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Old 11-01-2013, 09:56 AM   #3376
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Default Welcome to Toledo!

I don't know how your racing is going in other parts of the country, but here in Toledo, we've had a small band of racers enjoying 2wd pan for years. We seem to be focused more on the middle and back of the pack then the front. The idea of getting a racer up to speed seems more important then who or what can turn the fastest lap. The idea that someone can make a 2wd pan that is so much faster is some what silly. The pan car is all about the driver, the fast guys will run at the top no matter what, our focus is the success enjoyed by the lesser driver and helping him or her grow.

A racer up here was fighting to get to the end of any race powered by a strong 5-port motor. We choked that motor down a munch and that racer want more laps and completed races over night. How to help someone along is more important here in Toledo.

Years ago, I think ROAR would not let the manufacturers into the rule making as their out look is different then a simple racer. How you spend your money has nothing to do with what we're doing here in Toledo. I'm sure if you put a good car out at a good price, you'd have a winner and we all would be happy in the end.

Phil, the Thorp trans was a good idea that never really showed an advantage over the rest of the cars. I raced them, there is a reason they aren't around and it has nothing to do with a rule.

I am talking Toledo here, the rest of the world is welcome to do as they please.

LETS RACE SOME MORE!!
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Old 11-01-2013, 10:34 AM   #3377
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Default Hmm

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If I understand this correctly, you are saying that I (or any other prospective manufacturer) should invest hundreds of hours and hundreds (or thousands) of dollars to build a car that fits my interpretation of what the rules are, and then if it proves too fast, I won't be allowed to race it. That's not an option for me.

Here's a (somewhat related) hypothetical situation: A manufacturer wants to create a new car and sell it. Let's assume its design is very conservative, so there is virtually no chance it will be illegal under any given rule set. In order to sell cars, the manufacturer retains the services of the best driver available (as is normally done). The car/driver combination then utterly dominates every race entered. Will the car be declared illegal? If Josh Cyrul is the driver, then we might say the car is okay; the difference is the driver only. But if the driver is unknown, yet still light-years ahead of the other drivers, what will the decision be?

Furthermore, who will make these decisions?

I (and others) believe that it's the LACK of rules that is dragging us down.

By definition, it's not "cheating" if there are no rules to break.
I'm one of the guys in the boat you're talking about...wanting to become a manufacturer. But I haven't seen, and still don't see, a "lack" of rules. No one has actually disputed that ROAR has rules mandating bodies, tires, and so forth. There are rules governing weight, height, length, wheelbase, and so forth. Pan class always meant no suspension, front wheel drive cars must run with the 4wd's, and I could go on and on. Most of what has been proposed is already in the book in one form or another. To me, it seems like these are the issues:

1. Most of the rules governing what we're doing are lumped in with 1/8 onroad, but all the characteristics still apply. Seems maybe a few want a special page, why, I don't know. If you have a page that lists all the characteristics, with one set aside as per weight depending on which class you're running, where's the problem?

2. People taking reference to European rules/setup. Pointless. If we get numbers to the point where we compete internationally, ROAR won't dictate that, it'll be IFMAR. And any rule we come up with won't apply to them, their rules will apply to us. That might be important LATER, but it's not important NOW. And since the WRC is the top car in the class, being run over here and over there, it's a safe bet it'll be legal.

3. Engines. Right now, the rule is .21, and here and there are additions (must use INS box, etc.) Out of all the nonsensical stuff submitted, the only sticking point is engines. Various submissions from limiting as per cost, ports, carb bore, and so forth. These are valid points. They are also premature. In the first "official" modern pan club race, there were two people, myself and Lon. As I recall, we finished on the same lap, him running a modern car and me running 35 year old gear, including tires. And I'm certain neither of us checked the rules or each others car to quibble about tech.

4. There is no specific blurb listed in the book as to multi-speed. As written, the rule says single, two, or three speed permitted. (Imagine a pan with a three speed...lol.) This is the only line I see that needs changed, and I don't worry much about it at present. We all agree the majority of pan thus far reside in Toledo. Irwin shows up to run with us. If I have an issue with Lon or Irwin, I don't need to wave paper at them, I just walk over to their pits, because conversation face to face beats hashing it out via the written word endlessly. It is plainly understood by all, without exception, that we are SINGLE SPEED.

I intend to proceed like Lon says. I am against any changes to the rules as they now stand. Lon has volunteered to run tech, he shows up to most of the races, has supported pan fervently, and I do not doubt his competence or honesty in being fair minded. If anyone is outrunning the others by a large margin with questionable gear, I'm confident he can manage the problem and said offender, being an honest member of our hobby, will cheerfully comply. I hope that everyone will remember this is a hobby we do willingly, that it's supposed to be FUN, that we're more about having FUN than competition.

As for "someone running too fast." Hmm. We all know Joe T. dominated pan last year. He didn't have the fastest car, he had the cleanest driving. Consistency and skill are what got him to the top, time after time. I don't recall anyone asking him to "tone it down" because there was no unfair advantage, just good driving and proper maintenance of the car. It's not a question of him outrunning everyone, it's more a question of everyone hasn't gotten up to his level yet. I think what Lon refers to is some guy running a nine port and everyone else has a three port, things like that. I can guarantee that no one I know of will support outlawing a person just because they are successful. If Joe T. dominates next year like he did this year, it'll be because he set his car up properly and drove it well; no one will seriously suggest he should be penalized, and that same thought applies to you, me, and everyone else.
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Old 11-01-2013, 10:51 AM   #3378
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Originally Posted by hitcharide1 View Post
Pan class always meant no suspension...
Does a flexible chassis constitute a "suspension"?
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Old 11-01-2013, 11:38 AM   #3379
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Default Hmm

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Originally Posted by howardcano View Post
Does a flexible chassis constitute a "suspension"?
No, it never has in the past. On the flip side I always thought an "articulated" chassis did, and the plate the WRC uses is called a "suspension plate." However, consensus said it was ok. To my knowledge, most vintage cars had a flexible chassis, the SuperJ could be tweaked by tightening or loosening the middle forward screw in the servo tray mount. I (and others) are currently using G10 for the chassis, which has very nice flex, is extremely durable, and remarkably inexpensive. Really good stuff. Many manufacturers also made a two piece chassis, the rear being aluminum, the front being fiberglass/composite, and it had plenty of flex as well.
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Old 11-01-2013, 11:40 AM   #3380
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Does a flexible chassis constitute a "suspension"?
..No....If it does...all chassis are outlawed....unless its one thick piece of Iron.....class over...
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Old 11-01-2013, 11:44 AM   #3381
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Default Hey

Tom is working on a TC3 style build, where the engine is pretty much coupled to the diff, without benefit of intermediate gears (still uses a flywheel and bell, of course). If we can find pinion stock in order to get the right ratio, that is. Benefits....very simple, no adjustments of any sort, torque is delivered directly, less moving parts, etc. Probs....pinion gear change, better quality bearings in the diff needed, etc. But we're thinking a good intermediate ratio would outweigh that issue, and pinion gear change would only take 10 minutes or so. I don't know if this has been tried effectively anywhere else, if anyone knows of a current setup like that, please send me a link so I can see it.
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Old 11-01-2013, 11:47 AM   #3382
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Default Hmm

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Originally Posted by Taylorm View Post
..No....If it does...all chassis are outlawed....unless its one thick piece of Iron.....class over...
Hey...iron! Adds more weight so it'd slow the cars down, pretty durable, and we could give turn marshalls long sticks with magnets to recover the cars when they wreck! And I'll give you the honor of being the first to fabricate and race one.....
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Old 11-01-2013, 12:18 PM   #3383
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Originally Posted by hitcharide1 View Post
No, it never has in the past. On the flip side I always thought an "articulated" chassis did, and the plate the WRC uses is called a "suspension plate." However, consensus said it was ok. To my knowledge, most vintage cars had a flexible chassis, the SuperJ could be tweaked by tightening or loosening the middle forward screw in the servo tray mount. I (and others) are currently using G10 for the chassis, which has very nice flex, is extremely durable, and remarkably inexpensive. Really good stuff. Many manufacturers also made a two piece chassis, the rear being aluminum, the front being fiberglass/composite, and it had plenty of flex as well.
Good. Then I can proceed with my re-design, which will use chassis flex to achieve movement of the front and rear wheels relative to the engine and transmission. It will use liquid-filled dampers, since they are not prohibited by ROAR rules. I'll also allow the liquid-filled dampers to be replaced by elastomeric or friction dampers in case local rules don't permit the liquid-filled dampers. And it will have a single-ratio transmission. That should cover just about anything.
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Old 11-01-2013, 01:34 PM   #3384
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Default Really!

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Originally Posted by howardcano View Post
Good. Then I can proceed with my re-design, which will use chassis flex to achieve movement of the front and rear wheels relative to the engine and transmission. It will use liquid-filled dampers, since they are not prohibited by ROAR rules. I'll also allow the liquid-filled dampers to be replaced by elastomeric or friction dampers in case local rules don't permit the liquid-filled dampers. And it will have a single-ratio transmission. That should cover just about anything.
Liquid filled dampers?? Where will they be located, or is it too early to spill the beans? If you're using those a/la a WRC style build, then I don't see a problem, can't outlaw one and allow another. The engineer (ha) in me is wondering how durable they'll be, and if they crack or leak, what fluid in how much quantity would end up on the track. When you're ready for it, share a pic so we can see.....
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Old 11-01-2013, 01:58 PM   #3385
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Originally Posted by hitcharide1 View Post
Liquid filled dampers?? Where will they be located, or is it too early to spill the beans? If you're using those a/la a WRC style build, then I don't see a problem, can't outlaw one and allow another. The engineer (ha) in me is wondering how durable they'll be, and if they crack or leak, what fluid in how much quantity would end up on the track. When you're ready for it, share a pic so we can see.....
The location is relatively unimportant, since they can either act directly or indirectly (through pushrods, bellcranks, etc.) to damp the motion of the wheels. But I'll try to keep it as simple as possible. If you have some suggestions, I'm all ears!

The durability isn't really in question. Dampers from all of the major manufacturers seem quite durable and well-engineered these days. The only time they tend to leak is when one is damaged in a crash. (Or when I don't rebuild them for a few years!)

"Too early to spill the beans" is probably not a phrase that would apply. Yes, it's still early in the design stage, but I won't keep any secrets, and will freely share ideas and details with anyone. If things go well, I'll probably start a thread on the design, so other people can build it, too. That's what I did for the hardware on my lap timing decoder and transponders.

By the way, I forgot to mention that the front end will use a beam, and the rear will have a live axle, since this seems to be a universally accepted arrangement for a pan car, and I really don't care for all the extra weight/drag/complication of half-shafts, pivot balls, uprights, etc.
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Last edited by howardcano; 11-01-2013 at 03:36 PM.
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Old 11-01-2013, 04:46 PM   #3386
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Just the man I'm looking for...did you ever find a link for some pinion stock? Tom has a few ideas for it and I want some more options for tooth count....much appreciated if you have anything.
matt seems too find that stuff, the ebay predator strikes !!!
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Old 11-01-2013, 04:56 PM   #3387
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matt seems too find that stuff, the ebay predator strikes !!!
Yeah, but you said you were trying to get a handle on some to make your own pinions, and I'd hoped you were successful and thus I could be lazy and cheat off your success.

This must be the part about pan I like the most. 4wd is nearly all the same, 1/8th or 1/10th...people are running factory kits, and that's fine, but we seem to have the only class that encourages individual design and modelling. If only I had a c in c machine....

...and I give Matt total credit on the G10. I love working with that stuff and STILL can't believe how affordable it is. I'm almost tempted to stockpile some in case they stop offering it....anything too good to last usually doesn't.
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Last edited by hitcharide1; 11-01-2013 at 04:58 PM. Reason: forgot to add
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Old 11-01-2013, 05:02 PM   #3388
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The location is relatively unimportant, since they can either act directly or indirectly (through pushrods, bellcranks, etc.) to damp the motion of the wheels. But I'll try to keep it as simple as possible. If you have some suggestions, I'm all ears!

The durability isn't really in question. Dampers from all of the major manufacturers seem quite durable and well-engineered these days. The only time they tend to leak is when one is damaged in a crash. (Or when I don't rebuild them for a few years!)

"Too early to spill the beans" is probably not a phrase that would apply. Yes, it's still early in the design stage, but I won't keep any secrets, and will freely share ideas and details with anyone. If things go well, I'll probably start a thread on the design, so other people can build it, too. That's what I did for the hardware on my lap timing decoder and transponders.

By the way, I forgot to mention that the front end will use a beam, and the rear will have a live axle, since this seems to be a universally accepted arrangement for a pan car, and I really don't care for all the extra weight/drag/complication of half-shafts, pivot balls, uprights, etc.
at last some creative stuff, i would love the solid axle as well but thats takes us full circle back too the gear ratio thing. my builds currently in a secure loc. guarded by a 7month old belgian malinois dog !!!!!
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Old 11-01-2013, 05:31 PM   #3389
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at last some creative stuff, i would love the solid axle as well but thats takes us full circle back too the gear ratio thing. my builds currently in a secure loc. guarded by a 7month old belgian malinois dog !!!!!
There won't be any problems with the gear ratio, since I will still use a double gear reduction via a jackshaft. One could also use a belt drive to the live axle. There's plenty of ways to skin a cat.
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Old 11-01-2013, 05:34 PM   #3390
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http://www.bostongear.com/products/open/pinion.html#
http://www.pinionrod.com/pinionrod.htm
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