R/C Tech Forums

Go Back   R/C Tech Forums > General Forums > Electric On-Road

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 04-07-2006, 06:57 AM   #106
Tech Addict
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 547
Default smell isn't the issue - which chemicals should be

It maybe says something about human nature that many are more concerned about the smell (i.e., only worrying about what you know about, not what you don't) than the potentially more dangerous chemicals with no smell.

I would welcome Scotty et al requesting Corally to publish the chemicals in Jack the Gripper.
barrys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2006, 07:29 AM   #107
Tech Adept
 
StoneMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Maple, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 133
Default

I think I'll put in my 2 cents (cdn)
I've known Martin since the first day my son and I came to watch a r/c race. There is nobody more passionate about this hobby than Martin.
It's not about the SMELL it's about the CHEMICALS and our SAFETY. After all Carbon Monoxide has no smell but it will kill you.
Yes it was Martins first hand (no pun) experience that has raised his awareness of this issue.
History shows that no company is going to spend money on research to come up with a product to replace the one they already are making money with until 1) the product is banned and they're not making any money or 2) the lawsuits cost more than the development costs.
If one of these companies had a traction product that was safe to your health after all the years its been discussed don't you think that they would put a very large label on the can? Every track in the land would order its use.
It's up to us as a group to bring about this change.
StoneMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2006, 07:33 AM   #108
Tech Addict
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 547
Default sugar (or corn syrup) water on carpet?

Has anyone ever tried sugar (or more realistically in the US, corn syrup) water sprayed on carpet?

If it worked, that would obviously both have health benefits while also enabling club races (and practice) to have equivalent traction as big events
barrys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2006, 08:00 AM   #109
Tech Fanatic
 
Martin Crisp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 827
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimPotter
but what I am saying, is the items contained in Paragon ( and other traction, glues,paints,etc), may down the road.... show that we have hurt ourselves when we could have avoided it................ and still participated in the hobby we love so much...
Exactly!
__________________
Martin Crisp
Power-Story.com | LearnSetup.com
Martin Crisp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2006, 08:18 AM   #110
Tech Fanatic
 
Martin Crisp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 827
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by chensleyrc1
I Martin I was wondering if you might be allergic to a substance in the compound? ...
And on the issue of banning them, I personally don't care, as long as everyone else don't use any.
Glad to hear that you are open to the idea of some change here.

Am I allergic to a chem in the compounds? To be honest I don't really know? I can say that over the past two years I have developed a condition called Non-allergenic Rhinitis, which is similar but not he same as allergies. So technically I don't have allergies to anything...but...The net result is that I have a sensitivity to over 70 foods now and couple environment things like mold etc. Pretty much the only food I am not sensitive to is chicken, fish and some vegetables....that is just no fun. I should not have sugar, caffeine, chocolate, wheat, pasta, most fruits..etc. Now the question is, did these traction compounds and the like cause this condition?...or am I sensitive to these traction compounds because of this condition? My doctors feel it is possible that these compounds caused this condition, but they have no real way to confirm that. I think given he MSDS info on these chemicals it certainly is possible that they had something to do with this condition. After all the MSDS sheets do talk about skin irritation resulting from continued small dose exposure or large single dose exposure....my skin certainly fits that description.
__________________
Martin Crisp
Power-Story.com | LearnSetup.com
Martin Crisp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2006, 08:21 AM   #111
Tech Fanatic
 
Martin Crisp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 827
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by beerbarron
I am wondering what would happen if someone like ROAR or IFMAR put it to a vote for the members to decide to dis-allow traction compounds at indoor events. It would also be interesting to see an online poll of this issue.
I think this is a great idea.....I am hoping this forum will generate enough demand for some change that these types of things can happen.
__________________
Martin Crisp
Power-Story.com | LearnSetup.com
Martin Crisp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2006, 08:32 AM   #112
Tech Apprentice
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Portland, ME
Posts: 75
Trader Rating: 3 (100%+)
Default

In the interest of furthering the open discussion, the point has been made repeatedly that it is extremely likely that the reactions people are having to Paragon and other traction additives have nothing to do with the chemicals that smell (the wintergreen oil), and everything to do with the chemicals that don't (the hydrocarbons).

Someone just mentioned carbon monoxide. I remember I was working in a garage with a kerosene heater and we all started to feel light-headed and happy. We turned off the heater and opened a door and in 5 minutes we felt normal again. We never smelled anything, we just knew we weren't feeling right. I would bet that this is a similar case with Paragon, etc.

Where I'm in 100% agreement with the spirit of Martin's agrument (regrettably I've never had the pleasure of meeting the gentleman) is the obtaining of knowledge - I want to make sure that we burn the right witch.

I'm very much for obtaining detailed ingredients listings and comparing against known effects IN HUMANS. Once we have that, and not before, we can go about proposing bans or limits on the suspect substances or products.


Martin - I'm sorry to hear that the use of this product impacts your enjoyment of the hobby so much. It's obviously somewhat difficult for me to simpathize, as I am among the (apparently few) who enjoy the smell of Paragon. As a non-smoker who loves the local music scene, I was happy to hear they had banned smoking in all of the local bars. So I can very much understand why you'd like a similar repreive from Paragon. Frankly, I don't care what we use, but just varying the amount of compound on front tires is such a dramatic tuning option that I'd be very sad to see it go. Hopefully an amicable solution can be reached.

Preferrably without making all the Paragon-sensitive racers pit in the parking lot!!
Johnboy Walton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2006, 08:37 AM   #113
Tech Fanatic
 
Martin Crisp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 827
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nashrcracer
well to ban it your not going to stop the local tracks that don't care about what compound you use, and if you want to win you WILL use something at these tracks. ...

so Martin have you contacted all the compound manufactors and try to get one to site down and make something that wasn't toxic. or are you just venting. you want someone to do everything for you. you should sit down with something like molasses and a delivery agent like water and see if you can get it to work. and then sell it to the local track and then see if you can get TQ or corally or paragon or someone else to take it and sell it and then get major races to use it. you have the pull to do that as known as you are.
I think you have an excellent point about the local tracks, but from my experience most drivers that I know don't want to win if it requires cheating. Also at the local track level not every driver is putting 100% effort on the track every race like a big race....they may not refresh the motor, they may run those slightly chuncked foam tires,...they may not by a new set of rubber tires every 3 runs....the point being that at the local weekly racing level it is often done on an un-even playing field anyway. Since I get support from my sponsors for batteries, tires and motors, do you think that is not a big advantage over the non sponsored guys at my local track if I really wanted to put 100% down on the track every race?

have I contacted the manf? ...or am I just venting...expecting others to do the work? That's a fair question. Actually I did send an email to Corally on Wednesday this week and talked to Tracktac on the phone this week about their products to see what can be done. I am waiting for a reply, but you know how email can go. I am going to get a sample of the Tracktac products which don't exceed level 1 on a toxic rating scale of 0 to 4 with 0 being the lowest. I also talked to Tracktac about a water based product that the owner makes for a friend who races rc, but does not currently sell as a product. If you have contact info for paragon I will certainly contact them. I still need to reach out to team orion.

Here is my email I sent to Corally...

Hi,

My name is Martin Crisp and I would like to discuss with you how we can make our hobby safer for all drivers. The traction compounds on the market today are a health risk given the frequency with which we use them causing a lot of exposure to the chemicals within them. I personally would like to see all traction compounds banned from racing, but this is a difficult, but not impossible thing to accomplish. Another approach which would not take away your traction compound revenue stream is to use less harmful chemicals and indicate on the packaging what chemicals are used in your product so that consumers can make an informed decision. Would it not be a great thing to be seen in the industry as a company that takes the first step towards the health of world wide racers? Imagine that all major races would select your product because it is the right thing to do for the racing community.

The reason why I am passionate about this change is that I already suffer greatly from the chemicals used in your and other traction compound products. The skin on my hands is not no stronger than tissue paper, are always itchy and constantly sore. I have also developed Non Allergenic Rhinitis which is a lot like allergies in that the body is very sensitive to some things, causing my breathing to wheeze, my sinus to become very congested. The wheezing gets so bad that at times it is very challenging to breath and prevents me from getting sleep. As a result of this I am now allergic to over 70 different foods. To be honest it is always possible that my Rhinitis was cause by something else, but the skin problem is absolutely caused by these compounds. I have also had nose bleeds and coughed up blood on one occasion, during the Cleveland race this year while being exposed for a week to paragon. I have to say that your product does not bother me as much as paragon, but it still causes significant problems.

Although I am sure you sympathize with my situation, I am not looking for sympathy, nor is this letter about me. This letter is about the health impact your products have on a large population of people and about how Corally could generate good will and loyalty in the market by taking this step.

I look forward to discussing this with you further.

Thank you,
Martin Crisp
Toronto Canada

.....


So I am not expecting others to do the work. I am sure I don't have any pull with any of these manufactures, but as a community we do.
__________________
Martin Crisp
Power-Story.com | LearnSetup.com
Martin Crisp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2006, 08:42 AM   #114
Tech Fanatic
 
Martin Crisp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 827
Default ...

Tony....Great summary and perspective.

I think the internet can tend to bring out negative vibes because a lot of people that make these comments can hide behind a fake name. I may be wrong, but if you have something to say at least be strong enough to put your name behind it....like you did.

Thanks.
__________________
Martin Crisp
Power-Story.com | LearnSetup.com
Martin Crisp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2006, 08:45 AM   #115
Tech Fanatic
 
Martin Crisp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 827
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TryHard
Just thought I'd throw this in. These are direct from the BRCA handbook

Anyway, from the 1:10th Touring section;
3.2 Tyre cleaners or traction compounds that can coat or damage in anyway mark the racing surface are specifically banned. The use of any tyre additive containing any known harmful chemicals is strictly prohibited. The use of tyre cleaners and or traction compounds is at the race organiser's discretion. Notification of known non-allowable tyre additives should appear on the entry forms. The use of any oil of wintergreen-based product (i.e. smells of Deep Heat) is not allowed. Tyre additives are allowed to be used at the competiors own risk ar all National Championship events.

From the 1:10th I/C section
5.9 All types of tyre additive are prohibited fromuse in all classes with the exception of scale rubber only, which can use tyre cleaners. Anybody wilfully found using additives will be disqualified from the days racing

And the 1:12th section
1.6 Tyre treatments are permitted at the organisers discretion and are the users responsibility. Organisers who ban use of specific products should state so on the entry forms.
* Flammable and toxic xubstances are not allowed
* The BRCA has not yet found a substance which it can recomend for the treatment/cleaning of tyres
* The BRCA organisers draw attention to the possible hazard created by large numbers of competitors using tyre treatments in a confined space. The BRCA recommend that the competior adheres to the methods of usage as stated by the supplier of the treatment
* The only tyre treatment allowed at BRCA sanctioned meetings is of the oil extracted variety, a list of legal additives will be produced prior to the start of the season

Ed
Hey Ed, Thanks for posting this....I am going to forward this to ROAR and ask for some discussion on the topic.
__________________
Martin Crisp
Power-Story.com | LearnSetup.com
Martin Crisp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2006, 09:02 AM   #116
Tech Fanatic
 
Martin Crisp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 827
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Daddy Boomer
I love this meaningful discussion and maybe something good can come from this.
We have used Jack at Trackside exclusivley for a while now and It has been the exclusive tire sauce for the Novak race for the last 2 years. As far as I know there has been no problems with nose bleeds etc..

It is nice to come home from the track and not have to hop in the shower to get the smell off that accompany some tire sauces.


Just my 2 cents.

Boomer

Hey Boomer,

I am glad to hear that you are open to change on this. Just so you know I did get sick at IIC last year. Not anywhere close to cleveland because of two things in my opinion. 1) the use of jack the gripper instead of paragon as paragon affects me more and more importantly 2) we did not pit in our rooms, so I could get away from the vapours.
__________________
Martin Crisp
Power-Story.com | LearnSetup.com
Martin Crisp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2006, 09:04 AM   #117
Tech Elite
 
RC Scoring Pro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Elm Grove, WI (Milwaukee area) USA
Posts: 2,010
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nashrcracer
after 20 years of paragon use I don't think I have any ill effects but you never know.
__________________
RCScoringPro.com

Official software of: ROAR Nationals, IIC, Cactus Classic, Indoor Champs, Reedy Race and Trackside Hobbies in Brookfield, WI!
RC Scoring Pro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2006, 09:05 AM   #118
Tech Fanatic
 
Martin Crisp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 827
Default

Andy...exactly!
__________________
Martin Crisp
Power-Story.com | LearnSetup.com
Martin Crisp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2006, 09:08 AM   #119
Tech Fanatic
 
Martin Crisp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 827
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by barrys
Has anyone ever tried sugar (or more realistically in the US, corn syrup) water sprayed on carpet?

If it worked, that would obviously both have health benefits while also enabling club races (and practice) to have equivalent traction as big events

This would be an interesting experiment. Someone mentioned this earlier and one valid concern is that the sugar would attract ants...but even if the track was sprayed with a "safer" traction compound instead of the drivers putting it on their tires maybe that would help. In an earlier post I mentioned that at a race last weekend I ran a qualifier without putting traction compound on my tires, and frankly the grip was great, because the carpet was already saturated with jack the gripper.
__________________
Martin Crisp
Power-Story.com | LearnSetup.com
Martin Crisp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2006, 09:08 AM   #120
Tech Regular
 
nagatahawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 349
Default

Martin,
thanks for caring about our sport. the post here have been very compelling although long. I had to skip most because if limited time.

I currently use Paragon although I have limited it to only out doors racing. I no longer race indoor at SoCal because it really effects my eyes. They turn blood shot and feel terrible, not to mention my lungs. Until I read this post I never really gave it much thought. but now I will attempt to find some traction compound that is non toxic.

I urge indoor facilities such as SoCal to ban Paragon and similar compounds. They probably would attract more people to the sport and rather than lose people who are physically intolerant to Paragon. I can't imagine bringing guest to Socal on a Saturday Night. So for now, like the guy said if you don't like it quit. I quit socal. ha ha! they lose my attendance and any potential cash spent there.

Any businessman, such as SoCal, would not tell people to quit, and any true sportsman, would never tell people to quit the sport of rc.

by the way, have you ever used Coppertone 15 for traction compound?

later
wayne
nagatahawk is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Traction Compounds srs64 Electric On-Road 1 09-13-2007 04:25 PM
Tyre Traction compounds etc Got Xray? Australian Racing 29 08-13-2006 06:24 AM
Traction Compounds Questions DiegoVVRacing Electric On-Road 3 11-23-2004 02:14 AM
what ingredients go into traction compounds ark Electric On-Road 0 05-05-2004 07:49 AM
Traction Compounds for Parking Lots Jared Kirkwood Electric On-Road 16 06-05-2002 09:06 PM



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -7. It is currently 02:37 PM.


Powered By: vBulletin v3.9.2.1
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Advertise Content © 2001-2011 RCTech.net