698LikesHandout motors
04-05-2018, 06:53 AM
#423
Yes, it was a question about some sort of engineering stuff. I asked that because I was lead to believe by your one statement that you didn't have a technical/engineering background. And that is OK, there is no crime in that. But then you came back with a misspelled word about a nominal dimension, complete with sharing some detailed numbers that you would not have known without looking it up. That leads me to believe your in fact a technical/engineering type because you would have had to know where to find that type of information. So that lead to my next comment.
Needless to say I've never been a good speller ....
04-05-2018, 07:01 AM
#424
-D3.5 was clearly faster than anything else out there. True
-It was found that they were using larger than the specified max wire diameter True
-ROAR removed certain winds of the D3.5 from the approved motors list Once ROAR found out that the wire used was larger than the maximum diameter, true
-Trinity sued because something along the lines of: there are tolerances in manufacturing to a specified AWG and the ROAR rules didn't account well enough for this. No. Trinity sued ROAR over the way the situation was handled.
-ROAR reinstated the motors on the approved list for a roughly six month period, BUT... It didn't matter because 90% of the clubs and tracks across the country outlawed the motor even after they were added back to the approved list. No. ROAR never reinstated the motor. However most tracks permitted the motor because of cost.
-Real bottom line???: D3.5 is still not an approved motor and Trinity did nothing for the customers who purchased them and couldn't use them. Not quite, since the only place you couldn't use the motor was ROAR races.
I hate to say this, but the problem was ROAR. The D3.5 was clearly illegal. When you have a maximum diameter, there is no tolerance. You're either at that size or smaller, or you're not. No, the issue came from the way ROAR was testing motors. You see, the folks at ROAR thought everyone was doing this to have fun. For the sake of simplicity, they wrote the rule with a specific AWG size. They thought motor makers would simply order that gage wire, and use it. No one thought somebody would go out and custom order wire to a specific size, maxing out the rule.
In an attempt to save money, ROAR had a volunteer doing the technical work to approve motors. The volunteer was a motor guy, the thought being he knows more about motors than anyone else, and he would be objective in his findings. (This part I'm not sure of) The tool he used to check the diameter of the wire was a micrometer. Usually a very reliable tool. When the D3.5 was checked, the diameter of the wire was right on the line of being legal. He checked it several times to verify his results. When compared to other motors, the wire was definitely larger, but he could not definitively say the wire was too big. So the decision was to pass the motor.
The motor makes it to the general public. It was the oval guys who were the first to know something was wrong. They knew right away the motor was too fast. Some of the more engineering racers started taking motors apart and checking the wire. They found the wire was too large. ROAR really wasn't sure what to do. At this point, someone (I believe Bob Novak) offered the use of a comparator to check the wire size. For those of you who don't know, a comparator is a very expensive machine used for precise measuring. It is way, way, way more accurate than a micrometer. Using the comparator on the original wire submitted, the wire was clearly too big. ROAR had no choice but to withdraw the approval of the motor.
Today, all motors submitted for approval go to an independent lab for testing. This is a very expensive procedure, folks.
Look, I don't want to rehash the entire D3.5 argument. It's in the past, let's leave it there. ROAR has no teeth because it's been beaten into submission after 30 years of abuse. The problem is racers who are continually looking for an advantage, no matter the cost in money or the hobby in general. And there's no rule that will ever stop that.
The answer to the horsepower wars is handout motors. The tracks that have tried it have been successful with it. Really, that's the bottom line.
-It was found that they were using larger than the specified max wire diameter True
-ROAR removed certain winds of the D3.5 from the approved motors list Once ROAR found out that the wire used was larger than the maximum diameter, true
-Trinity sued because something along the lines of: there are tolerances in manufacturing to a specified AWG and the ROAR rules didn't account well enough for this. No. Trinity sued ROAR over the way the situation was handled.
-ROAR reinstated the motors on the approved list for a roughly six month period, BUT... It didn't matter because 90% of the clubs and tracks across the country outlawed the motor even after they were added back to the approved list. No. ROAR never reinstated the motor. However most tracks permitted the motor because of cost.
-Real bottom line???: D3.5 is still not an approved motor and Trinity did nothing for the customers who purchased them and couldn't use them. Not quite, since the only place you couldn't use the motor was ROAR races.
I hate to say this, but the problem was ROAR. The D3.5 was clearly illegal. When you have a maximum diameter, there is no tolerance. You're either at that size or smaller, or you're not. No, the issue came from the way ROAR was testing motors. You see, the folks at ROAR thought everyone was doing this to have fun. For the sake of simplicity, they wrote the rule with a specific AWG size. They thought motor makers would simply order that gage wire, and use it. No one thought somebody would go out and custom order wire to a specific size, maxing out the rule.
In an attempt to save money, ROAR had a volunteer doing the technical work to approve motors. The volunteer was a motor guy, the thought being he knows more about motors than anyone else, and he would be objective in his findings. (This part I'm not sure of) The tool he used to check the diameter of the wire was a micrometer. Usually a very reliable tool. When the D3.5 was checked, the diameter of the wire was right on the line of being legal. He checked it several times to verify his results. When compared to other motors, the wire was definitely larger, but he could not definitively say the wire was too big. So the decision was to pass the motor.
The motor makes it to the general public. It was the oval guys who were the first to know something was wrong. They knew right away the motor was too fast. Some of the more engineering racers started taking motors apart and checking the wire. They found the wire was too large. ROAR really wasn't sure what to do. At this point, someone (I believe Bob Novak) offered the use of a comparator to check the wire size. For those of you who don't know, a comparator is a very expensive machine used for precise measuring. It is way, way, way more accurate than a micrometer. Using the comparator on the original wire submitted, the wire was clearly too big. ROAR had no choice but to withdraw the approval of the motor.
Today, all motors submitted for approval go to an independent lab for testing. This is a very expensive procedure, folks.
Look, I don't want to rehash the entire D3.5 argument. It's in the past, let's leave it there. ROAR has no teeth because it's been beaten into submission after 30 years of abuse. The problem is racers who are continually looking for an advantage, no matter the cost in money or the hobby in general. And there's no rule that will ever stop that.
The answer to the horsepower wars is handout motors. The tracks that have tried it have been successful with it. Really, that's the bottom line.
04-05-2018, 09:26 AM
#425
-D3.5 was clearly faster than anything else out there. True
-It was found that they were using larger than the specified max wire diameter True
-ROAR removed certain winds of the D3.5 from the approved motors list Once ROAR found out that the wire used was larger than the maximum diameter, true
-Trinity sued because something along the lines of: there are tolerances in manufacturing to a specified AWG and the ROAR rules didn't account well enough for this. No. Trinity sued ROAR over the way the situation was handled.
-ROAR reinstated the motors on the approved list for a roughly six month period, BUT... It didn't matter because 90% of the clubs and tracks across the country outlawed the motor even after they were added back to the approved list. No. ROAR never reinstated the motor. However most tracks permitted the motor because of cost.
-Real bottom line???: D3.5 is still not an approved motor and Trinity did nothing for the customers who purchased them and couldn't use them. Not quite, since the only place you couldn't use the motor was ROAR races.
I hate to say this, but the problem was ROAR. The D3.5 was clearly illegal. When you have a maximum diameter, there is no tolerance. You're either at that size or smaller, or you're not. No, the issue came from the way ROAR was testing motors. You see, the folks at ROAR thought everyone was doing this to have fun. For the sake of simplicity, they wrote the rule with a specific AWG size. They thought motor makers would simply order that gage wire, and use it. No one thought somebody would go out and custom order wire to a specific size, maxing out the rule.
In an attempt to save money, ROAR had a volunteer doing the technical work to approve motors. The volunteer was a motor guy, the thought being he knows more about motors than anyone else, and he would be objective in his findings. (This part I'm not sure of) The tool he used to check the diameter of the wire was a micrometer. Usually a very reliable tool. When the D3.5 was checked, the diameter of the wire was right on the line of being legal. He checked it several times to verify his results. When compared to other motors, the wire was definitely larger, but he could not definitively say the wire was too big. So the decision was to pass the motor.
The motor makes it to the general public. It was the oval guys who were the first to know something was wrong. They knew right away the motor was too fast. Some of the more engineering racers started taking motors apart and checking the wire. They found the wire was too large. ROAR really wasn't sure what to do. At this point, someone (I believe Bob Novak) offered the use of a comparator to check the wire size. For those of you who don't know, a comparator is a very expensive machine used for precise measuring. It is way, way, way more accurate than a micrometer. Using the comparator on the original wire submitted, the wire was clearly too big. ROAR had no choice but to withdraw the approval of the motor.
Today, all motors submitted for approval go to an independent lab for testing. This is a very expensive procedure, folks.
Look, I don't want to rehash the entire D3.5 argument. It's in the past, let's leave it there. ROAR has no teeth because it's been beaten into submission after 30 years of abuse. The problem is racers who are continually looking for an advantage, no matter the cost in money or the hobby in general. And there's no rule that will ever stop that.
The answer to the horsepower wars is handout motors. The tracks that have tried it have been successful with it. Really, that's the bottom line.
-It was found that they were using larger than the specified max wire diameter True
-ROAR removed certain winds of the D3.5 from the approved motors list Once ROAR found out that the wire used was larger than the maximum diameter, true
-Trinity sued because something along the lines of: there are tolerances in manufacturing to a specified AWG and the ROAR rules didn't account well enough for this. No. Trinity sued ROAR over the way the situation was handled.
-ROAR reinstated the motors on the approved list for a roughly six month period, BUT... It didn't matter because 90% of the clubs and tracks across the country outlawed the motor even after they were added back to the approved list. No. ROAR never reinstated the motor. However most tracks permitted the motor because of cost.
-Real bottom line???: D3.5 is still not an approved motor and Trinity did nothing for the customers who purchased them and couldn't use them. Not quite, since the only place you couldn't use the motor was ROAR races.
I hate to say this, but the problem was ROAR. The D3.5 was clearly illegal. When you have a maximum diameter, there is no tolerance. You're either at that size or smaller, or you're not. No, the issue came from the way ROAR was testing motors. You see, the folks at ROAR thought everyone was doing this to have fun. For the sake of simplicity, they wrote the rule with a specific AWG size. They thought motor makers would simply order that gage wire, and use it. No one thought somebody would go out and custom order wire to a specific size, maxing out the rule.
In an attempt to save money, ROAR had a volunteer doing the technical work to approve motors. The volunteer was a motor guy, the thought being he knows more about motors than anyone else, and he would be objective in his findings. (This part I'm not sure of) The tool he used to check the diameter of the wire was a micrometer. Usually a very reliable tool. When the D3.5 was checked, the diameter of the wire was right on the line of being legal. He checked it several times to verify his results. When compared to other motors, the wire was definitely larger, but he could not definitively say the wire was too big. So the decision was to pass the motor.
The motor makes it to the general public. It was the oval guys who were the first to know something was wrong. They knew right away the motor was too fast. Some of the more engineering racers started taking motors apart and checking the wire. They found the wire was too large. ROAR really wasn't sure what to do. At this point, someone (I believe Bob Novak) offered the use of a comparator to check the wire size. For those of you who don't know, a comparator is a very expensive machine used for precise measuring. It is way, way, way more accurate than a micrometer. Using the comparator on the original wire submitted, the wire was clearly too big. ROAR had no choice but to withdraw the approval of the motor.
Today, all motors submitted for approval go to an independent lab for testing. This is a very expensive procedure, folks.
Look, I don't want to rehash the entire D3.5 argument. It's in the past, let's leave it there. ROAR has no teeth because it's been beaten into submission after 30 years of abuse. The problem is racers who are continually looking for an advantage, no matter the cost in money or the hobby in general. And there's no rule that will ever stop that.
The answer to the horsepower wars is handout motors. The tracks that have tried it have been successful with it. Really, that's the bottom line.
04-05-2018, 09:26 AM
#426
Tech Master
iTrader: (1)
Raising the entry fees $40-$50 per class will be a tough to pill to swallow. People will run less classes
And what about the smaller races that can not afford or chose not to do handouts? Either you will still need a race motor, or you don't go.
So we just killed all of the small to midsize races and cut the entries to the larger races. Is this what we are trying to do?
I'm not saying that everything is OK the way it is, but we need to look at all of the details.
04-05-2018, 09:28 AM
#427
Handouts are not as much of an answer as one may think. Handouts can actually make racing more expensive.
Raising the entry fees $40-$50 per class will be a tough to pill to swallow. People will run less classes
And what about the smaller races that can not afford or chose not to do handouts? Either you will still need a race motor, or you don't go.
So we just killed all of the small to midsize races and cut the entries to the larger races. Is this what we are trying to do?
I'm not saying that everything is OK the way it is, but we need to look at all of the details.
Raising the entry fees $40-$50 per class will be a tough to pill to swallow. People will run less classes
And what about the smaller races that can not afford or chose not to do handouts? Either you will still need a race motor, or you don't go.
So we just killed all of the small to midsize races and cut the entries to the larger races. Is this what we are trying to do?
I'm not saying that everything is OK the way it is, but we need to look at all of the details.
04-05-2018, 09:41 AM
#428
04-05-2018, 09:50 AM
#430
Bottom line is: design the motors legal and use quality control to make sure they stay legal throughout production. And if a motor manufacturer is purposefully bending the rules to produce faster motors to 1 up the competition, then I say "to the Locker with them".
Who is buying a $400 motor?
04-05-2018, 11:04 AM
#432
Tech Master
iTrader: (47)
-ROAR reinstated the motors on the approved list for a roughly six month period, BUT... It didn't matter because 90% of the clubs and tracks across the country outlawed the motor even after they were added back to the approved list. No. ROAR never reinstated the motor. However most tracks permitted the motor because of cost.
From: https://www.rctech.net/forum/chat-lo...y-vs-roar.html
JUNE 24, 2013 – WASHINGTON, DC – Trincorp, LLC, along with three other companies (Fantom Racing, Team EAM Inc, and Putnam Propulsion), have reached a settlement with Remotely Operated Auto Racers (ROAR) to resolve all outstanding issues regarding the removal of the Trinity D3.5/17.5 motor from the ROAR approved list.
The parties were able to reach a settlement without either party admitting or conceding any liability for claims raised in the lawsuit after Mr. Ernest Provetti of Trincorp, LLC was able to personally meet with ROAR’s President, Mr. Steve Mruk. At that meeting, the parties agreed that the interests of the individual racers. who purchased the Trinity D3.5/17.5 motor after ROAR initially approved the motor, should take priority in structuring the settlement. Accordingly, the parties crafted the terms of the agreement in order to provide a meaningful opportunity for those racers who had purchased the Trinity D3.5/17.5 motors to actually race the motors in ROAR sanctioned races for a specified period of time.
Under the terms of the agreement, the TRINITY D3.5/17.5 Trinity motor will be reinstated on the ROAR approved list on July 1, 2013 and will remain on that list though the first quarter of 2014, upon the release of the new TRINITY D4/17.5, when it will be removed. Trincorp has guaranteed this will occur before March 30, 2014.
I can go dig up plenty of club race schedules and advertisements for non-ROAR events during this time period which specifically state that D3.5 based motors are not allowed. Most tracks adhered to ROAR's decision on the ban. Once the ban took place people that owned D3.5 motors went out and bought new motors. When the motor was temporarily placed back on the approved list most tracks decided just to leave the ban in place so that people who did not have D3.5's would not protest the use of D3.5's because it was proven at this point there was a performance advantage.
04-05-2018, 11:09 AM
#433
Tech Master
iTrader: (47)
You were probably going to go buy the newest, fastest, greatest motor you could get your hands on and that was going to run you $150. Handout motors should be around $50. You can now race at one additional track for the same $150. Attendance is up
In addition, it's unlikely that a club will change their handout every year, so you should be able to get multiple seasons out of a handout motor versus having to go buy the newest fastest $150 motor for the season.
04-05-2018, 11:11 AM
#434
Tech Master
iTrader: (6)
And in a month or two somebody will come forth with a $450 motor with even more magic. Therein lies the problem with the current situation. Only 2 solutions make any sense to me. Option 1 - run handout motors. Option 2 - run motors (mod) that provide more power than anybody can effectively use...so that nobody needs to fret about wanting or needing more power. The one approach that I really dislike is what we have now....wherein we buy expensive motors in hopes of putting a competitive car on the track, only to find out right away that there is always something even faster than what you just paid too much for.
04-05-2018, 11:32 AM
#435
not sure...
But Im good either way now.... I just know as long as you dont mess with VTA or Mod...Im cool...lol