Matched Cell Problems.
01-16-2007, 04:29 AM
#91
Charles,
Please put this quote "So far the Sanyo RC3600HV look like they are equal to RAW IB4200 Cells when it comes to Average voltage" on the American websites.
Why is it that you are the only person in the world that thinks the Sanyo 3600HV cell has the same average voltage as the IB cells. One lone voice. Do you know better than the rest of the world .... I doubt it.
Please put this quote "So far the Sanyo RC3600HV look like they are equal to RAW IB4200 Cells when it comes to Average voltage" on the American websites.
Why is it that you are the only person in the world that thinks the Sanyo 3600HV cell has the same average voltage as the IB cells. One lone voice. Do you know better than the rest of the world .... I doubt it.
01-16-2007, 04:33 AM
#92
Not saying whether I agree with either side here..
Has anyone actually run the Older Sanyo cells in a top end mod car on a regular basis?? What kind of feedback can you give us?
Do they perform as well? Do they last?
Other than that - All I can say is that I bought a bunch of cells of HarrisRC. Great service. Quick delivery and so far (Fingers crossed), no dead cells.
FYI:
My car: HB Cyclone, Running Spektrum, GTB and 4.5R
My cells: Harris Dirty dozen IB3800's, 6A charge, 25Mv peak.
My usage - Abusive! I only ever run against other mod cars (der..), and have ejected and rebuild my pack too many times to remember. These cells look very sorry indeed. But they still work. They take on roughly 4250Mah after a good year of use.
I store them with 500Mah or more, discharge on an oldschool led tray to 0.07V (Don't have one that does 0.09), and charge them straight after. They usually peak at around 58deg when its hot (summer).
Has anyone actually run the Older Sanyo cells in a top end mod car on a regular basis?? What kind of feedback can you give us?
Do they perform as well? Do they last?
Other than that - All I can say is that I bought a bunch of cells of HarrisRC. Great service. Quick delivery and so far (Fingers crossed), no dead cells.
FYI:
My car: HB Cyclone, Running Spektrum, GTB and 4.5R
My cells: Harris Dirty dozen IB3800's, 6A charge, 25Mv peak.
My usage - Abusive! I only ever run against other mod cars (der..), and have ejected and rebuild my pack too many times to remember. These cells look very sorry indeed. But they still work. They take on roughly 4250Mah after a good year of use.
I store them with 500Mah or more, discharge on an oldschool led tray to 0.07V (Don't have one that does 0.09), and charge them straight after. They usually peak at around 58deg when its hot (summer).
01-16-2007, 04:41 AM
#93
Originally Posted by addicted
No attack at you Charles
I have been reading this thread and no matter what people say you are mind stuck on these Sanyo cells. If you are that happy with them by all means run them . Your way of thinking i am sorry is old school.
Another reason as to why cells these days are matched at 30/35 amps is because this is the AVERAGE current drain on these cells in race conditions.{This could peak and can peak in excess of 100+ Amps(mainly mod and high end stock.)} Sanyos want substain this current drain.
IB cells are one of only a very few that can actually discharge up to 250 amps.Try that from a sanyo.
Do you really think Matchers just pick discharge and charge numbers out of the air with out first consulting Cell manufactures ,Do you also think matchers would be prepared to loose hundreds of dollars haveing cells fail to have to cover this expense themselves.I dont think so..DO YOU..
Sorry Charles Dont take personal offence at this post It isnt my intend
Tony
I have been reading this thread and no matter what people say you are mind stuck on these Sanyo cells. If you are that happy with them by all means run them . Your way of thinking i am sorry is old school.
Another reason as to why cells these days are matched at 30/35 amps is because this is the AVERAGE current drain on these cells in race conditions.{This could peak and can peak in excess of 100+ Amps(mainly mod and high end stock.)} Sanyos want substain this current drain.
IB cells are one of only a very few that can actually discharge up to 250 amps.Try that from a sanyo.
Do you really think Matchers just pick discharge and charge numbers out of the air with out first consulting Cell manufactures ,Do you also think matchers would be prepared to loose hundreds of dollars haveing cells fail to have to cover this expense themselves.I dont think so..DO YOU..
Sorry Charles Dont take personal offence at this post It isnt my intend
Tony
I think you need to do some maths on your 250 Amp discharge current. Using a realistic Internal resistance value calculate what the cells terminal voltage will be at 250 amps. The car will be almost stalled.
I know they are matching at 30/35 amps. The problem is that during racing the current is not CONSTANT at that value. It goes quite lower and a higher. Which means during the lower periods the cell has time to cool down a bit.
When matching at 35 amps contant current it's just too much for the cells to handle. They get too hot internaly and can be damaged.
As has been said by one of the matchers the IB4200's have a VERY high failure rate during matching. Surly that tells you something about the methods being used to match cells. Their is NO reason at all to match them at that current level. A Cells Capacity is the same at 10 amps, 20 amps and even 30 amps. So even matching at 10 amps will still give you a matched set. And it will not damage the cell at all.
I am sure they dont pick numbers out of the air. The problem is all the "tricks" they use to get those numbers. Any normal person testing the cells after they have recieved them will NEVER get the same results as printed on the paper. And as I have found recently you will be lucky if all the cells are still %100 capacity when you do get them. Cells can weaken in a few hours after being stressed highly.
No offence taken. And I hope none given either
Charles
01-16-2007, 04:42 AM
#94
Originally Posted by cannon
Charles,
Please put this quote "So far the Sanyo RC3600HV look like they are equal to RAW IB4200 Cells when it comes to Average voltage" on the American websites.
Why is it that you are the only person in the world that thinks the Sanyo 3600HV cell has the same average voltage as the IB cells. One lone voice. Do you know better than the rest of the world .... I doubt it.
Please put this quote "So far the Sanyo RC3600HV look like they are equal to RAW IB4200 Cells when it comes to Average voltage" on the American websites.
Why is it that you are the only person in the world that thinks the Sanyo 3600HV cell has the same average voltage as the IB cells. One lone voice. Do you know better than the rest of the world .... I doubt it.
You missed the key word I keep using..... "UNTOUCHED CELLS".....
I am not talking about MATCHED CELLS. Their is a BIG differance.
Maybe "Untouced" cells are useless for racing. But it is a GOOD indicator of the Manufacturing quality of the cells.
And it is a fact. I have compared the average Voltage on RAW Sanyo RC3600HV's to two RAW IB4200 Stick packs. And the Sanyo was in the middle of the two IB4200 RAW sticks at a 10 amp discharge rate.
Charles
01-16-2007, 04:50 AM
#96
Originally Posted by cannon
No use trying to help any more. Use your Sanyo cells. Everyone will have fun calling out "Lapping" to you several times a race
Charles .... no one races with the Sanyo cells around the world. If you think they are great, get on the American thredas and tell them.... they deserve a laugh
Again, not aimed at you
Charles .... no one races with the Sanyo cells around the world. If you think they are great, get on the American thredas and tell them.... they deserve a laugh
Again, not aimed at you
I will certainly NOT be using Matched IB4200's no matter what they can do. The risk is just too high.....
I am just trying to compare RAW chinese cells with RAW Japanese made cells. And the quaility differance looks very obvious.
This all started when I got rather upset after buying TWO matched sets of Chinese cells. And BOTH sets were Useless. The GP3700's had very low capacity and the IB4200's had 2 short circuit cells.
The 2 sets of Matched chinese cells were VERY cheap compared to the Matched RC3000's I bought 7 years ago. And I can see why..... From memory 7 years ago the Matched RC3000's were around $150. But for $150 I got FULL capacity and VERY good cells. The Chinese Matched cells at around $80 each I got two sets of Junk.
Charles
Last edited by Mosc_007; 01-16-2007 at 05:13 AM.
01-16-2007, 04:54 AM
#97
Originally Posted by cannon
So you are saying that an untouched Sanyo is equal to an untouched IB ..... not a hope.
Dont take this the wrong way but are you a retired engineer by chance?
Dont take this the wrong way but are you a retired engineer by chance?
If you dont believe my test results then do what I do. I never believe what people tell me.
TEST them for yourself. The IB4200's obvioulsy have a higher runtime but the average voltage on the RC3600HV's and the IB4200's during the 10 Amp discharge test is equal.
If you dont want to test them yourself then get the manufactures data sheet for the RC3600HV's and the IB4200's and have a look at the discharge curve at 10 amps on both. You will see what I mean.
Again, As some people miss it. I mean Untouched, Raw cells. (Not aimed at you).
Charles
Last edited by Mosc_007; 01-16-2007 at 05:15 AM.
01-16-2007, 04:55 AM
#98
Originally Posted by Mosc_007
Looks like I am wrong again 
Intellect IB4200 Batteries have been making great strides in the area of NiMH Batteries. They are so far ahead of the competition that they are the first manufacturer of NiCD or NiMH batteries that CAN Explode in a rather Violent manner.
I have just been reading one of the other threads in this Forum were their are TWO seperate reports of a IB4200 Cell Exploding in what sounds like a rather Violent manner. Luckely no one has been hurt yet.
No matter how much you abuse a NiCD or NiMH cell in the past they have never exploded in a Violent manner. They have melted, Split open and the guts spilt out but NEVER exploded Violently.
Maybe this is the reason why Sanyo's highest capcity cell is only 3600 mAh. Maybe once you go beyond this figure the techiniques required to increase the capacity further is leading to Dangerious cells. That can, And in fact, Have already exploded on at least 2 occurences. And thats only on this forum. Their must be many more of them exploding world wide that we dont know about. From what I read they were Matched cells.
The IB4200 is the only NiMH cell I have ever seen that can go Short Circuit. This used to only happen to NiCD cells when reverse charged or discharged to far. But they NEVER went short circuit when fully charged. With the Violent explosions reported from the IB4200 it sounds like they are even going short circuit when fully charged. Now that is bloody dangerious.
If the IB4200's start to explode at too many race meetings I can see them being banned rather quickly.
The Chinese are so interested in catching the world market by supplying VERY high capacity cells that they are diss-reguarding safety to do it.....
Charles
Intellect IB4200 Batteries have been making great strides in the area of NiMH Batteries. They are so far ahead of the competition that they are the first manufacturer of NiCD or NiMH batteries that CAN Explode in a rather Violent manner.
I have just been reading one of the other threads in this Forum were their are TWO seperate reports of a IB4200 Cell Exploding in what sounds like a rather Violent manner. Luckely no one has been hurt yet.
No matter how much you abuse a NiCD or NiMH cell in the past they have never exploded in a Violent manner. They have melted, Split open and the guts spilt out but NEVER exploded Violently.
Maybe this is the reason why Sanyo's highest capcity cell is only 3600 mAh. Maybe once you go beyond this figure the techiniques required to increase the capacity further is leading to Dangerious cells. That can, And in fact, Have already exploded on at least 2 occurences. And thats only on this forum. Their must be many more of them exploding world wide that we dont know about. From what I read they were Matched cells.
The IB4200 is the only NiMH cell I have ever seen that can go Short Circuit. This used to only happen to NiCD cells when reverse charged or discharged to far. But they NEVER went short circuit when fully charged. With the Violent explosions reported from the IB4200 it sounds like they are even going short circuit when fully charged. Now that is bloody dangerious.
If the IB4200's start to explode at too many race meetings I can see them being banned rather quickly.
The Chinese are so interested in catching the world market by supplying VERY high capacity cells that they are diss-reguarding safety to do it.....
Charles
Every cell type / capacity we've used over the last 20 years could explode under the right (i.e wrong) conditions regardless of whether they are matched or not, so its no surprise that a couple have exploded. Its a reminder that cells can be dangerous...
You point the finger at the manufacturer and matchers but fail to consider other factors outside of their control which could cause a cell to become unstable.
If I took a cell out of a pack, threw it hard against concrete and put it back into the pack for charge / use / discharge should I really expect the cell to perform as it did before? Wouldn't you expect it to develop a problem, if not fail in some way, whether spectacular or not. Extreme example but are the mechanical forces involved that much different to our RC cars?
What about the ESC's? They are designed to have virtually no resistance which dumps the power out the cells at an astronomical rate. Surely if an ESC or motor shorts it will put huge stress on the cells, more so than the charging / matching process...
I think you will find the reason why Sanyo stopped at 3600 is because they couldn't compete. Their previous NiMH offerings (RC-3000, RC-3000HV, RC-3300HV) seemed to be unpredictable in their output, reliability and life expectancy. The GP3300 blew all of that away particularly when the second version came out.
Chris
01-16-2007, 04:59 AM
#99
Originally Posted by cannon
Charles,
Please put this quote "So far the Sanyo RC3600HV look like they are equal to RAW IB4200 Cells when it comes to Average voltage" on the American websites.
Why is it that you are the only person in the world that thinks the Sanyo 3600HV cell has the same average voltage as the IB cells. One lone voice. Do you know better than the rest of the world .... I doubt it.
Please put this quote "So far the Sanyo RC3600HV look like they are equal to RAW IB4200 Cells when it comes to Average voltage" on the American websites.
Why is it that you are the only person in the world that thinks the Sanyo 3600HV cell has the same average voltage as the IB cells. One lone voice. Do you know better than the rest of the world .... I doubt it.
I dont THINK they have the same average voltage. I KNOW they have the same average voltage because I have tested them MYSELF. That is at a 10 amp constant current discharge with both Raw sets.
I doubt many people have actualy tested them. Most people are playing with Matched sets. And its very difficult to buy Untouched cells just to test them.
When comparing Matched sets I am sure the IB4200's are miles ahead of the Raw sanyo cells.
Charles
01-16-2007, 05:00 AM
#100
Originally Posted by Mosc_007
No I am not retired. I am 46 Years old.
If you dont believe my test results then do what I do. I never believe what people tell me.
TEST them for yourself. The IB4200's obvioulsy have a higher runtime but the average voltage on the RC3600HV's and the IB4200's during the 10 Amp discharge test is equal.
Again, As some people miss it. I mean Untouched, Raw cells. (Not aimed at you).
Charles
If you dont believe my test results then do what I do. I never believe what people tell me.
TEST them for yourself. The IB4200's obvioulsy have a higher runtime but the average voltage on the RC3600HV's and the IB4200's during the 10 Amp discharge test is equal.
Again, As some people miss it. I mean Untouched, Raw cells. (Not aimed at you).
Charles
01-16-2007, 05:06 AM
#101
charles i am sorry but 99% of post is worthless to anyone who actually races.....
have fun cycling drill batteries......
There is a major reason behind the rise of the chinese cells....
cos sanyo cells are average at very best.... voltage, runtime, IR..... they cannot possibly compete.... Do some real research.... when released they WERE the highest capacity cell..... GP still ran a 3300...
But you obviously know something the rest of the world doesn't..... i'd say best of luck in the d-main...........
have fun cycling drill batteries......
There is a major reason behind the rise of the chinese cells....
cos sanyo cells are average at very best.... voltage, runtime, IR..... they cannot possibly compete.... Do some real research.... when released they WERE the highest capacity cell..... GP still ran a 3300...
But you obviously know something the rest of the world doesn't..... i'd say best of luck in the d-main...........
01-16-2007, 05:06 AM
#102
Originally Posted by vr01
And your point is???
Every cell type / capacity we've used over the last 20 years could explode under the right (i.e wrong) conditions regardless of whether they are matched or not, so its no surprise that a couple have exploded. Its a reminder that cells can be dangerous...Chris
Every cell type / capacity we've used over the last 20 years could explode under the right (i.e wrong) conditions regardless of whether they are matched or not, so its no surprise that a couple have exploded. Its a reminder that cells can be dangerous...Chris
I have seen ABUSED cells before that have melted and split open but neven Violently exploded.
I am talking about NiCD or NiMH cells. Lithiom have caught on fire and Lead Acid batteries do Explode violently at times. But Never have NiCD or NiMH cells expolded violently untill the IB4200 came along. And I suspcect it was the matching that weakened the cells allowing them to go short circuit when fully charged. They must have a VERY Thin insulation layer between the +ve and -ve layers which allows them to breakdown. They must be thinner in order to get more chemical in the cell to give more capacity.
Charles
01-16-2007, 05:14 AM
#103
Tech Rookie
This has to be one of the funniest threads I have ever read.
But why do those who know what they are talking about and whose advice I would trust waste so much time trying to correct “FACTS” that aren’t?
Next, just because odd words are put in upper case does not make them unarguably true. Upper case CRAP is still crap in anybody’s language. It is just a bigger load of crap.
Oh yeah and finally in the true spirit of this thread … These comments are not aimed at you.
Mick
PS. I want to see a 6,000 word essay refuting these throw away comments by morning. I can’t wait to read it!
But why do those who know what they are talking about and whose advice I would trust waste so much time trying to correct “FACTS” that aren’t?
Next, just because odd words are put in upper case does not make them unarguably true. Upper case CRAP is still crap in anybody’s language. It is just a bigger load of crap.
Oh yeah and finally in the true spirit of this thread … These comments are not aimed at you.
Mick
PS. I want to see a 6,000 word essay refuting these throw away comments by morning. I can’t wait to read it!
01-16-2007, 05:18 AM
#104
The derogatory approach of considering Intellect cells as chea chinese stuff and Sanyo ones as top notch japanese stuff is completely false.
As perfectly stated above, every cell model in the past 20 years has vented or exploded at some point in their R/C use... regardless of make and model.
Intellect, GP and Sanyos are all world class companies, probably now all 3 operate out of China these days, and would not be so widespread if they were "junk".
The fair analysis of the failure rate of IB4200 is that they own most of the R/C market at this stage, hence are matched in higher volumes, so volumes are a factor
Another factor is that it is a fact that IB works very agressively with the R/C industry and are probably willing to push the envelope a bit more - especially considering that they ve been gaining market share tremendously in the past years.
As perfectly stated above, every cell model in the past 20 years has vented or exploded at some point in their R/C use... regardless of make and model.
Intellect, GP and Sanyos are all world class companies, probably now all 3 operate out of China these days, and would not be so widespread if they were "junk".
The fair analysis of the failure rate of IB4200 is that they own most of the R/C market at this stage, hence are matched in higher volumes, so volumes are a factor
Another factor is that it is a fact that IB works very agressively with the R/C industry and are probably willing to push the envelope a bit more - especially considering that they ve been gaining market share tremendously in the past years.
01-16-2007, 05:18 AM
#105
Mosc_007 no offense but you started this thread with the comment "Firstly, I have been out of the RC 1/10th onroad scene for a number of years."
Perhaps you should note the fact that of the people replying they include the owners of Australia's two largest battery matching companies (cannon/addicted) and i have yet to see anyone agree with your notion that "matching is bad for cells".
I stick to my earlier comment that no-one in this thread has confirmed your theory that matching batteries is bad for cells, so i do not understand why you continue to maintain such.
Perhaps you should note the fact that of the people replying they include the owners of Australia's two largest battery matching companies (cannon/addicted) and i have yet to see anyone agree with your notion that "matching is bad for cells".
I stick to my earlier comment that no-one in this thread has confirmed your theory that matching batteries is bad for cells, so i do not understand why you continue to maintain such.