VoneSkip

iTrader: (27)

Gday Craig

Does it have to be though ? When there is only 2 Clubs in Victoria capable of Filling thier Squad ... Therefore other Clubs like us will never have a Snowflakes Chance in Hell Winning the Shield , But it has always been like that with the Points System , And thats through no Fault of our own 85-90 % of our Nitro Members Compete Round after Round at VORTEC ..
As i said in an earlier Post if we ( Bendigo)was worried about Winning the Shield we would never compete because we have no hope anyways , But we enjoy the Racing and Get togethers these Meetings Offer

Momentum

iTrader: (5)

Skip,

Using you logic the English should have given up playing cricket years ago.

Under the existing rules it's most definitely possible for a club fielding only four entrants per class to win that class. Granted the odds are stacked against that club when another fields 10 - 15 drivers but that's part of the game.

At the Mornington round last year the competition was pretty much dominated by the local guys closely followed by those from SERCCC, but of course many of these competitors had the advantage of not only knowing the track but being close enough to be able to make it to Saturday practice. Similarly the KROMA guys did well at their home meet.

I'd still like to see the VORTEC series as a club against club competition. Maybe someone can come up with a formula that will allow this to continue.

Cache Ya,
Craig.

OZDC

iTrader: (16)

We've disagreed on this before Kapt'n (like adults I may add, not Internet clowns ) but I'll add my 2c. here.

I (with the prodding of Rob Lewis) was the MRCCR member that brought Lilydale into VORTEC. My main aim was to get the club members racing at other clubs thus promoting better inter-club relations. I saw this as the main reason for the interclub challenges and believed this was the main driving force behind VORTEC, not just another race or series.

Granted at times I was the only Lilydale member racing but I didnt really care, so what if SERCCC WAS the best club and won all the time, it was fair and gave other clubs something to aim for.

Similarly this is why I didnt agree with the exclusion of clubs like Lilydale and Geelong from holding an event. This was because it was deemed unfair that a club with minimal attendees during the year should get the financial rewards.
While this was the case I felt that most racers wouldnt give a toss who got the proceeds and would like to run at a different track. This is particularly the case with Lilydale which is a track so different to others in Victoria.

Having said that I don't particularly disagree with making it an individual event, perhaps have both, that way the club that 'supports' the series will be rewarded. Geez we still have the shield so it won't cost much. The interclub award could be a secondary award similar to the constructors title in F1 (although the constructors dont see it that way)

DC

kaptn

(This is a post from Adrian G on Bendigo site that i have copied to put on this site for discussion.)


Hi Kaptn,

Before I speak to you as Team G principle I want to have my say about VORTEC . Firstly VORTEC as we know it is, for the want of a better word is "stuffed", because you only have two classes. I say two because stock and pro-stock are 99% the same and then you have pro tourer.

Let me tell you something Kaptn and this is before you started racing. VORTEC had four classes, that had at least one and a half seconds between them. Racers started in stock and after 12 to 18 months they would move up to pro-stock and so on, but in their first 12 to 18 months in stock racers learnt a lot about driving and driver etiquette, so when they moved up they were all at the same level.

The way VORTEC is now after "stock/pro stock", if you want to take the next step and be competitive you have to have a shit load of money, and Kaptn you are probably aware of that by now because you are looking for a sponsored drive.

I think the tourer class should have stayed and been encouraged a bit more by VORTEC because it was a good lead in class to pro tourer, one very good example is Peter Jovanovic.

Now to try and fix things a bit, stock should be kit stock, as in no changes at all except tyres because they are consumable and most manufacturers don't sell these kit tyres seperately. Most of the kits on the market come equipt with good shocks, shock oils, diff oils/grease and pipes which allow them to be competitive enough in the stock class.

Pro-Stock should only have 2 rules. They are that the engine cannot be modified in anyway and must still be able to be started using the pullstart. Any other hop-up parts or modifications are allowed.

A class between Pro-Stock and Pro-Tourer should be re-instated. This class should be the same as the Pro-Tourer rules with the only exception being that only one engine may be used, for example a stock OS 12TZ 3 port (no engine modifications) etc.

That's my 2c worth..

P.S To the Kaptn, After some serious concideration i have decided to take you on as 2nd driver for Team G. Now i have to find a way to break the news to NT.

OZDC

iTrader: (16)

Lue/Kapt'n,

Of course I have a vested interest, not having raced much over the past year, but i dont agree with using the points to seed drivers.

Say the Jovanovovovvics go on a world tour for 6 months and want to run the next VORTEC round.

Are you really going to put them in the 'slowest' heat group.

Harder still, are you going to be the one to tell Pete Snr

Just make sure I'm there to see it.

Why not leave it up to the organiser to seed the drivers like AARCMCC events.
Club officials get to know who fits where in the scheme of things, and if it is a name they do not know, they can just call the club president and ask about the drivers skill level.
Works fine 95% of the time, AARCMCC frules actually allow for a re-grade, but I've never seen it used.

kaptn

Gday DC and happy new year.

Whilst i agree with most of what you say, i think you will find that the committee's of the clubs who are more involved than just racing do give a flying fat rat's freckle who is awarded VORTEC rounds.

Original proposal was for higher attending clubs to get preference for rounds. Lower attending clubs would still get a round but not as frequently as the other clubs. This was rejected.

Round robin was suggested and thus rejected.

Going to five rounds per year, so all clubs got a meet was suggested. General consenus was good. Since then, the racers have argued that this is too many VORTEC rounds in a year.

So we are back to three rounds plus end of year.

To suggest that Lillydale and Geelong get an even slice of a pie that they contribute little ingredients too is just plain and simply - unfair.

kaptn

DC, i think the hot weather has got to you. If the Jovanovics want to go on a world tour, good luck to them, i wish them all the best. AARCMARC do things their own way, we are not them.

Here in Victoria, we have VORTEC with it's own set of rules. AARCMARC governs it owns rules. When the Jovanovics return from their National Lampoon tour, they will filter into the system where their points currently dictate where they are.

What is you great concern for the Jovanovics anyway.

P.S rang Pete and have told him about this site.

kaptn

DC you are disecting what we have proposed - and we are fair game.

However, disecting but not offering a solution? Easy way out. If we are not on the money then give us something better to work with.

OZDC

iTrader: (16)

MY God, Kapt'n, I have never wanted VORTEC to be like AARCMCC, in fact with all due respect I see your views on certain issues more likely to send us down the AARCMCC path, while on the VORTEC committee I was usually against such changes.

However I was giving an example of how another governing body does its seedings, and how from my experience it works very well.
While a points system like the one you are suggesting is a fair way to find the winner of a race series, I don't think its a fair way to seed drivers.

As I said Kapt'n I do have a vested interest, while I would be happy running against beginners, There are some that would not

I was just using the J's as an example of our highest achievers at the moment.

Conversely a slower driver can have his racing messed up just as easily having to move over every 2nd lap

OZDC

iTrader: (16)

Kapt'n

I'm aware of what was decided on (although our readers may not be so aware) and was happy to abide by it (as a VORTEC committee member at the time) even though I disagreed.

As I mentioned in a previous post I did not agree with the emphasis on the financial concerns (valid as they may be) over the 'ideals' of VORTEC.

Basically we have differing opinions on this matter which is fine, I was just putting mine forward.

DC

kaptn

Running against beginners? You were one once, we have all been there. Grown and become better drivers.

I didn't see the AFL put Essendon into the finals last year because they were a better team "on paper".

As i said before, it is a system. A system in place to reward continual support of VORTEC for those of us not good enough to compete at National and/or international level. It is far from perfect, but we have had no complaints from anyone since it was introduced.

While we are on that topic, I am far from turning VORTEC into ARRCMARC. Yes i have been the instigator of many a change to VORTEC over the last couple of years, and i have not been alone. Whilst i suggest these changes, i am not the ruling body and all these changes have been voted in by the committee. Yes you have opposed most of them (you brought that up not me) an if you have issues, then talk to me about them. If you are so passionate now about VORTEC then lets see you once again at the meetings. They are open to anyone to participate, not just VORTEC reps.

This is an open forum to get the racers involved in telling us what they want.
We are never going to make everybody happy, that is a given. But if you have something positive or a suggestion to make to help make VORTEC better, then again i say let us hear it. Don't use this forum to scratch an itch you have had for a while.

OZDC

iTrader: (16)

Kapt'n,

I apologise if this is how I came across, I too hate those who continually criticise but offer no suggestions or assistance.
Please do not catagorise me as such, I would think you know me better than that.

I wouldnt say i 'disected' anything, i put forward a suggestion (as was requested) about 1 point out of 12, and offered an alternative opinion to one of your comments.

On that 1 item out of 12, i did indeed make a suggestion, but perhaps I should formalise it.

"I suggest that the current VORTEC points table not be used to seed drivers for VORTEC events. Instead the organisers use drivers past results. These could be taken from, but not limited to,past VORTEC events, AARCMCC championships and local club competition."


For everyone else reading this, we really do love each other, in fact I am seriously considering showing you how a Pro Tourer SHOULD be driven

DC

P.S I'm the one sitting on my fat arse in an air conditioned office, and your'e the tradie, i'd suggest that the heat would be affecting you more.

kaptn

You are a prick.

Working for yourself, there are no heat policies here. 40+ degrees putting in a reverse cycle air con. Sweating so much i'm fading away to a shadow, all the while punching away at my PDA having a stouse with you. All in all i'd say you win. Shit - hope i put some beers in the fridge for when i get home!!!

OZDC

iTrader: (16)

Sorry Kapt'n but you have me so wrong on almost all points.

I meant that beginners have just as much right to have a race day free of wondering if they will be taken out as the faster guys. The only difference being if they get hit from behind or in front

I joined VORTEC because I saw it as a great way to get clubs togther and allow those guys who would not normally do so, the opportunity to run at a a 'big' event on different tracks against drivers they would not normally race.
It was not bogged down by heaps of rules and adopted a KISS principle.

I did vote against some of SERCCC's proposals (not the only one) for reasons I have outlined previously, and voiced my opinion at the meetings. When outvoted i accepted it.

Lets not turn this into a sh1t fight, I'm just offering an alternative opinion, as requested, scratching an itch... maybe, or you could just call it voiceing a long held but opposing opinion.

As for rejoining the committee, I've had enough of committees to last me 6 lifetimes. I'm sure you know how it feels

Enough from us, I'll shut up for a while and let others comment.

I'm sure we'll chat when I'm next at SERCCC.

BTW Cash for comment, I am a paid member of SERCCC and have just re-joined Lilydale after 6months break.

Sp Racer

iTrader: (12)

Chaps...

First of all, I just need to let it out - the Vortec committee is not a "dictatorship" where we decide and everyone adheres to a plan, we have a common goal which is to keep nitro racing in Victoria alive and to grow the hobby/sport.We ( I ) want to make it better for everyone and am very keen to hear all sides of the fence - we are all racers !


I have seen the decay of Vortec events over the last few years and I feel that we need to get together and device some way of getting more people to these rounds - whether it's a change of format/ class/ food at the event/ DC 's hair style, I really don't care, what I want to see is more people at these events having fun!

The idea of putting up a Vortec thread is to get some more feedback from the guys that actually race - what are they thinking? - what are their ideas?

Quite often we have these Vortec meetings, share a meal, have a stubbie or two, everyone goes home happy , it's all positive stuff then we hear things aren't so rosy - the 6 round scenario comes to mind - everyone ( to the best of my recollection ) thought it was worth a try - now it's no good, OK, we'll change the calendar, no big deal ( KISS principle )


DC - re. the attendees vs race meetings at certain clubs, I think the argument is dead in the water, there is no way around it, our last attempt was to give every club an equal "slice" of the monetary pie, that has since been shot down in flames. Pardon my sarcasm but obviously it's too much of an expense to travel for any more than 1 hour every 2nd month for most racers....i'll leave that one open for comments...and I can get a lot more sarcastic... perhaps we need to re-visit the Idea that you had re. scheduling of rounds on a yearly basis again.

The problem I have, and it's very hard to not upset someone by it....look at this scenario...

I create a club, called Lue's RC, I join Vortec and have my 1 member ( me) race at all the rounds - then next year, I want to have a round at my track ( the car park at my local shopping center) I borrow MPRCCC's transponders, run a crappy event, pay for the trophies and pocket the rest to fund my R/C expenses over the next 12 months....is that fair? - how is that different to the "other" scenarios"

The "seeding" idea (in my opinion) was/ is there for 2 reasons,
Reason#1, to avoid some slower drivers having their race day spoiled by being put into a heat where they are like a fish out of water (and obviously the opposite) and #2 to generate some interest amongst racers - it really is not relevant - particularly in Pro Touring.

Adrian - it must be hot in Bendigo - did you fill your pool? ( re. Kaptn & DC comments)

I see what you say, consider this option -

pro touring "B" class - still the same cars, any engine, 2 speed - but not allowed to run there are the Jovanobrothers, Jesse, and anyone else that can string together a 5 min heat without breaking their car . This allows the guys that want to try pro touring to do so without fear of being in anyone's way and having to perform any sort of butchery on their cars.

An OS 12TZ is more than good enough to get you to the very pointy end of the field anyway - I don't think it's really necessary.

Stock class needs to be addressed - I agree 110% - you cannot create a car specific class - as for pro- stock, well, what you said is the current rules anyway!


My final comment as I put my asbestos jacket and helmet on ....

you cannot create a class to suit every driver - you shouldn't have to re-engineer the car to compete , remember the KISS principle!

Lets keep up these productive arguments and leave the bickering to guys racing at the Summernats!

Lue