2012 AARCMCC EP10 OFR NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS - April 4 - 9
03-28-2012, 10:22 PM
#602
On another note can everyone read the rules on how qualifying works?
There's always a few people who think they're allowed to block a car that started after them and is now right on their arse. Yeah you might win your heat by taking everyone else out, but combine all the heats and you'll end up in the E.
There were lots of complaints about this last weekend..
There's always a few people who think they're allowed to block a car that started after them and is now right on their arse. Yeah you might win your heat by taking everyone else out, but combine all the heats and you'll end up in the E.
There were lots of complaints about this last weekend..
03-28-2012, 10:48 PM
#603
Tech Fanatic
iTrader: (23)
Ok, I'll play hypothetical. Assuming that the pack was approved at pre-scrutineering (as one that was on the ROAR/BRCA list and had nominal specs matching the dimensions given) and hadn't been singled out by a scrutineer as being excessively puffed prior to that race then I would take the following actions in order:
Will batteries be checked and marked at the start of the day?
0) Proceedings would be suspended for 10 minutes and all cars retained in scrutineering.
1) The pack would be isolated (somewhere within scrutineering to comply with 8.5.4) and contained within a LiPo sack in accordance with 12.3.8, as 30.34 mm is clearly puffed enough as to be dangerous (it is a 25% increase in size).
This is where we require a MPH (maximum puff height). It would eliminate any guessing on what is or is not considered as puffed.
2) If at all possible without putting myself in mortal danger I would try and take a voltage measurement of the pack. If it is still 8.4V at the end of the race then it certainly would have been at the start and Mr Trowler would be disqualified (sorry Todd) under 12.4.1 (2).
Interesting comment.
3) I would inspect Mr Trowler's charging equipment to try and verify that it complies with rules. If it becomes clear that the pack was charged with a charger that didn't comply with 12.4.1 (1) then disqualification would result. If the last parameters entered into the charger indicated that the pack was charged with parameters outside those specified in 12.3.4 disqualification would result.
An official needs to see charging infringement as it happens. If I have two chargers on my table, how are the official going to know which one I was using prior to the race?
4) I would check to make sure that Mr Trowler's vehicle was fitted with a LiPo cut-off device (or ESC) with the cut-off set for no less than 6V. Discharging below 6V can cause puffing, so if this rule is breached the disqualification would result (12.3.2).
The rules don’t state that it has to be turn on, only fitted. Grey area. ESC these day allow you to turn off lipo cut-off.
5) I would double check with the scrutineer to ensure that they hadn't previously informed Mr Trowler that one of his packs had come back excessively puffed and needed to be discarded. This is to be recorded by scrutineers under rule 8.4.2. If he was found to be using a pack he'd been instructed by a scrutineer not to use then disqualification would result under 8.4.2.
Rule 8.4.2 has to do with car body dimensions only. If a driver as a battery for each race, then the scrutineers may never have checked it until after a heat or final. At the end of the day it is up to the competitors complying too the rules.
6) If having carried out all these actions and found that all the correct rules for charging had been complied with, and determined that the battery was not over voltage nor had it been excessively puffed before the race then the result would stand. As in this instance it would be clear Mr Trowler had done what was required of him within the regulations to race a legal car. If the pack puffed during the race then I can only assume that it was as a result of crash damage. Rule 8.4.2 excepting crash damage at scrutineering is routinely applied to everything from an A-Arm torn off to a wing bent up, and so I would apply it here too in letting the result stand (Provided of course Mr Trowler didn't ignore a black flag issued during the race under 8.4.3 for the car catching fire or something).
If you did find the protest upheld, them there would be no reason to go use number 7) below. Who care if the other driver is not satisfied with the out come? You followed the rules.
7) If having made my decision the competitor did not accept it, I would call the State Jury in compliance with 8.5.7.
We have used the State Jury mainly on the grey areas in the rules. Nitro On-road rules state a pitcrew can not fix a car on the track. That is a pretty straight forward. Or is it?
A marshal re attached a 1/8th wheels when it fell off the leading car, this car went on to win the national. A protest was lodged because the car was fixed on the and rejected. Why, cause of the word “pitcrew”. Sorry, but there is nothing in the rules about marshal repairing cars during a race.
Tod was 3rd in line to win the Nationals and was not the driver who lodged the protest. He need both 1st and 2nd finish last to have any chance of holding up the trophy.
Will batteries be checked and marked at the start of the day?
0) Proceedings would be suspended for 10 minutes and all cars retained in scrutineering.
1) The pack would be isolated (somewhere within scrutineering to comply with 8.5.4) and contained within a LiPo sack in accordance with 12.3.8, as 30.34 mm is clearly puffed enough as to be dangerous (it is a 25% increase in size).
This is where we require a MPH (maximum puff height). It would eliminate any guessing on what is or is not considered as puffed.
2) If at all possible without putting myself in mortal danger I would try and take a voltage measurement of the pack. If it is still 8.4V at the end of the race then it certainly would have been at the start and Mr Trowler would be disqualified (sorry Todd) under 12.4.1 (2).
Interesting comment.
3) I would inspect Mr Trowler's charging equipment to try and verify that it complies with rules. If it becomes clear that the pack was charged with a charger that didn't comply with 12.4.1 (1) then disqualification would result. If the last parameters entered into the charger indicated that the pack was charged with parameters outside those specified in 12.3.4 disqualification would result.
An official needs to see charging infringement as it happens. If I have two chargers on my table, how are the official going to know which one I was using prior to the race?
4) I would check to make sure that Mr Trowler's vehicle was fitted with a LiPo cut-off device (or ESC) with the cut-off set for no less than 6V. Discharging below 6V can cause puffing, so if this rule is breached the disqualification would result (12.3.2).
The rules don’t state that it has to be turn on, only fitted. Grey area. ESC these day allow you to turn off lipo cut-off.
5) I would double check with the scrutineer to ensure that they hadn't previously informed Mr Trowler that one of his packs had come back excessively puffed and needed to be discarded. This is to be recorded by scrutineers under rule 8.4.2. If he was found to be using a pack he'd been instructed by a scrutineer not to use then disqualification would result under 8.4.2.
Rule 8.4.2 has to do with car body dimensions only. If a driver as a battery for each race, then the scrutineers may never have checked it until after a heat or final. At the end of the day it is up to the competitors complying too the rules.
6) If having carried out all these actions and found that all the correct rules for charging had been complied with, and determined that the battery was not over voltage nor had it been excessively puffed before the race then the result would stand. As in this instance it would be clear Mr Trowler had done what was required of him within the regulations to race a legal car. If the pack puffed during the race then I can only assume that it was as a result of crash damage. Rule 8.4.2 excepting crash damage at scrutineering is routinely applied to everything from an A-Arm torn off to a wing bent up, and so I would apply it here too in letting the result stand (Provided of course Mr Trowler didn't ignore a black flag issued during the race under 8.4.3 for the car catching fire or something).
If you did find the protest upheld, them there would be no reason to go use number 7) below. Who care if the other driver is not satisfied with the out come? You followed the rules.
7) If having made my decision the competitor did not accept it, I would call the State Jury in compliance with 8.5.7.
We have used the State Jury mainly on the grey areas in the rules. Nitro On-road rules state a pitcrew can not fix a car on the track. That is a pretty straight forward. Or is it?
A marshal re attached a 1/8th wheels when it fell off the leading car, this car went on to win the national. A protest was lodged because the car was fixed on the and rejected. Why, cause of the word “pitcrew”. Sorry, but there is nothing in the rules about marshal repairing cars during a race.
Tod was 3rd in line to win the Nationals and was not the driver who lodged the protest. He need both 1st and 2nd finish last to have any chance of holding up the trophy.
Last edited by Boz; 03-28-2012 at 11:06 PM.
03-28-2012, 11:25 PM
#604
Camping at the Titles
One more reminder.
If you want to camp at the showgrounds you need to pre register with me.
I've just replied to PM's of those who have already provided me details. If you have not received a PM from me confirming your spot and you wish to camp at the showgrounds during the event, you need to PM me your name and car rego number before this Sunday so I can send the details to council on Monday.
Thanks
If you want to camp at the showgrounds you need to pre register with me.
I've just replied to PM's of those who have already provided me details. If you have not received a PM from me confirming your spot and you wish to camp at the showgrounds during the event, you need to PM me your name and car rego number before this Sunday so I can send the details to council on Monday.
Thanks
03-28-2012, 11:58 PM
#606
WOW! Guys, you are working yourselves up into a lather here.
Common sense will see every one who's battery is on the approved lists, as being passed, unless there is evidence of tampering or the pack is excessively bloated. We are certainly not going to mar this event by DQing competitors who battery is not 'exact'.
We have to allow for some tolerances here, as we do with scales. In a perfect world, scales and boxes are measured precisely, but when we get trackside, weather and other elements compound different measurements in different ways.
Feet & Knobs on the bottom of battery cases have never come into the equation either.
Also, we have the State Jury available to deal with such issues, as we have done with Scales & Chutes in the past.
So let's go racing.
Mav
Common sense will see every one who's battery is on the approved lists, as being passed, unless there is evidence of tampering or the pack is excessively bloated. We are certainly not going to mar this event by DQing competitors who battery is not 'exact'.
We have to allow for some tolerances here, as we do with scales. In a perfect world, scales and boxes are measured precisely, but when we get trackside, weather and other elements compound different measurements in different ways.
Feet & Knobs on the bottom of battery cases have never come into the equation either.
Also, we have the State Jury available to deal with such issues, as we have done with Scales & Chutes in the past.
So let's go racing.
Mav
Certainly a different tune to the one that was playing on Sunday last week.
I am glad that you have, as the ARCMCC delegate, finally put the issue to rest. Glad that common-sense approach came to the fore.
Cheers
Darryn
03-29-2012, 12:00 AM
#607
Yes they will be marked.
I agree a test to quantify puffing would be useful. ROAR use a "rock test". If the pack can rock backward and forward on a table it is too puffed to be used.
I do my best not to be boring. I write too much for everyone to read through it otherwise.
If you have two chargers on your table and there are no witnesses then I can't verify that an infringement has taken place. The same situation applies if you protest because someone hacked you. Unless it can be verified beyond a reasonable doubt I can't uphold the protest.
The rules say the cut-off device "installed that will not allow the battery to discharge below 6 Volts minimum." If it is turned off then it is still allowing the pack to discharge below 6 Volts, and is therefore in contravention of the rule.
True, 8.4.2 only specifically mentions the body. I believe this to be an error not picked up in the rewrite because the old rules applied to any crash damage, and as I indicated it is routinely applied to any form of crash damage. When was the last time you saw someone DQ'ed for having an A-arm ripped off?
8.5.7 says I have to if the protest is presented through a State Delegate.
I've never been involved in IC ONR so I really can't comment without learning a whole new set of rules. Though 7.2.11 would prevent a marshal working on a car at an EP OFR event.
Could we hold all further questions please? I need to work on my car for the Nats now.
I agree a test to quantify puffing would be useful. ROAR use a "rock test". If the pack can rock backward and forward on a table it is too puffed to be used.
I do my best not to be boring. I write too much for everyone to read through it otherwise.
If you have two chargers on your table and there are no witnesses then I can't verify that an infringement has taken place. The same situation applies if you protest because someone hacked you. Unless it can be verified beyond a reasonable doubt I can't uphold the protest.
The rules say the cut-off device "installed that will not allow the battery to discharge below 6 Volts minimum." If it is turned off then it is still allowing the pack to discharge below 6 Volts, and is therefore in contravention of the rule.
True, 8.4.2 only specifically mentions the body. I believe this to be an error not picked up in the rewrite because the old rules applied to any crash damage, and as I indicated it is routinely applied to any form of crash damage. When was the last time you saw someone DQ'ed for having an A-arm ripped off?
8.5.7 says I have to if the protest is presented through a State Delegate.
I've never been involved in IC ONR so I really can't comment without learning a whole new set of rules. Though 7.2.11 would prevent a marshal working on a car at an EP OFR event.
Could we hold all further questions please? I need to work on my car for the Nats now.
03-29-2012, 01:06 AM
#608
there is 30 minutes and 4 pages of reading RCtech that I won't get back....
looks like the nationals will be won in tech.
make sure you are all up to speed on your rule book guys.
if any of you actually to pass tech and get to race enjoy it and good luck.
on race morning delegates should immediately vote out the insane tire quantity rule and the battery box rule. both are not worth policing. let the host club get on with running a good race and the competitors enjoy themselves and the camaraderie in the pits.
looks like the nationals will be won in tech.
make sure you are all up to speed on your rule book guys.
if any of you actually to pass tech and get to race enjoy it and good luck.
on race morning delegates should immediately vote out the insane tire quantity rule and the battery box rule. both are not worth policing. let the host club get on with running a good race and the competitors enjoy themselves and the camaraderie in the pits.
03-29-2012, 01:30 AM
#609
there is 30 minutes and 4 pages of reading RCtech that I won't get back....
looks like the nationals will be won in tech.
make sure you are all up to speed on your rule book guys.
if any of you actually to pass tech and get to race enjoy it and good luck.
on race morning delegates should immediately vote out the insane tire quantity rule and the battery box rule. both are not worth policing. let the host club get on with running a good race and the competitors enjoy themselves and the camaraderie in the pits.
looks like the nationals will be won in tech.
make sure you are all up to speed on your rule book guys.
if any of you actually to pass tech and get to race enjoy it and good luck.
on race morning delegates should immediately vote out the insane tire quantity rule and the battery box rule. both are not worth policing. let the host club get on with running a good race and the competitors enjoy themselves and the camaraderie in the pits.
We need a rule to stop people using really puffed lipo's. Maybe something like +5% of new hight?
03-29-2012, 01:51 AM
#610
I have read through some of the last few pages and I'm starting to wonder about running at the nats. Now keep in mind that whilst I'm not exactly new to all this, it has been 15+ years since I have run a major electric event.
My equipment consists of a Novak GTB speed control (5+ years old and no LiPo cutoff as far as I'm aware), some Venom shorty packs and a Swallow charger. Will this get me through scrutineering for 2wd mod?
I'm only coming to make up the numbers and see the best run EP but if it is going to require significant expenditure I can just come and watch!
My equipment consists of a Novak GTB speed control (5+ years old and no LiPo cutoff as far as I'm aware), some Venom shorty packs and a Swallow charger. Will this get me through scrutineering for 2wd mod?
I'm only coming to make up the numbers and see the best run EP but if it is going to require significant expenditure I can just come and watch!
03-29-2012, 02:16 AM
#611
I have read through some of the last few pages and I'm starting to wonder about running at the nats. Now keep in mind that whilst I'm not exactly new to all this, it has been 15+ years since I have run a major electric event.
My equipment consists of a Novak GTB speed control (5+ years old and no LiPo cutoff as far as I'm aware), some Venom shorty packs and a Swallow charger. Will this get me through scrutineering for 2wd mod?
I'm only coming to make up the numbers and see the best run EP but if it is going to require significant expenditure I can just come and watch!
My equipment consists of a Novak GTB speed control (5+ years old and no LiPo cutoff as far as I'm aware), some Venom shorty packs and a Swallow charger. Will this get me through scrutineering for 2wd mod?
I'm only coming to make up the numbers and see the best run EP but if it is going to require significant expenditure I can just come and watch!
Cheers
Darryn
03-29-2012, 02:17 AM
#612
there is 30 minutes and 4 pages of reading RCtech that I won't get back....
looks like the nationals will be won in tech.
make sure you are all up to speed on your rule book guys.
if any of you actually to pass tech and get to race enjoy it and good luck.
on race morning delegates should immediately vote out the insane tire quantity rule and the battery box rule. both are not worth policing. let the host club get on with running a good race and the competitors enjoy themselves and the camaraderie in the pits.
looks like the nationals will be won in tech.
make sure you are all up to speed on your rule book guys.
if any of you actually to pass tech and get to race enjoy it and good luck.
on race morning delegates should immediately vote out the insane tire quantity rule and the battery box rule. both are not worth policing. let the host club get on with running a good race and the competitors enjoy themselves and the camaraderie in the pits.
Mate - you (or many others) don't know half the drama's the club has faced just trying to do the right thing for this event.
The event is going to be awesome, no doubt of that.
Cheers
Darryn
03-29-2012, 02:40 AM
#614
Tech Master
Thread Starter
03-29-2012, 03:15 AM
#615
Tech Master
Thread Starter
Every sanctioned event seems to have one issue or rule that jumps out at people.
Batteries this time, Chute measurements & 30 day rule for Motors at the last NSW State Titles.
Control Tyres at last years Nationals.
Stock ESCs before that.
These rules are in a constant state of evolution. Some of them have been around for donkeys, and some are more recent. If we (the governing body) don't test the water with the racing fraternity from time to time, then we're not going to get them refined to where we want them. Boz summed it up best a couple of posts back. Read the rules and get on to your clubs if there is a need to address some aspects of them (before we get to a sanctioned event).
We only seem to get issues dealt with in the lead up to a major event when the S**T hits the fan over some technicality. Only then does the highlighted issue get the attention it deserves.
I'm amazed just how much attention that little wooden battery box received this week (See last 7 pages).
Hopefully we will see some attention given to "adjusting" the tolerance specs of measuring Packs sometime soon.
As you said........ common-sense here. Check the lists and we'll get on and have a great time.
Mav