1Likes????Will We Ever See A 13.5 4WD Buggy Class????
12-30-2011, 09:12 AM
#46
At one time when brushed motors were still the rage, I was a big proponent of 19T 4wd 1/10 class. Not too slow as a stock 27T, but not full on mod.
I agree with those who believe that a slower class option can help bring people into it who like a 4wd 1/10 buggy but are concerned about full on mod speeds that are raced.
However, this is really just masking the issue which I believe is that the whole point of all this separation is for skill levels and using motor power is a way to do it without telling a person "Hey, you really should move up". But each track is different. What works as a great limit on one sucks on another.
As for the comparison to nitro which is pretty much everyone together with an engine "limitation" (albeit, some engines are definitely more "equal" than others), I think they are viewed as more easy to drive since they are also a bit bigger than there 1/10 4wd electric counter parts, and the electric ones also can get up to speed a whole lot quicker as well which can make them more difficult to drive.
I agree with those who believe that a slower class option can help bring people into it who like a 4wd 1/10 buggy but are concerned about full on mod speeds that are raced.
However, this is really just masking the issue which I believe is that the whole point of all this separation is for skill levels and using motor power is a way to do it without telling a person "Hey, you really should move up". But each track is different. What works as a great limit on one sucks on another.
As for the comparison to nitro which is pretty much everyone together with an engine "limitation" (albeit, some engines are definitely more "equal" than others), I think they are viewed as more easy to drive since they are also a bit bigger than there 1/10 4wd electric counter parts, and the electric ones also can get up to speed a whole lot quicker as well which can make them more difficult to drive.
I don't know why everyone is so ashamed of being in the C main. If someone really doesn't know what they are doing, just run a run what you brung Rookie class and throw 'em with the Revos.
We should be encouraging people to step up and run with the big dogs even if you are going to get trampled; that is the only way to get faster and better. Not sandbagging and getting Affirmative Action wins in Stock, 13.5, 17.5, blinky this or blinky that made up electric class of the week.
12-30-2011, 09:46 AM
#47
Reminds me of an experiment I saw once where people would get onto an elevator and the people already on the elevator would all face one direction OTHER than what you would expect. The new person went along with with without knowing why.
Same goes for those who run mod. A lot of them starting out feeling they have to go with a mod motor just like everyone else has, even if in reality a slower motor better suited for the track and / or there driving skills is what matters.
I guess its avoided in nitro as the motor is technically defined as ".21" when we know for a fact that the high dollar .21 will perform for sure different than the RTR .21 . A more fair comparison to electric would be saying all the motors have to be a 540 can.
Personally, i think at most a separation of Sportsman versus Pro probably is all that is needed, and as others have stated, a resort would mostly likely handle this.
You just have to stay on the hot heads who get mad when joe blow sportsman is in the same heat as them.
Same goes for those who run mod. A lot of them starting out feeling they have to go with a mod motor just like everyone else has, even if in reality a slower motor better suited for the track and / or there driving skills is what matters.
I guess its avoided in nitro as the motor is technically defined as ".21" when we know for a fact that the high dollar .21 will perform for sure different than the RTR .21 . A more fair comparison to electric would be saying all the motors have to be a 540 can.
Personally, i think at most a separation of Sportsman versus Pro probably is all that is needed, and as others have stated, a resort would mostly likely handle this.
You just have to stay on the hot heads who get mad when joe blow sportsman is in the same heat as them.
12-30-2011, 11:39 AM
#48
The only reason I see a 2 class situation is the really fast racers really don't want need or should even should have to race with people 3 or 4 laps down. Nor should a novice mod racer be subjected to that kind of racing. Having a 13.5/10.5, or cut your teeth into a full mod class is not a bad idea. So long as the mild mod class understands they will be running with slower traffic and if you don't like it move up. 18 lappers could easily run with 20 lappers. If the top 8 are running 19 laps or more, then 19 or more lappers should be bumped up. Regardless of motor size.
The only other option would be a resort after every round. And I like that option better. But seldom will any track do a resort after every round.
The only other option would be a resort after every round. And I like that option better. But seldom will any track do a resort after every round.
12-30-2011, 12:22 PM
#49
Why would anyone recommend to
a beginner to even consider a 4w ?
Way more complex , easier to break , repairs are more difficult and they take way more maintenance.....
not to mention the price ....
Hard to even understand how a beginner class would even work as most would never recommend a 4w to a beginner in the first place ....
a beginner to even consider a 4w ?
Way more complex , easier to break , repairs are more difficult and they take way more maintenance.....
not to mention the price ....
Hard to even understand how a beginner class would even work as most would never recommend a 4w to a beginner in the first place ....
12-30-2011, 12:41 PM
#50
Probably the only reason, they are easier to drive due to there nature of being 4wd when combined with reasonable power.
I think we are giving wheelers a bad rep with the whole complexity issue. To be honest, you have newbies getting into MTs and 1/8 buggies and such that are equal to more complex as any electric 1/10 4wd buggy.
And the whole complexity isn't exactly out there compared to a 2wd. few more gears, another diff, shaft or belt drive. Whammo, you got your difference.
Heck, when comparing my 4wd 1/10 buggy at the time to its 2wd counter part, since they both used ball diffs, once i new how to set one, heck, could set the other. And if its a gear diff setup, pretty straight forward.
As for difficulty in repairs, really depends on what you are repairing. On a shaft drive 4wd, lets say you pop the diff. One the vehicles I have had, fixing the ball diff was similar to fixing it in the 2wd as far as getting to it, fixing the part, and putting it back together. Few more screws maybe.
As for more maintenance, even there I think a lot of that can be relative to what kind of speed you are running the vehicle at. Full on mod you can push it more, so yes stuff will wear more. But, honestly I can't say I was doubling my maintenance on the wheelers I had compared to my 2wd stuff.
As for breakage, I feel that it was pretty much relative to the speeds I used the vehicle at. Same speeds, same breakage.
I agree with you on cost. Wheelers cost more. The fact that they have more moving parts means they will. However, I have to say for what I have seen out there, there are reasonable priced vehicles for the money that are good for racing just as there are some 2wd vehicles that are way up there for the money too.
I personally would recommend a 4wd to a beginner under these circumstances:
- There is a class where they can practice / race with it at there skill level (novice, etc)
- They are going to use a reasonable power plant for it
- They are comfortable with doing repairs in general or can get assistance (but this is pretty much what I would recommend on a 2wd as well)
To me, almost no different than a newbie getting a touring car when that craze was big.
I think we are giving wheelers a bad rep with the whole complexity issue. To be honest, you have newbies getting into MTs and 1/8 buggies and such that are equal to more complex as any electric 1/10 4wd buggy.
And the whole complexity isn't exactly out there compared to a 2wd. few more gears, another diff, shaft or belt drive. Whammo, you got your difference.
Heck, when comparing my 4wd 1/10 buggy at the time to its 2wd counter part, since they both used ball diffs, once i new how to set one, heck, could set the other. And if its a gear diff setup, pretty straight forward.
As for difficulty in repairs, really depends on what you are repairing. On a shaft drive 4wd, lets say you pop the diff. One the vehicles I have had, fixing the ball diff was similar to fixing it in the 2wd as far as getting to it, fixing the part, and putting it back together. Few more screws maybe.
As for more maintenance, even there I think a lot of that can be relative to what kind of speed you are running the vehicle at. Full on mod you can push it more, so yes stuff will wear more. But, honestly I can't say I was doubling my maintenance on the wheelers I had compared to my 2wd stuff.
As for breakage, I feel that it was pretty much relative to the speeds I used the vehicle at. Same speeds, same breakage.
I agree with you on cost. Wheelers cost more. The fact that they have more moving parts means they will. However, I have to say for what I have seen out there, there are reasonable priced vehicles for the money that are good for racing just as there are some 2wd vehicles that are way up there for the money too.
I personally would recommend a 4wd to a beginner under these circumstances:
- There is a class where they can practice / race with it at there skill level (novice, etc)
- They are going to use a reasonable power plant for it
- They are comfortable with doing repairs in general or can get assistance (but this is pretty much what I would recommend on a 2wd as well)
To me, almost no different than a newbie getting a touring car when that craze was big.
12-30-2011, 12:48 PM
#51
O sure , after that beginner strip's a few ring & pinions on his B44 due to lack of experience , you tell him its no big deal to work on the thing ...
or
maybe strips one the belts on his losi XX4 ? O-man !
On-road car's ?
Oyeah the beginners are really rushing to race those $600 mistakes
Lets get real will yeah ?
the only 4w that beginners are even using are the Sc4x4 as they are designed to be tuff & strong enough for a beginner ....
Get a Sc 4x4 if you have to have 4w and guess what ?
Lots of beginners in the Sc4x4 program and none are crying about the motors or class being to fast ...
or
maybe strips one the belts on his losi XX4 ? O-man !
On-road car's ?
Oyeah the beginners are really rushing to race those $600 mistakes
Lets get real will yeah ?
the only 4w that beginners are even using are the Sc4x4 as they are designed to be tuff & strong enough for a beginner ....
Get a Sc 4x4 if you have to have 4w and guess what ?
Lots of beginners in the Sc4x4 program and none are crying about the motors or class being to fast ...
Last edited by Wild Cherry; 12-30-2011 at 01:08 PM.
12-30-2011, 12:59 PM
#52
O sure , after that beginner strip's a few ring & pinions on his B44 due to lack of experience , you tell him its no big deal to work on the thing ...
or
maybe strips one the belts on his losi XX4 ? O-man !
On-road car's ?
Oyeah the beginners are really rushing to race those $600 mistakes
Lets get real will yeah ?
the only 4w that beginners are even using are the Sc4x4 and they are designed to be tuff & strong enough for a beginner ....
Your a beginner ?
get Sc 4x4 if you have to have 4w and guess what ?
Lots of beginners in the Sc4x4 program and none are crying about the motors or class being to fast ...
or
maybe strips one the belts on his losi XX4 ? O-man !
On-road car's ?
Oyeah the beginners are really rushing to race those $600 mistakes
Lets get real will yeah ?
the only 4w that beginners are even using are the Sc4x4 and they are designed to be tuff & strong enough for a beginner ....
Your a beginner ?
get Sc 4x4 if you have to have 4w and guess what ?
Lots of beginners in the Sc4x4 program and none are crying about the motors or class being to fast ...
I can see what the OP is trying to get at. Introduce a slower class so that newer (or even drivers coming from SCT) don't feel so intimidated by the ultra high speed that some of the cars can do.
12-30-2011, 01:05 PM
#53
I've seen people in this hobby that have a very large aptitude for mechanics and don't have issues building things, so just because one may be a beginner in this hobby, you can't always rule out that they never picked up a tool before.
I can see what the OP is trying to get at. Introduce a slower class so that newer (or even drivers coming from SCT) don't feel so intimidated by the ultra high speed that some of the cars can do.
I can see what the OP is trying to get at. Introduce a slower class so that newer (or even drivers coming from SCT) don't feel so intimidated by the ultra high speed that some of the cars can do.
No one is being intimidated with the speed's of Sc4x4 , go figure that one out ...
Why is Sc the fastest growing 4w class in the country right now ?
Surely not due to the lack of a spec class ....
just proves I'm right ...
No real need for spec motor's in our sport anymore.....
12-30-2011, 01:07 PM
#54
And that same beginner when he strips his spur gear in his 2wd vehicle, what then, it magically fixes itself? I know, its a spur gear, thats easy enough.
Or how about the beginners that got in 2wd SC10s with the gear diffs that get the magic click click click sound that isn't there for a speed boost? I take it tearing apart the gear diff to do the repair happens by the gear diff fairy?
Last I checked, you are still removing screws and replacing parts. Mating up gears to gears, and installing them using the instructions as provided. Funny, those newbies with nitro 1/8s and MTs with there variety of complexity seemed to be in no worse of shape.
Are 2wd's by there nature of only having that one diff easier. Sure, 1 versus 2, we get that. But are we talking that you need a mechanical engineering degree to work on a 4wd versus a 2wd, come off it now.
Vehicles break. Some more than others. How you use them and build them plays a large part in that, period.
I swear, the way people look at beginners sometimes when it comes to wheelers versus 2wd you would think they are neanderthals with fresh drool falling out of there mouths.
Or how about the beginners that got in 2wd SC10s with the gear diffs that get the magic click click click sound that isn't there for a speed boost? I take it tearing apart the gear diff to do the repair happens by the gear diff fairy?
Last I checked, you are still removing screws and replacing parts. Mating up gears to gears, and installing them using the instructions as provided. Funny, those newbies with nitro 1/8s and MTs with there variety of complexity seemed to be in no worse of shape.
Are 2wd's by there nature of only having that one diff easier. Sure, 1 versus 2, we get that. But are we talking that you need a mechanical engineering degree to work on a 4wd versus a 2wd, come off it now.
Vehicles break. Some more than others. How you use them and build them plays a large part in that, period.
I swear, the way people look at beginners sometimes when it comes to wheelers versus 2wd you would think they are neanderthals with fresh drool falling out of there mouths.
12-30-2011, 01:13 PM
#55
Cain
Obviously you have no understanding for a beginners abilities ..
personally work day after with the newbees and none so far have ever been smart or experience enough for even a 2w , much less a 1/10 4x4...
This sport has a very steep & long learning curve ...
Obviously you have no understanding for a beginners abilities ..
personally work day after with the newbees and none so far have ever been smart or experience enough for even a 2w , much less a 1/10 4x4...
This sport has a very steep & long learning curve ...
12-30-2011, 01:24 PM
#57
No one is being intimidated with the speed's of Sc4x4 , go figure that one out ...
Why is Sc the fastest growing 4w class in the country right now ?
Surely not due to the lack of a spec class ....
just proves I'm right ...
No real need for spec motor's in our sport anymore.....
Why is Sc the fastest growing 4w class in the country right now ?
Surely not due to the lack of a spec class ....
just proves I'm right ...
No real need for spec motor's in our sport anymore.....
Onroad no one has any hesitation of recommending to a beginner that they start with a TC which has the same level of complexity. Personally I would recommend 2WD Stock to a beginner, I think it is a better platform to develop your skills, but if someone was interested in 4WD, I have no problem telling them 4WD Stock will be good for them.
Which classes are popular has nothing to do with which classes are the right choices for racing. SCTs are in because they look scale, and to a beginner they are recognisable in the hobby store.
12-30-2011, 01:31 PM
#58
I agree in the sense that 2wd is better for a beginner in as far as making them a better driver as 4wd can help mask some of your driving issues.
But when combined with the appropriate speed at there level, yeah, there is nothing wrong with a wheeler. And if beginners in general can wrench on a touring car which from my days of racing them was quite common, they can do it on a wheeler.
Ultimately the problem now is just too much power that beginners are trying to put down. Heck even as a seasoned racer backing off on the power can make a world of difference on lap times.
But when combined with the appropriate speed at there level, yeah, there is nothing wrong with a wheeler. And if beginners in general can wrench on a touring car which from my days of racing them was quite common, they can do it on a wheeler.
Ultimately the problem now is just too much power that beginners are trying to put down. Heck even as a seasoned racer backing off on the power can make a world of difference on lap times.
12-30-2011, 01:53 PM
#59
History lesson: 4wd died off almost completely in the early 90's due to complexity and expense. Off road in general was hurting almost as bad. On-road touring cars came along courtesy of Tamiya and were an instant success. These care were more delicate and just as complicated as 4wd off road and nobody cared because they were slower than existing on-road, and could be driven on unimproved parking lots (where pan cars sucked). They got too fast, now they're dying off.
I'll say it again. Every time this hobby has been in trouble, it has been because the cars were too fast and difficult to race. The thing that saved it every time was the emergence a slower class (TC and SCT are the two best examples). When it gets too fast, it dies.
There absolutely needs to spec motor classes, they should all be 17.5 for 1/10 scale off road in my opinion, which is faster today than any stock class has ever been before. Anything faster is too fast.
12-30-2011, 02:02 PM
#60
Because it's the only growing 4wd class? Because it's another SC class?
I'll remind you again. Every time this hobby has been in trouble, the thing that saved it was the emergence a slower class (TC and SCT are the two best examples). When it gets too fast, it dies.
There absolutely needs to spec motor classes, they should all be 17.5 for 1/10 scale off road in my opinion. Anything faster is too fast.
I'll remind you again. Every time this hobby has been in trouble, the thing that saved it was the emergence a slower class (TC and SCT are the two best examples). When it gets too fast, it dies.
There absolutely needs to spec motor classes, they should all be 17.5 for 1/10 scale off road in my opinion. Anything faster is too fast.
name one class that has been saved by spec ?
on-road ?
Ha !
4w 1/10 , Stadium truck & 1/8E
all being replace by 4x4 Sc IMO
No such thing as too fast , again Sc4x4 is proving I'm right...
One major point Dave
stock is no longer consider a beginner class today , so the slow motors for beginners debate is out and in the ditch...