumers can make an informed decision. Would it not be a great thing to be seen in the industry as a company that takes the first step towards the health of world wide racers? Imagine that all major races would select your product because it is the right thing to do for the racing community.

The reason why I am passionate about this change is that I already suffer greatly from the chemicals used in your and other traction compound products. The skin on my hands is not no stronger than tissue paper, are always itchy and constantly sore. I have also developed Non Allergenic Rhinitis which is a lot like allergies in that the body is very sensitive to some things, causing my breathing to wheeze, my sinus to become very congested. The wheezing gets so bad that at times it is very challenging to breath and prevents me from getting sleep. As a result of this I am now allergic to over 70 different foods. To be honest it is always possible that my Rhinitis was cause by something else, but the skin problem is absolutely caused by these compounds. I have also had nose bleeds and coughed up blood on one occasion, during the Cleveland race this year while being exposed for a week to paragon. I have to say that your product does not bother me as much as paragon, but it still causes significant problems.

Although I am sure you sympathize with my situation, I am not looking for sympathy, nor is this letter about me. This letter is about the health impact your products have on a large population of people and about how Corally could generate good will and loyalty in the market by taking this step.

I look forward to discussing this with you further.

Thank you,
Martin Crisp
Toronto Canada

.....


So I am not expecting others to do the work. I am sure I don't have any pull with any of these manufactures, but as a community we do.

Martin Crisp

Tony....Great summary and perspective.

I think the internet can tend to bring out negative vibes because a lot of people that make these comments can hide behind a fake name. I may be wrong, but if you have something to say at least be strong enough to put your name behind it....like you did.

Thanks.

Martin Crisp

Hey Ed, Thanks for posting this....I am going to forward this to ROAR and ask for some discussion on the topic.

Martin Crisp

Hey Boomer,

I am glad to hear that you are open to change on this. Just so you know I did get sick at IIC last year. Not anywhere close to cleveland because of two things in my opinion. 1) the use of jack the gripper instead of paragon as paragon affects me more and more importantly 2) we did not pit in our rooms, so I could get away from the vapours.

RC Scoring Pro

Martin Crisp

Andy...exactly!

Martin Crisp

This would be an interesting experiment. Someone mentioned this earlier and one valid concern is that the sugar would attract ants...but even if the track was sprayed with a "safer" traction compound instead of the drivers putting it on their tires maybe that would help. In an earlier post I mentioned that at a race last weekend I ran a qualifier without putting traction compound on my tires, and frankly the grip was great, because the carpet was already saturated with jack the gripper.

nagatahawk

Martin,
thanks for caring about our sport. the post here have been very compelling although long. I had to skip most because if limited time.

I currently use Paragon although I have limited it to only out doors racing. I no longer race indoor at SoCal because it really effects my eyes. They turn blood shot and feel terrible, not to mention my lungs. Until I read this post I never really gave it much thought. but now I will attempt to find some traction compound that is non toxic.

I urge indoor facilities such as SoCal to ban Paragon and similar compounds. They probably would attract more people to the sport and rather than lose people who are physically intolerant to Paragon. I can't imagine bringing guest to Socal on a Saturday Night. So for now, like the guy said if you don't like it quit. I quit socal. ha ha! they lose my attendance and any potential cash spent there.

Any businessman, such as SoCal, would not tell people to quit, and any true sportsman, would never tell people to quit the sport of rc.

by the way, have you ever used Coppertone 15 for traction compound?

later
wayne