52LikesCarcar
12-24-2011, 02:45 AM
#8596
Just got back from Laguna Seca, getting through e-mails and PM's and posts and such so this is a long one.
Most of these are based on the good discussion and feedback from my GT question. A couple of things to clear up.
First for the conspiracy theorists: I am the CarCar WCICS rep. I am asking my local club what their thoughts are. The correct procedure is for the reps to discuss with their own club, and then make a motion to WCICS, where I get only one vote, just like every other club.
Now onto the question at hand. GT is an OPEN class. Not a spec class, it's sole purpose is to give a place for the odd cars to have a place to run if they want. and to give a place for new classes to grow. VTA is a good success story, and F1 is a good example of an older class that some still like to run. So it will always be open tire, body, etc. to allow that variety. So you can already run those cool scale bodies, sweet wheels, whatever. I was simply asking if people would like to migrate a BL system into GT as old BL systems get replaced in their other race cars, and as silver cans and brushed ESC's get harder to find.
Remember, the ORCA system was designed to be slower than the fast silver cans. So yes, a 21.5 is faster. And because we're not trying to force people to buy new motors just for the GT class, my suggestion was based on what other systems were out there that could be retired to GT in the future. It wouldn't make much sense to spec a motor that no other class uses, GT should be able to pick up on the equipment retired from other classes. Since the only class that runs 21.5 is VTA, which runs together with GT, that doesn't really make sense. Hence the ORCA suggestion. But this isn't meant to replace silver can, just allow people to switch over to a BL system as silver cans get scarce. BUT, I agree, IF people wanted to go with a BL system from scratch for GT, probably 25.5 would be a better choice. And so if someone has a car they want to build for GT, and have to buy a new brushless system anyway, there should be an option for that.
So a possibility is to open GT to silver can, ORCA, and 25.5. Thoughts?
Good that Wayne (SkaterX) cleared that misconception up about the ORCA's. All anyone has to do is look at the relative fast laps between Wayne, Ivan and I, to see nothing changed from Edmonton to Karz. And actually Ivan and I got closer to Wayne at Karz. I would have finished just a few seconds back from Wayne, but I made 2 driving errors. Not equipment, not marshalls, not motors, I personally made 2 unforced driving mistakes and that cost me.
Yeah, and how many products can we repeat that comment for? lol
Open body, open chassis, open tire. Just trying to get ahead of the curve on BL taking over from silver can in GT.
Well Gary, since you were at the WCICS meeting in August where all the reps discussed, modified, and voted for all the rules, I'm really not sure how you can say that. Hell, Aaron has it more correct than you and he wasn't even there! No, I'm not speaking for all of Western Canada, no single person does. I'm talking to my local club, what are you doing?
Can't believe I'm saying this, but Aaron is exactly correct!
As Scott is the Karz Rep, I can believe I'm saying this, Scott is exactly correct!
Glad you love your Mini. Please see above for the rest.
I'll say it YET again, I can't believe it, but Aaron is exactly correct!
Indeed, and I challenge you to show me any carpet race series in North America that had better numbers for 4 races. And same again for 2012 with 7 races. I think Scotty might get better numbers per race with ETS, but barely, and given the population density around his races in Europe is 10-100x the WCICS cities, what we have here is an incredible series!
We are darn lucky. And it's great that all the Mini/Silver can complaining is gone and people are having a great time. Bob, showing how close the racing was with silver cans vs. brushless (5.6% vs 5.5% equalized), should really just make people mad! Let's face it, those individuals that complained all last year about how "unfair" the silver can racing was, caused 1000's of volunteer and racer hours to be spent researching, testing, procuring, distributing, purchasing and installing the brushless systems. And those unfounded complainers, the type who blame equipment rather than looking in the mirror for the real problem, have cost everyone in the mini class almost $13,000 in brushless combo's to shut them up, only to have the numbers show that after all of that, silver cans were identical to brushless (using your comparison of the Edmonton A-mains). Bob was right last year, and he's just proven it. It's sad to say, but the entire Mini brushless change was done to stop the complaining.
All I can say is that YOU, the club racers, need to be more vigilant about allowing the vocal minorities complaining to go unchecked and unchallenged. Aaron's posts above, while I was away racing, are a great example. He's right, and he's standing up against someone who is posting untrue complaints. If more people stood up, you would all have at least $90, and in most cases, several hundred more $ in your pocket this Christmas.
Think about it.
Merry Christmas.
Josh
Most of these are based on the good discussion and feedback from my GT question. A couple of things to clear up.
First for the conspiracy theorists: I am the CarCar WCICS rep. I am asking my local club what their thoughts are. The correct procedure is for the reps to discuss with their own club, and then make a motion to WCICS, where I get only one vote, just like every other club.
Now onto the question at hand. GT is an OPEN class. Not a spec class, it's sole purpose is to give a place for the odd cars to have a place to run if they want. and to give a place for new classes to grow. VTA is a good success story, and F1 is a good example of an older class that some still like to run. So it will always be open tire, body, etc. to allow that variety. So you can already run those cool scale bodies, sweet wheels, whatever. I was simply asking if people would like to migrate a BL system into GT as old BL systems get replaced in their other race cars, and as silver cans and brushed ESC's get harder to find.
Remember, the ORCA system was designed to be slower than the fast silver cans. So yes, a 21.5 is faster. And because we're not trying to force people to buy new motors just for the GT class, my suggestion was based on what other systems were out there that could be retired to GT in the future. It wouldn't make much sense to spec a motor that no other class uses, GT should be able to pick up on the equipment retired from other classes. Since the only class that runs 21.5 is VTA, which runs together with GT, that doesn't really make sense. Hence the ORCA suggestion. But this isn't meant to replace silver can, just allow people to switch over to a BL system as silver cans get scarce. BUT, I agree, IF people wanted to go with a BL system from scratch for GT, probably 25.5 would be a better choice. And so if someone has a car they want to build for GT, and have to buy a new brushless system anyway, there should be an option for that.
So a possibility is to open GT to silver can, ORCA, and 25.5. Thoughts?
Absolutely Kev, on the weekend at the Karz Wcics, i did hear some comments that Wayne went through a couple of Orca mini motors and rotors to find the fastest one. I guess the fact that the guys is an extremely quick and extremely talented driver means nothing does it. Im loving the BL in mini considering the shear lack of motor maintenance now.... no more handling the silver cans with extreme care.
Something else to consider for the GT class. IF you went to BL, which have WAY more torque than any SC, please make the wind HIGHER. the 21.5 VTA class is already showing how quick they can be. IMHO its too quick, which is why the USVTA went to 25.5. If the GT class allows the 21.5 and no gearing limit, it will be quicker than any VTA car, PLUS u now have all the other 2wd chassis like F1 at a distinct disadvantage. Currently on the slower SC in GT, a 2wd F1 car with no weight limit, is damn close to a fast 4wd TC, both with SC's. Just something else to think about when going BL for GT.
Id like to see GT go BL, just wanted to raise the point, that while 21.5 feels nice in VTA with a 4.2 FDR rule, open the gearing and open the headaches for the 'catch-all' class. It will be fast, you can count on that. No longer will it be an entry style class. Slow them down and it will be much much better. Want to go fast? We have another 5 or so classes you can run!
Something else to consider for the GT class. IF you went to BL, which have WAY more torque than any SC, please make the wind HIGHER. the 21.5 VTA class is already showing how quick they can be. IMHO its too quick, which is why the USVTA went to 25.5. If the GT class allows the 21.5 and no gearing limit, it will be quicker than any VTA car, PLUS u now have all the other 2wd chassis like F1 at a distinct disadvantage. Currently on the slower SC in GT, a 2wd F1 car with no weight limit, is damn close to a fast 4wd TC, both with SC's. Just something else to think about when going BL for GT.
Id like to see GT go BL, just wanted to raise the point, that while 21.5 feels nice in VTA with a 4.2 FDR rule, open the gearing and open the headaches for the 'catch-all' class. It will be fast, you can count on that. No longer will it be an entry style class. Slow them down and it will be much much better. Want to go fast? We have another 5 or so classes you can run!
That's a pretty big stretch... Even Hara has his limits...... 
ZING
I'm starting to be of the opinion there were only 2 red dot motors in all of Canada. 
I just want to add, that if you guys take the rules to far in one direction, and it's not a class that's going on somewhere else, at some point you're gonna alienate a lot of drivers. Our group is already out of mini with the speedo change. Not how they race them elsewhere. And I'm not building a bunch more mini's... lol... And if the classes are to different from any where else, we have to build different cars for both.
Don't get to carried away. I'm just sayin.
ZINGI'm starting to be of the opinion there were only 2 red dot motors in all of Canada.
I just want to add, that if you guys take the rules to far in one direction, and it's not a class that's going on somewhere else, at some point you're gonna alienate a lot of drivers. Our group is already out of mini with the speedo change. Not how they race them elsewhere. And I'm not building a bunch more mini's... lol... And if the classes are to different from any where else, we have to build different cars for both.
Don't get to carried away. I'm just sayin.
Not really, you're making class rules up based on what you're local club wants to see as a test base. When it's done it's made into WCIC rules with little input from sources outside of CARCAR. Lots of clubs abide by TCS, USVTA, USGT, and ROAR rules with no deviations. Much like this topic is not on the WCIC forum but the CARCAR forum for discussion. I understand why, but not necessarily speaking for all of western Canada, just saying.
Probably because its mostly Carcar members who actively look into the best direction for our series, post results, talk about options etc etc, and its one of the strongest clubs in Wcics, who has the member base to test and find the best solutions, while still listening to all other clubs and members throughout the series..... Just saying.
Each club has the same vote as Carcar does, so quit the BS suggesting carcar only, makes rules for Wcics / Western Canada, and you have to just put up with it! All Wcics rules come from the votes of all clubs within the Wcics, so blame your own club if you dont like it. This is a constructive discussion about a Wcics class, what does it matter WHERE the discussion is?
Each club has the same vote as Carcar does, so quit the BS suggesting carcar only, makes rules for Wcics / Western Canada, and you have to just put up with it! All Wcics rules come from the votes of all clubs within the Wcics, so blame your own club if you dont like it. This is a constructive discussion about a Wcics class, what does it matter WHERE the discussion is?
Not really a fair statement Gary -
The BL change in Mini was the result of public opinion requesting something be done about the rampant perception everyone was cheating with special blend silvercan motors. Karz put in some legwork to help spec out a motor combo, that we decided to adopt for our club as well. Carcar followed suit as the Calgary clubs share a great number of racers.
Pretty sure that all WCICS rule changes are distilled from the forum input and reviewed / discussed with the WCICS reps - who represent the local clubs and racers - before incorporating into the global series ruleset. If you disagree with a class or want to see rule changes in the future, but don't want to participate in on-line forum discussion, get in touch with your local reps and be vocal. From my experience, all ideas and opinions are considered, however in the end rules are made to satisfy the masses, not the minority.
The BL change in Mini was the result of public opinion requesting something be done about the rampant perception everyone was cheating with special blend silvercan motors. Karz put in some legwork to help spec out a motor combo, that we decided to adopt for our club as well. Carcar followed suit as the Calgary clubs share a great number of racers.
Pretty sure that all WCICS rule changes are distilled from the forum input and reviewed / discussed with the WCICS reps - who represent the local clubs and racers - before incorporating into the global series ruleset. If you disagree with a class or want to see rule changes in the future, but don't want to participate in on-line forum discussion, get in touch with your local reps and be vocal. From my experience, all ideas and opinions are considered, however in the end rules are made to satisfy the masses, not the minority.
lol this is why i jumped on Gary's misguided post. Any club is entitled to do its own research and discuss class ideas anytime. How you two guys percieved this as 'Prospective rule changes for the Wcics series is literally beyond me. Ill say it YET again. Each club in the series gets to vote and discuss ALL rules and proposals. Carcar and its members can come up with 15 different class variations, and it can all be voted on at the proper time by each club.... and Carcar gets ONE vote. Make sense yet?
Indeed, a lot of territory, but the whole series in 2011 comprised of 293 total drivers, some of which ran multiple classes. 293 -Ivan is 285. just my guys were 21 of the 293, dropping it to 264. It's hard to explain but if you ran 3 classes in Regina and 3 in Calgary, that would make you 6 of the 293 total racers for the 4 race series.
Maybe 130 unique drivers total in the series, encompassing all 7 classes.
Mini is up in the series because the Chill' race added 18 more unique mini drivers. There are only 62 unique now 3 races in. 62-18 is 44, which is what we usually have between Edmonton and Calgary. in 2011 it was 43 for Edmonton and Calgary. And normally in the series we keep moving east, Lethbridge, then Regina (further to an edge, less traveling from the other edge). Mini is up because we added a mini friendly town to the series, now that I look at the numbers. What's up, is racer perception that the racing is more level.
Darn lucky to have a nice series within a reasonable driving distance.
Maybe 130 unique drivers total in the series, encompassing all 7 classes.
Mini is up in the series because the Chill' race added 18 more unique mini drivers. There are only 62 unique now 3 races in. 62-18 is 44, which is what we usually have between Edmonton and Calgary. in 2011 it was 43 for Edmonton and Calgary. And normally in the series we keep moving east, Lethbridge, then Regina (further to an edge, less traveling from the other edge). Mini is up because we added a mini friendly town to the series, now that I look at the numbers. What's up, is racer perception that the racing is more level.
Darn lucky to have a nice series within a reasonable driving distance.
We are darn lucky. And it's great that all the Mini/Silver can complaining is gone and people are having a great time. Bob, showing how close the racing was with silver cans vs. brushless (5.6% vs 5.5% equalized), should really just make people mad! Let's face it, those individuals that complained all last year about how "unfair" the silver can racing was, caused 1000's of volunteer and racer hours to be spent researching, testing, procuring, distributing, purchasing and installing the brushless systems. And those unfounded complainers, the type who blame equipment rather than looking in the mirror for the real problem, have cost everyone in the mini class almost $13,000 in brushless combo's to shut them up, only to have the numbers show that after all of that, silver cans were identical to brushless (using your comparison of the Edmonton A-mains). Bob was right last year, and he's just proven it. It's sad to say, but the entire Mini brushless change was done to stop the complaining.
All I can say is that YOU, the club racers, need to be more vigilant about allowing the vocal minorities complaining to go unchecked and unchallenged. Aaron's posts above, while I was away racing, are a great example. He's right, and he's standing up against someone who is posting untrue complaints. If more people stood up, you would all have at least $90, and in most cases, several hundred more $ in your pocket this Christmas.
Think about it.
Merry Christmas.
Josh
12-24-2011, 07:49 AM
#8597
Tech Fanatic
iTrader: (8)
Wow...40 registrations for a club race 2 days before Christmas 
! That's awesome! Had a great time last night, thanks to all who made it out. I was expecting just a handful of folks to show up last night and we had a full-blown race night.
Just wanted to wish everyone in CARCAR a very Merry Christmas and thank you all for making CARCAR what it is...a great club! I'm looking forward to more close, clean racing in the New Year.
Cheers,
Mike
! That's awesome! Had a great time last night, thanks to all who made it out. I was expecting just a handful of folks to show up last night and we had a full-blown race night.Just wanted to wish everyone in CARCAR a very Merry Christmas and thank you all for making CARCAR what it is...a great club! I'm looking forward to more close, clean racing in the New Year.
Cheers,
Mike
12-24-2011, 09:33 AM
#8598
Tamiya Min
Tamiya Min 23/12/2011
12-24-2011, 09:36 AM
#8599
Tamiya Min1
Tamiya Min 23/12/2011
12-24-2011, 09:39 AM
#8600
Touring Stock
Touring Stock 23/12/2011
12-24-2011, 09:41 AM
#8601
Touring Stock1
Touring Stock 23/12/2011
12-24-2011, 09:42 AM
#8602
Touring Stock2
Touring Stock 23/12/2011
12-24-2011, 09:44 AM
#8603
Touring Stock3
Touring Stock 23/12/2011
12-24-2011, 09:46 AM
#8605
Touring Super Stock
Touring Super Stock 23/12/2011
12-24-2011, 09:48 AM
#8606
Touring Super Stock1
Touring Super Stock 23/12/2011
12-24-2011, 01:17 PM
#8608
What Mike said!
Great to see everyone out having a fun time 2 nights before Xmas.
Next week:
Tuesday practice starts 5 pm unless Jim posts he's opening earlier.
Wednesday practice starts 6 pm unless Mario posts he's opening earlier.
Racing next Friday night doors open 5 pm!
Wishing everyone a Merry Christmas and a Very Happy New Year!
Ivan
Great to see everyone out having a fun time 2 nights before Xmas.
Next week:
Tuesday practice starts 5 pm unless Jim posts he's opening earlier.
Wednesday practice starts 6 pm unless Mario posts he's opening earlier.
Racing next Friday night doors open 5 pm!
Wishing everyone a Merry Christmas and a Very Happy New Year!
Ivan
12-24-2011, 05:05 PM
#8610
Tech Apprentice
kyosho Danano
Hey Green Owl I just got a Danano for Christmas if you want to check it out I can come down to carcar some night when I get back from Winnipeg. Picked it up here at a lhs.