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Old 08-10-2009, 04:29 AM   #17146
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Originally Posted by janux View Post
Hello!

Wanted to get some info on how to improve initial turning, somehow it feels that my car is understeering in the very begining of turn.

We race somehow smooth med grip asphalt.

Haven't setup sheet with me now but as i remember have such settings:
I have WCE edition

Front
Spring: HPI pink
Oil: AE 50wt
Piston: 2hole (stock)
Camber link pos: long, 2mm shim
Camber: 2deg
Caster: 4deg
To block: 1.5
Shims under toe blocks: FF 1.0, FR 1.5
Droop: 5
Toe: 1 out
Wheelbase: F 0.7mm, R 2mm
Ackerman: 3mm
Front drive: diff
Swaybar: 1.4mm

Rear:
Spring: HPI silver
Oil: AE 50wt
Piston: 2hole (stock)
Camber link pos: long, 2mm shim
Camber: 2deg
Rear hub: 0 deg
To block: 2.5
Shims under toe blocks: RF 2.0, RR 2.0
Droop: 5
Wheelbase: F 0.7mm, R 2mm
Read drive: diff
Swaybar: no
Hi Janux,

You could try running a little less droop on the front, I usually run 5.5 front and 5 rear.

Have you tried 3 hole 1.1mm pistons? I always run them as I find they make the car more reactive.
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Old 08-10-2009, 04:40 AM   #17147
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janux,

also your anti dive at the front
Quote:
Shims under toe blocks: FF 1.0, FR 1.5
is keeping weight from transferring forward giving you less turn in.
did you try running 1.5mm under all toe-blocks?
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Old 08-10-2009, 04:41 AM   #17148
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Will try to play with droop.

Haven't tried 3 hole pistons, but seems that for last asphalt races and also for upcoming carpet wars, i'll order them.

to Tom:
next week is some practice - so will play also with shims also
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Old 08-10-2009, 09:06 AM   #17149
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Originally Posted by Phil C View Post
Hi Luis,

...

I was very impressed with the Cyclone the first time I ran it. It had a lot more natural steering than the Xray, and after dialling in some rear traction, I was immediately on the pace.

...
Hi Phil,

For my education, what changes did you make to achieve the "dialling in some rear traction".

Thanks in advance (from another Phill C)
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Old 08-10-2009, 09:56 AM   #17150
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Hi Cosmo,

For me the rear end felt loose coming out of corners, so first I stood up the rear shock from position 4 to position 5. This helped a lot, but I still needed a little more so I tried a Jadd racing 3.5 degree rear toe block which really planted the rear end.

To help the car generate more traction (outdoor asphalt), I also cut the middle of the rear deck so its 2 piece and cut a line down the centre of the TC spec topdeck so that its split up untill the steering post mount. This made the car feel very similar, flex wise, to the 1 piece topdeck the HPI UK team are running at the moment.

Hope this helps,

Phil.
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Last edited by Phil C; 08-12-2009 at 05:29 PM.
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Old 08-10-2009, 10:05 AM   #17151
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anyone know how to remove POM's? need to perform bearing maintenance but unfortunately i cannot remove the retaining rings from the outdrives.
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Old 08-10-2009, 10:38 AM   #17152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil C View Post
Hi Cosmo,

For me the rear end felt loose coming out of corners, so first I stood up the rear shock from position 4 to position 5. This helped a lot, but I still needed a little more so I tried a Jadd racing 3.5 degree rear toe block which really planted the rear end.

To help the car generate more traction (outdoor asphalt), I also cut the middle of the rear deck so its 2 piece and cut a line down the centre of the TC spec topdeck so that its split up untill the steering post mount. This made the car feel very similar, flex wise, to the prototype 1 piece topdeck we are running at the moment.

Hope this helps,

Phil.
Very interesting. As my main problem with the kit setup was a rear loose end coming out of corners (and attempting to overtake the front end). I'm still trying different variations on the Hara RROC setup (on a lo-med grip outdoor asphalt track).

Coincidently, going from 4 to 5 could apply to the shock tower or arm position (both make the shock more upright) - which one did you mean ?? If its the lower arm then there is less leverage, more rear roll, and more rear grip (makes sense). If its the tower, then the shock becomes less progressive and a bit "harder" (dont see how this would give more rear grip, therefore makes less sense to me), OR there is a completely different explanation.

Can you please order the changes from most, to least, sensitive ?? I dont have a feel for which changes have the most effect.
Or is it pretty much in the order that you described.
That is, Rear shock position, Rear pivot block angle, Cut middle deck, Cut top deck

I have been playing with the cut middle deck, but have not heard about the cut top deck change before - interesting. There does not seem much to cut on the top deck, basically the small section centered on the belt tensioner post. If so, what do you do with the belt tensioner post (or can it sit over the "slit") ??

Greatly appreciate your thoughts
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Old 08-10-2009, 10:44 AM   #17153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigz View Post
anyone know how to remove POM's? need to perform bearing maintenance but unfortunately i cannot remove the retaining rings from the outdrives.
Pliers with a little bit of pressure on the outdrive (compresses them just a fraction) ) and you can flick off the rings with your finger nail. Just did it about 2 hours ago on a rebuild.
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Old 08-10-2009, 05:17 PM   #17154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmo1974 View Post
Very interesting. As my main problem with the kit setup was a rear loose end coming out of corners (and attempting to overtake the front end). I'm still trying different variations on the Hara RROC setup (on a lo-med grip outdoor asphalt track).

Coincidently, going from 4 to 5 could apply to the shock tower or arm position (both make the shock more upright) - which one did you mean ?? If its the lower arm then there is less leverage, more rear roll, and more rear grip (makes sense). If its the tower, then the shock becomes less progressive and a bit "harder" (dont see how this would give more rear grip, therefore makes less sense to me), OR there is a completely different explanation.

Can you please order the changes from most, to least, sensitive ?? I dont have a feel for which changes have the most effect.
Or is it pretty much in the order that you described.
That is, Rear shock position, Rear pivot block angle, Cut middle deck, Cut top deck

I have been playing with the cut middle deck, but have not heard about the cut top deck change before - interesting. There does not seem much to cut on the top deck, basically the small section centered on the belt tensioner post. If so, what do you do with the belt tensioner post (or can it sit over the "slit") ??

Greatly appreciate your thoughts

Hi Cosmo,

Sorry about my vagueness

I was reffering to position 5 on the rear shocktower, Im not sure I can totally explain why this works but it definately gave more rear traction on corner exit. Myself and one of my team mates both made the change and agreed on the outcome (both running 5 cell mod). I almost always run position 3 on the rear wishbones by the way .

As for the order of changes, I felt the rear shock position made the biggest difference as it worked specificly on improving the rear traction corner exit in my opinion. Next up was the toe block, this gave a little more rear end stability all round.

As for the flex, I ran the car standard to begin with, but I really felt it was too stiff all round. I cut the rear deck and it did improve rear traction, but took away some steering. I then cut the front deck which brought back the steering.

On my std car I have cut a line down the centre of the TC spec topdeck from the very back all the way to the cutout behind the steering post mount. This worked for me as I dont run a belt tensioner, I have my belts relatively tight for modified anyway so theres really no need. If your running a spec class and want to run the belts looser then Im not entirely sure how you would do it. I seem to recall seeing a friend having cut it as I have, but he drilled a new hole for the tensioner off to the right hand side and used extra spacers to move the bearings back above the belt. If I've not described this well enough I can post some pictures for you tomorrow, just let me know.

If you can try the topdeck and middle deck as I've described, the flex is very similar to the 1 piece topdeck the HPI UK team are running now. (similar flex to how all the teams have their cars, 416, 009 etc)

Oh and one more thing that could help with rear traction is the rear diff. It needs to feel smooth but have no slip whatsoever. I rebuild mine every 2 runs at a serious meeting so its perfect, but once every 5-6 runs tends to be ok at club meetings. There is also a little adjustment past the point at which it has stopped slipping. I find a diff with a looser action tends to make the car want to carry on turning when you exit a corner and a diff with a tighter action tends to make the car drive smoother out of the corners (more rear traction).

Hope this helps, let me know if you want me to elaborate on anything.

Cheers,

Phil.
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Last edited by Phil C; 08-12-2009 at 05:30 PM.
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Old 08-10-2009, 07:46 PM   #17155
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Hey guys, im having trouble setting my rear toe-in. I realize that this is a static block but; even with the 3.0 deg block, I am getting 3.25 degree on my left wheel and 2.5 degrees on my right wheel. Both my camber angles are at 1.5 degrees, the shims below the blocks are all the same at 2mm. The shims on the hinge pins are correct, a 2mm one and a 0.75mm one.

I have loosen then tighten the degree blocks at different directions and have found different combinations but never the right one.

Any suggestions?
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Old 08-10-2009, 07:59 PM   #17156
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Originally Posted by Riketsu View Post
Hey guys, im having trouble setting my rear toe-in. I realize that this is a static block but; even with the 3.0 deg block, I am getting 3.25 degree on my left wheel and 2.5 degrees on my right wheel. Both my camber angles are at 1.5 degrees, the shims below the blocks are all the same at 2mm. The shims on the hinge pins are correct, a 2mm one and a 0.75mm one.

I have loosen then tighten the degree blocks at different directions and have found different combinations but never the right one.

Any suggestions?
This is a known issue. Try the new alum rear hubs, I think that should resolve the problem.
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Old 08-10-2009, 09:22 PM   #17157
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This is a known issue. Try the new alum rear hubs, I think that should resolve the problem.
You Mean the C hubs or the uprights themselves?
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Old 08-10-2009, 09:35 PM   #17158
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You Mean the C hubs or the uprights themselves?
The rear hubs
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Old 08-10-2009, 10:00 PM   #17159
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Phil,

(1) Thanks, excellent feedback.
I can relate 100% to the rear end issue when exiting a corner.

(2) I'm getting things a lot better than the kit setup but have not had much club track time since I purchased my TC (will make up for this when the new club opens around the corner from my place).

(3) Yes, my diff has been loose, so your diff comment is very relevant (and might explain a lot). I check my rear diff tension by holding both the rear wheels and trying to turn the centre pulley with my thumb. Just to confirm, this needs NO slip whatsoever. Also, I have just installed ceramic diff balls (not had the chance to run yet).

(4) Some photos would be greatly appreciated
I should be able to mount the belt tensioner somewhere else (if needed).

(5) I have two TC cars, so I can try cutting stuff, and still have an original as well.

(6) If you could post your setup that would be great I analyse them so I get a better understanding of what works under certain conditions (eg: lo, med, hi, & carpet tracks)

Thanks again


Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil C View Post
Hi Cosmo,

Sorry about my vagueness

I was reffering to position 5 on the rear shocktower, Im not sure I can totally explain why this works but it definately gave more rear traction on corner exit. Myself and one of my team mates both made the change and agreed on the outcome (both running 5 cell mod). I almost always run position 3 on the rear wishbones by the way .

As for the order of changes, I felt the rear shock position made the biggest difference as it worked specificly on improving the rear traction corner exit in my opinion. Next up was the toe block, this gave a little more rear end stability all round.

As for the flex, I ran the car standard to begin with, but I really felt it was too stiff all round. I cut the rear deck and it did improve rear traction, but took away some steering. I then cut the front deck which brought back the steering.

On my std car I have cut a line down the centre of the TC spec topdeck from the very back all the way to the cutout behind the steering post mount. This worked for me as I dont run a belt tensioner, I have my belts relatively tight for modified anyway so theres really no need. If your running a spec class and want to run the belts looser then Im not entirely sure how you would do it. I seem to recall seeing a friend having cut it as I have, but he drilled a new hole for the tensioner off to the right hand side and used extra spacers to move the bearings back above the belt. If I've not described this well enough I can post some pictures for you tomorrow, just let me know.

If you can try the topdeck and middle deck as I've described, the flex is very similar to the prototype 1 piece topdeck we are running now. (similar flex to how all the teams have their cars, 416, 009 etc)

Oh and one more thing that could help with rear traction is the rear diff. It needs to feel smooth but have no slip whatsoever. I rebuild mine every 2 runs at a serious meeting so its perfect, but once every 5-6 runs tends to be ok at club meetings. There is also a little adjustment past the point at which it has stopped slipping. I find a diff with a looser action tends to make the car want to carry on turning when you exit a corner and a diff with a tighter action tends to make the car drive smoother out of the corners (more rear traction).

Hope this helps, let me know if you want me to elaborate on anything.

Cheers,

Phil.
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Old 08-10-2009, 11:01 PM   #17160
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Another question. What make wheel disks your using?
I had a vtec and speed mind ones, but seems that they don't last longer than one meeting(racing super stock, and i don't hit the bars that much )
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