SANDBAGGING AT BIG RACES!!!!!!!!!!!!
11-10-2009, 07:26 AM
#76
Tech Apprentice
Great didn't read the last page and the Fuel guy comes up with a much better written idea. 
11-10-2009, 07:37 AM
#77
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That is not exactly correct. They are being paid to promote a product. Getting race results can be a big part of that... but so can being helpful to other racers, being personable and friendly, and talking up the product.
I see that differently. I'm playing with a toy car. If I get put in a race with Mike Battaile, Tex, Jason Branham, Hunter Kinsey (it can happen on the club race level anyway) I'm going to go have fun and try not to disrupt their race too badly. I'm not going to win... or place reasonbly... but I'm going to enjoy it just the same.
If you are a sportsman driver and are that stressed out about running in the same race with the "big boys," maybe you should evaluate how you look at the hobby.
I don't run the RC Pro state series races because they don't have a sportsman (a.k.a. intermediate) truggy class- not because I care about winning, but because I don't want to mess up the race for the fast guys. (OK, I did run the local one we had... but I won't travel for it...) I'm getting better at holding a line, but I still mess up way too much, and when I do I'm as likely to take someone else out as simply hold myself up.
Do I care that I'm getting beaten by 53,000 laps by the fast guys? Nope. I DO care if I ruin their day though.
I TRY to move over... take a corner a little wide and let them by, etc... but sometimes I end up making things worse. (On the other hand, for the guys who I'm close to in speed... I'm going to race you hard for every inch of the track.)
Look... we're all playing with toy cars. It IS a competition... but some folks take things like this way too seriously. You don't like the sandbaggers? Get faster so you can beat them.
I'll tease my friends about being sandbaggers... but that's all just in fun. I couldn't care less if they run pro or novice.
You should run pro.This is a huge problem in Florida.In one of our states series a guy got second in pro buggy last year and is running intermediate this year.Some of the fastest pros from our local tracks run intermediate at big events......If your lap times would have put you in the B main in the pro class you should be running pro.Quit sandbagging!!!! Intermediate or novice is for the new guys that haven't got it down yet.If you have been racing for more than a year and a half in intermediate it is time to step up. Sponsored or not.All I can say to you intermediate guys that are tired of this is HACK them everytime they line up.
If you are a sportsman driver and are that stressed out about running in the same race with the "big boys," maybe you should evaluate how you look at the hobby.
I don't run the RC Pro state series races because they don't have a sportsman (a.k.a. intermediate) truggy class- not because I care about winning, but because I don't want to mess up the race for the fast guys. (OK, I did run the local one we had... but I won't travel for it...) I'm getting better at holding a line, but I still mess up way too much, and when I do I'm as likely to take someone else out as simply hold myself up.
Do I care that I'm getting beaten by 53,000 laps by the fast guys? Nope. I DO care if I ruin their day though.
I TRY to move over... take a corner a little wide and let them by, etc... but sometimes I end up making things worse. (On the other hand, for the guys who I'm close to in speed... I'm going to race you hard for every inch of the track.)
Look... we're all playing with toy cars. It IS a competition... but some folks take things like this way too seriously. You don't like the sandbaggers? Get faster so you can beat them.
I'll tease my friends about being sandbaggers... but that's all just in fun. I couldn't care less if they run pro or novice.
11-10-2009, 07:44 AM
#78
Again, sponsorships have NOTHING to do with skill level or sandbagging. You are mixing two entirely different animals.
So if a guy gets recognized at the track for being extremely helpful and friendly, a manufacturer throws him a bone, he is now expected to run against the pros?
Manufacturers are not looking for only pro level drivers. They want racers of all levels to show what thier products can do in the hands of the average joe. Lutz, Drake or Truhe will make any car look good, but what can a human do with it?
Lastly, B-team sponsored drivers are not paid anything, race fees are not paid for, parts are not free, they receive a discount on product. Thats all. Huge differences in levels of sponsorship.
So if a guy gets recognized at the track for being extremely helpful and friendly, a manufacturer throws him a bone, he is now expected to run against the pros?
Manufacturers are not looking for only pro level drivers. They want racers of all levels to show what thier products can do in the hands of the average joe. Lutz, Drake or Truhe will make any car look good, but what can a human do with it?
Lastly, B-team sponsored drivers are not paid anything, race fees are not paid for, parts are not free, they receive a discount on product. Thats all. Huge differences in levels of sponsorship.
11-10-2009, 07:53 AM
#79
You are never going to find any race director who is willing to take hours out of his day to verify racers classes and place them accordingly..I dont know where any of you race, but when we have big races here in Arizona, the RD's are looking to move things along as fast as possible and not have the races be 15 hour days. Couple that with the fact that none of them Get paid very much money and I just dont see them reading through 250+ racers on a website and ranking them, but if everyone had a card that they could whip out for every race which has a pre-determined class on it, that would help. Then you have the problem of who controls that. What stops someone from getting a Sportsman rating and just keeping that rating for 3 years even though he has greatly improved and he is just as fast as the pro guys now. It all has to come together and be a perfect science with a team of managers who constantly monitor race results all over the world to see who needs to have there class rating changed. This all takes a ton of money, time, effort and people and dont expect it to be happening any time soon
11-10-2009, 08:23 AM
#80
I like this !!
This is a tough one and it all looks like good input.
My take is it's a two level problem.
I like letting the Directors and Promoters do their job. It is their job to manage and promote our hobby of racing toy cars. People need to be moved accordingly based on skill. I think a simple website will use AMB times to help the national level guys know where you stand in your region. The infrastructure is already there. This will help get to a national ranking system. I like the card or "transponder" registration idea. If you are not in the system then you are eligible to be placed by the director.
Novice - Directors should shuffle people out of Novice on a regular basis. Requirement = 1 year in the ranking system. This allows new racers to be circulated in regularly. No sponsorships should be mentioned by the race directing staff for Novice races. Sponsorships should not be recognized even though they could be present.
Intermediate / Sportsman - If you are in the bottom 70% of racing in your region or you have been racing for more than 1 year in the system, you should be eligible for this class. Sponsorships should not be recognized here either. You should not have to listen to a 5 page list of sponsors for Sportsman drivers that have been driving for years. This is where the race directors come in. I'm not saying the Racers can't be sponsored. Racers need to shuffled out of this class on a regular basis to make room for Novice drivers moving up.
Open / Expert - This is where the drivers should start to shine. Sponsorships should become apparent and announced by the Directors. These drivers should be in the top 30% in their respective regions.
the level of sponsorship should not matter. Drivers can be made to run Expert / Open from the lower division. At big events they can even be made to run with the pros. They are good enough to know what they are doing but they are just not as fast.
Pro - No driver should be made to run this class without all of the credentials. Top 5% of the Expert class Nationally and full sponsorship come into play here. If both are not present then the driver should not be made to run Pro but it should be left as an option to them if they do want to move up. It is a different ball game competing against factory teams and equipment. Once a driver commits to Pro, his ranking needs to stay that way for at least a certain amount of time.
At big races to promote The "pro/am" theory and to allow guys to run together, Run the Pros and Experts together in qualifying. If you have 6 heats then resort after every round by seeding TQ in heat 1, 2nd in heat 2 and so on down the line through the Expert drivers. This way they all get to run together and you can see the the drivers gage themselves against faster competition. You do not get to run with the big boys if you are in classes lower than Expert. The mains will still be sorted Pro and Expert.
Good stuff and would like to hear comments.
TEX
My take is it's a two level problem.
I like letting the Directors and Promoters do their job. It is their job to manage and promote our hobby of racing toy cars. People need to be moved accordingly based on skill. I think a simple website will use AMB times to help the national level guys know where you stand in your region. The infrastructure is already there. This will help get to a national ranking system. I like the card or "transponder" registration idea. If you are not in the system then you are eligible to be placed by the director.
Novice - Directors should shuffle people out of Novice on a regular basis. Requirement = 1 year in the ranking system. This allows new racers to be circulated in regularly. No sponsorships should be mentioned by the race directing staff for Novice races. Sponsorships should not be recognized even though they could be present.
Intermediate / Sportsman - If you are in the bottom 70% of racing in your region or you have been racing for more than 1 year in the system, you should be eligible for this class. Sponsorships should not be recognized here either. You should not have to listen to a 5 page list of sponsors for Sportsman drivers that have been driving for years. This is where the race directors come in. I'm not saying the Racers can't be sponsored. Racers need to shuffled out of this class on a regular basis to make room for Novice drivers moving up.
Open / Expert - This is where the drivers should start to shine. Sponsorships should become apparent and announced by the Directors. These drivers should be in the top 30% in their respective regions.
the level of sponsorship should not matter. Drivers can be made to run Expert / Open from the lower division. At big events they can even be made to run with the pros. They are good enough to know what they are doing but they are just not as fast.
Pro - No driver should be made to run this class without all of the credentials. Top 5% of the Expert class Nationally and full sponsorship come into play here. If both are not present then the driver should not be made to run Pro but it should be left as an option to them if they do want to move up. It is a different ball game competing against factory teams and equipment. Once a driver commits to Pro, his ranking needs to stay that way for at least a certain amount of time.
At big races to promote The "pro/am" theory and to allow guys to run together, Run the Pros and Experts together in qualifying. If you have 6 heats then resort after every round by seeding TQ in heat 1, 2nd in heat 2 and so on down the line through the Expert drivers. This way they all get to run together and you can see the the drivers gage themselves against faster competition. You do not get to run with the big boys if you are in classes lower than Expert. The mains will still be sorted Pro and Expert.
Good stuff and would like to hear comments.
TEX
11-10-2009, 08:52 AM
#81
I would say $50 a year is reasonable... The problem is that every track needs to participate. Right now, you have some ROAR tracks, independents, etc so no consistency.
When I raced BMX, every track was either ABA or NBL associated. Therefore, it was easy to keep track of who was an expert level rider, so no sandbagging. You got a card with your level and that was that...
IIRC, you could only race novice one year and then they bumped you to expert. The classes were beginner, novice, expert and pro (probably only like 50-75 true pros). After you won your first beginnner race, you got bumped to novice and coudl stay there for a year. Then you got bumped to expert which was a big wake up call since expert consisted of EVERYBODY from guys who weren't all that great to the really fast locals to the nationally ranked factory guys with full rides. It all got sorted out in the qualifying motos with the fastest guys quickly rising to the top and the slow guys getting eliminated.
What was funny though was that we had sandbagging novices who would race the full year going to nationals to get a national title in the novice class. We used to call them Pro Novices. Some had sponsorships and everything. They really were fast enough to be a mediocre expert. They could only get away with it for a year though before they automatically got bumped to expert and then quickly got their asses handed to them.
This worked well because the really fast non sponsored guys would have a good day and wow everyone by beating a few factory guys and they would get their moment to shine and ultimately pick up sponsors.
When I raced BMX, every track was either ABA or NBL associated. Therefore, it was easy to keep track of who was an expert level rider, so no sandbagging. You got a card with your level and that was that...
IIRC, you could only race novice one year and then they bumped you to expert. The classes were beginner, novice, expert and pro (probably only like 50-75 true pros). After you won your first beginnner race, you got bumped to novice and coudl stay there for a year. Then you got bumped to expert which was a big wake up call since expert consisted of EVERYBODY from guys who weren't all that great to the really fast locals to the nationally ranked factory guys with full rides. It all got sorted out in the qualifying motos with the fastest guys quickly rising to the top and the slow guys getting eliminated.
What was funny though was that we had sandbagging novices who would race the full year going to nationals to get a national title in the novice class. We used to call them Pro Novices. Some had sponsorships and everything. They really were fast enough to be a mediocre expert. They could only get away with it for a year though before they automatically got bumped to expert and then quickly got their asses handed to them.
This worked well because the really fast non sponsored guys would have a good day and wow everyone by beating a few factory guys and they would get their moment to shine and ultimately pick up sponsors.
11-10-2009, 09:09 AM
#82
A B C D E sponsorships Oh My!!!!
Again, sponsorships have NOTHING to do with skill level or sandbagging. You are mixing two entirely different animals.
So if a guy gets recognized at the track for being extremely helpful and friendly, a manufacturer throws him a bone, he is now expected to run against the pros?
Manufacturers are not looking for only pro level drivers. They want racers of all levels to show what thier products can do in the hands of the average joe. Lutz, Drake or Truhe will make any car look good, but what can a human do with it?
Lastly, B-team sponsored drivers are not paid anything, race fees are not paid for, parts are not free, they receive a discount on product. Thats all. Huge differences in levels of sponsorship.
So if a guy gets recognized at the track for being extremely helpful and friendly, a manufacturer throws him a bone, he is now expected to run against the pros?
Manufacturers are not looking for only pro level drivers. They want racers of all levels to show what thier products can do in the hands of the average joe. Lutz, Drake or Truhe will make any car look good, but what can a human do with it?
Lastly, B-team sponsored drivers are not paid anything, race fees are not paid for, parts are not free, they receive a discount on product. Thats all. Huge differences in levels of sponsorship.
11-10-2009, 09:15 AM
#83
Tech Master
Sickboy hit the nail on the head with a sledge hammer
I think people have the complete wrong idea of why racers are sponsored.
I think people have the complete wrong idea of why racers are sponsored.
11-10-2009, 09:32 AM
#84
These are not Toy Cars. This is a real Motorsport. 
Much like Motocross, local pro's often are not good enough to run pro at a national race. The tiers of ability often don't readily transfer.
Much like Motocross, local pro's often are not good enough to run pro at a national race. The tiers of ability often don't readily transfer.
11-10-2009, 09:39 AM
#85
Tech Elite
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Ummmmm... ok...
"It's not a sport if you can't get hurt."
Racing RC cars is not a sport. Marshalling is!
True, to a certain extent... unless you live here... or in some parts of California. lol
And deny it all you want... the ARE toy cars.
"It's not a sport if you can't get hurt."
Racing RC cars is not a sport. Marshalling is!
Much like Motocross, local pro's often are not good enough to run pro at a national race. The tiers of ability often don't readily transfer.
And deny it all you want... the ARE toy cars.
11-10-2009, 09:43 AM
#86
Tech Master
Some people take things to seriously.
Lets all just race, hang out, and HAVE FUN!!!!
Lets all just race, hang out, and HAVE FUN!!!!
11-10-2009, 09:49 AM
#88
Here you go......
To get a data base going, I think we should use a service like J-Lap that is already in place. It is just software. Much like the BCS. You could even have SOS (Strength of Schedule) for races attended. Let's face it, there is no place on Earth like So Cal in depth of quality drivers. Club races are like National events everywhere else.
Anyways, $25 a year could work for setting up or registering a racer in the system. It could be very easy to get the card system like other sports use. If you do not have a card then you must pay for one to run a classed event??? Just like having a transponder or something like that. It really would not be that hard. Software could even differentiate or highlight a racer for the director if he is entered in the wrong class. It should then be the race director's option to override it if someone bought another racer's transponder or something to that effect. The card is only checked if there is a flagged problem.
I don't look at it as creating more work for the RDs. I look at it as supplementing the tools they already have to run an effective race program.
If they are not filling out and announcing sponsor sheets for every driver in Novice and Intermediate that would save a ton of time alone.
TEX
Anyways, $25 a year could work for setting up or registering a racer in the system. It could be very easy to get the card system like other sports use. If you do not have a card then you must pay for one to run a classed event??? Just like having a transponder or something like that. It really would not be that hard. Software could even differentiate or highlight a racer for the director if he is entered in the wrong class. It should then be the race director's option to override it if someone bought another racer's transponder or something to that effect. The card is only checked if there is a flagged problem.
I don't look at it as creating more work for the RDs. I look at it as supplementing the tools they already have to run an effective race program.
If they are not filling out and announcing sponsor sheets for every driver in Novice and Intermediate that would save a ton of time alone.
TEX
11-10-2009, 09:51 AM
#89
To get a data base going, I think we should use a service like J-Lap that is already in place. It is just software. Much like the BCS. You could even have SOS (Strength of Schedule) for races attended. Let's face it, there is no place on Earth like So Cal in depth of quality drivers. Club races are like National events everywhere else.
Anyways, $25 a year could work for setting up or registering a racer in the system. It could be very easy to get the card system like other sports use. If you do not have a card then you must pay for one to run a classed event??? Just like having a transponder or something like that. It really would not be that hard. Software could even differentiate or highlight a racer for the director if he is entered in the wrong class. It should then be the race director's option to override it if someone bought another racer's transponder or something to that effect. The card is only checked if there is a flagged problem.
I don't look at it as creating more work for the RDs. I look at it as supplementing the tools they already have to run an effective race program.
If they are not filling out and announcing sponsor sheets for every driver in Novice and Intermediate that would save a ton of time alone.
TEX
Anyways, $25 a year could work for setting up or registering a racer in the system. It could be very easy to get the card system like other sports use. If you do not have a card then you must pay for one to run a classed event??? Just like having a transponder or something like that. It really would not be that hard. Software could even differentiate or highlight a racer for the director if he is entered in the wrong class. It should then be the race director's option to override it if someone bought another racer's transponder or something to that effect. The card is only checked if there is a flagged problem.
I don't look at it as creating more work for the RDs. I look at it as supplementing the tools they already have to run an effective race program.
If they are not filling out and announcing sponsor sheets for every driver in Novice and Intermediate that would save a ton of time alone.
TEX
11-10-2009, 10:03 AM
#90
As a bmx racer I was fast locally and even regionally, but rarely made the main in the expert class at big national races. When I did make the main, it was rare to get a top 3 finish. However, if I raced "novice" at a national race, I would have absolutely destroyed that class and would have been sandbagging at its finest.
If you are fast locally, but not nationally, it just means you need to step your game up and rise to the occassion, not sandbag because you are the bottom half of the really fast guys imho.