1LikesU.S. Vintage Trans-Am Racing
11-19-2008, 01:10 PM
#3301
Lets think like engineers.
From Wikipedia:
If motors can't exceed a certain wattage, shouldn't they perform relatively the same if the basic principles of construction remain the same?
From Wikipedia:
Direct current
In direct current resistive circuits, instantaneous electrical power is calculated using Joule's Law, which is named after the British physicist James Joule, who first showed that heat and mechanical energy were interchangeable.
P = VI
where
P is the power (watt or W)
V is the potential difference (volt or V)
I is the current (ampere or A)
For example:
2A * 12V = 24W
Joule's law can be combined with Ohm's law to produce two more equations:
P = I^2 R = V^2/R
where R is the resistance (Ohm or Ω).
For example:
(2A)^2 * 6Ohms = 24W
and
(12V)^2 / 6Ohms = 24W
In direct current resistive circuits, instantaneous electrical power is calculated using Joule's Law, which is named after the British physicist James Joule, who first showed that heat and mechanical energy were interchangeable.
P = VI
where
P is the power (watt or W)
V is the potential difference (volt or V)
I is the current (ampere or A)
For example:
2A * 12V = 24W
Joule's law can be combined with Ohm's law to produce two more equations:
P = I^2 R = V^2/R
where R is the resistance (Ohm or Ω).
For example:
(2A)^2 * 6Ohms = 24W
and
(12V)^2 / 6Ohms = 24W
If motors can't exceed a certain wattage, shouldn't they perform relatively the same if the basic principles of construction remain the same?
11-19-2008, 01:21 PM
#3302
The ROAR BL construction rules for the limited classes (10.5, 13.5, 17.5, and 21.5) are tailored to do exactly that liljohn.
When stator build, wire diameters, rotor diameters and etc. are layed out as they are in the ROAR rules - you get a basic generic motor that is capable of "X" watts, or in practice - a certain track speed depending on the vehicle.
All these motors are hand wound individual works of art. The end result of whats left as "designing wiggle room" in the rules mostly comes down to powerband application, rough efficiency, and how the motor "feels". There is about the same deviation in perfromance across several runs of the same motor, than there is across the motor brands.
These build rules are STRICT because the users demand ROAR not to promote a "motor of the week" situation, and would rather have a stable power level where all brands have a reasonable chance of competing fairly.
ROAR cannot promote single manufacturer classes/racing, but what we CAN do is build a set of rules where everyone can build a competitive motor with a little motor understanding and some R&D to tweak whats available to tweak.
When stator build, wire diameters, rotor diameters and etc. are layed out as they are in the ROAR rules - you get a basic generic motor that is capable of "X" watts, or in practice - a certain track speed depending on the vehicle.
All these motors are hand wound individual works of art. The end result of whats left as "designing wiggle room" in the rules mostly comes down to powerband application, rough efficiency, and how the motor "feels". There is about the same deviation in perfromance across several runs of the same motor, than there is across the motor brands.
These build rules are STRICT because the users demand ROAR not to promote a "motor of the week" situation, and would rather have a stable power level where all brands have a reasonable chance of competing fairly.
ROAR cannot promote single manufacturer classes/racing, but what we CAN do is build a set of rules where everyone can build a competitive motor with a little motor understanding and some R&D to tweak whats available to tweak.
11-19-2008, 01:34 PM
#3303
For those that agree cool, for those that dont agree, cool. So here goes:
Sorry fellas , but I gotta keep it real...After reading the last 3 or 4 pages, reading about timing, tinkering, changing this, breaking in that, gearing this, this esc, that esc, this chassis, that chassis, etc...etc... I would go as far as to say most of you have already turned the Vintage TA class in to something it was not intended to be...Highly Competitive "Tour Car Racing"....Just highly competitive Tour Car racing on a Slower pace with muscle car tribute body shells. The thing is, most of you don't even realize it, or will admit to it...BUT PLEASE/PLEASE, before some of you go pulling out your arm pit hairs. Before some of you grab an uzi and climb the nearest clock tower... Just go over the last say 4 to 5 pages of this thread. Hell, even futher back than that. I mean REALLY read posts, and tell me if you don't see the same. Those who tell me you don't, you're blind to the obvious and in pure denial. Now,,,DON'T get this twisted for its cool with me. I love the competitive part of RC racing. I love learning how to be faster than my rc racing competitor. In the pits I'm as fun as they come, on the track Its all business. I've raced that way for years, and that's not going to change. Maybe thats why I see what I see here. Now, I distinctly remember reading a well put together write up that stated if you are a competitive racer, if you tinker with, time, over-tune, buy the latest quality go fast equipment. If do this and do that to your car, than Vintage TA is NOT you. Any body remember reading the same? Well hell, if that's the case, from what I've read over the past pages, the Vintage TA class isn't for 90% of the people on this board. If I'm a NEW racer looking for that cheap dollar friendly class in which all I have to do is develop driving skills to do well, right now I wouldn't see Vintage TA as that class. I'd see it as yet another highly competitive racing class in which MOST are trying to be faster than MOST. I'd see another class in which YES, in order to be among the fast runners, you have to spend Bigger Bucks for better equipment! Driving skills will only get you half way there. This stuff isn't as cheap as its being stated to be. I don't see racers with budget radios beating racers with high end radios...I don't see racers with budget 27t stockers and affordable cells beating racers with 21.5 BLs and big dollar lipos. In MOST cases I don't see racers with old out-dated tubbed chassis beating racers with the latest race engineered high-end chassis. Hey, from what I've observed, most everyone here with the exception Doug himself sounds like a Highly competitive racer trying to find their "fun" side. Its like a football player going to ballet classes to become more cultured. Its just not you!... So I don't know, maybe I'm missing something here, you tell me, with the exception of the body shells and slower go power speeds, is there really any difference between Vintage TA and competitive tour car racing?
Again Hey, I love it, because I am "competitive." I see the same competitive mentality within both classes, which in all aspects makes them the same. But again, what was this class originally intended for?
(ANYbody see the message here?)
Sorry fellas , but I gotta keep it real...After reading the last 3 or 4 pages, reading about timing, tinkering, changing this, breaking in that, gearing this, this esc, that esc, this chassis, that chassis, etc...etc... I would go as far as to say most of you have already turned the Vintage TA class in to something it was not intended to be...Highly Competitive "Tour Car Racing"....Just highly competitive Tour Car racing on a Slower pace with muscle car tribute body shells. The thing is, most of you don't even realize it, or will admit to it...BUT PLEASE/PLEASE, before some of you go pulling out your arm pit hairs. Before some of you grab an uzi and climb the nearest clock tower... Just go over the last say 4 to 5 pages of this thread. Hell, even futher back than that. I mean REALLY read posts, and tell me if you don't see the same. Those who tell me you don't, you're blind to the obvious and in pure denial. Now,,,DON'T get this twisted for its cool with me. I love the competitive part of RC racing. I love learning how to be faster than my rc racing competitor. In the pits I'm as fun as they come, on the track Its all business. I've raced that way for years, and that's not going to change. Maybe thats why I see what I see here. Now, I distinctly remember reading a well put together write up that stated if you are a competitive racer, if you tinker with, time, over-tune, buy the latest quality go fast equipment. If do this and do that to your car, than Vintage TA is NOT you. Any body remember reading the same? Well hell, if that's the case, from what I've read over the past pages, the Vintage TA class isn't for 90% of the people on this board. If I'm a NEW racer looking for that cheap dollar friendly class in which all I have to do is develop driving skills to do well, right now I wouldn't see Vintage TA as that class. I'd see it as yet another highly competitive racing class in which MOST are trying to be faster than MOST. I'd see another class in which YES, in order to be among the fast runners, you have to spend Bigger Bucks for better equipment! Driving skills will only get you half way there. This stuff isn't as cheap as its being stated to be. I don't see racers with budget radios beating racers with high end radios...I don't see racers with budget 27t stockers and affordable cells beating racers with 21.5 BLs and big dollar lipos. In MOST cases I don't see racers with old out-dated tubbed chassis beating racers with the latest race engineered high-end chassis. Hey, from what I've observed, most everyone here with the exception Doug himself sounds like a Highly competitive racer trying to find their "fun" side. Its like a football player going to ballet classes to become more cultured. Its just not you!... So I don't know, maybe I'm missing something here, you tell me, with the exception of the body shells and slower go power speeds, is there really any difference between Vintage TA and competitive tour car racing?
Again Hey, I love it, because I am "competitive." I see the same competitive mentality within both classes, which in all aspects makes them the same. But again, what was this class originally intended for?
(ANYbody see the message here?)
11-19-2008, 01:35 PM
#3304
The ROAR BL construction rules for the limited classes (10.5, 13.5, 17.5, and 21.5) are tailored to do exactly that liljohn.
When stator build, wire diameters, rotor diameters and etc. are layed out as they are in the ROAR rules - you get a basic generic motor that is capable of "X" watts, or in practice - a certain track speed depending on the vehicle.
All these motors are hand wound individual works of art. The end result of whats left as "designing wiggle room" in the rules mostly comes down to powerband application, rough efficiency, and how the motor "feels". There is about the same deviation in perfromance across several runs of the same motor, than there is across the motor brands.
These build rules are STRICT because the users demand ROAR not to promote a "motor of the week" situation, and would rather have a stable power level where all brands have a reasonable chance of competing fairly.
ROAR cannot promote single manufacturer classes/racing, but what we CAN do is build a set of rules where everyone can build a competitive motor with a little motor understanding and some R&D to tweak whats available to tweak.
When stator build, wire diameters, rotor diameters and etc. are layed out as they are in the ROAR rules - you get a basic generic motor that is capable of "X" watts, or in practice - a certain track speed depending on the vehicle.
All these motors are hand wound individual works of art. The end result of whats left as "designing wiggle room" in the rules mostly comes down to powerband application, rough efficiency, and how the motor "feels". There is about the same deviation in perfromance across several runs of the same motor, than there is across the motor brands.
These build rules are STRICT because the users demand ROAR not to promote a "motor of the week" situation, and would rather have a stable power level where all brands have a reasonable chance of competing fairly.
ROAR cannot promote single manufacturer classes/racing, but what we CAN do is build a set of rules where everyone can build a competitive motor with a little motor understanding and some R&D to tweak whats available to tweak.
I'm good with that.
11-19-2008, 01:42 PM
#3305
whats to say that this time next yr...
every1 who invested in brushless and finding a novak 21.5 now has to buy yet another 21.5 from the new breed which are superior enuff to warrant the move. and yes the other motors have already shown to have an edge on the novak greater than the novak has on Brushed/4 or 17.5/4.
leaving track owners to debate having 'trans am' races, and whether to call USVTA or ROAR. If the latter, than for any reason they are not 21.5/lipo...than u finally lost them or force them to buy. dont forget that license at those regional races too.
Why does everything have to be ROAR? Some classes are best with 1 Brand.
It was stated many times over that these are the rules, dig? Well i guess this got a lil too popular b/c multiple chassis' could be used and not just HPI. So now ROAR comes along gasping for fresh air and says yeh we're gonna gobble this up and because they cant 'openly' stipulate 1 manufacturer, we'll go ahead and loosen up the 'ROAR RULES' enuff to piss off just a couple, but sell a bunch of lipos and brushless setups to the masses!
R
PS- all those who say they cant find a novak 21.5 for sale??? i believe it'll get real good come wk's end.
PSS-1st lack of stock in hpi vintage tires in 2009, then slicks will be allowed, then come this time next yr, prolly on jaco's.
PSSS-with every new touring car, this class becomes less 'vintage'
every1 who invested in brushless and finding a novak 21.5 now has to buy yet another 21.5 from the new breed which are superior enuff to warrant the move. and yes the other motors have already shown to have an edge on the novak greater than the novak has on Brushed/4 or 17.5/4.
leaving track owners to debate having 'trans am' races, and whether to call USVTA or ROAR. If the latter, than for any reason they are not 21.5/lipo...than u finally lost them or force them to buy. dont forget that license at those regional races too.
Why does everything have to be ROAR? Some classes are best with 1 Brand.
It was stated many times over that these are the rules, dig? Well i guess this got a lil too popular b/c multiple chassis' could be used and not just HPI. So now ROAR comes along gasping for fresh air and says yeh we're gonna gobble this up and because they cant 'openly' stipulate 1 manufacturer, we'll go ahead and loosen up the 'ROAR RULES' enuff to piss off just a couple, but sell a bunch of lipos and brushless setups to the masses!
R
PS- all those who say they cant find a novak 21.5 for sale??? i believe it'll get real good come wk's end.
PSS-1st lack of stock in hpi vintage tires in 2009, then slicks will be allowed, then come this time next yr, prolly on jaco's.
PSSS-with every new touring car, this class becomes less 'vintage'
11-19-2008, 01:48 PM
#3306
Just picked up a 21.5...It was as easy as looking online and making an order...Got it from Stormer and it should be @ my door no later than tomorrow afternoon...No problems
11-19-2008, 01:58 PM
#3307
Not to be anti-R.O.A.R. but......
I wanted to get into this class due to the "spec" parts. Same brushless motor for everyone, same tire for everyone. Driving and fun is what the class is all about. But now it will be motor of the week, tire of the month. The fun will be out, the dollar will be in.
This is just my two cents worth and is not a slam to any R.O.A.R. officials. They work long and hard for R.O.A.R. but the should stick to the classes that are run by I.F.M.A.R. and promote those. Vintage Trans-Am does not need another organization to standardize what is already a successful set of rules.
I wanted to get into this class due to the "spec" parts. Same brushless motor for everyone, same tire for everyone. Driving and fun is what the class is all about. But now it will be motor of the week, tire of the month. The fun will be out, the dollar will be in.
This is just my two cents worth and is not a slam to any R.O.A.R. officials. They work long and hard for R.O.A.R. but the should stick to the classes that are run by I.F.M.A.R. and promote those. Vintage Trans-Am does not need another organization to standardize what is already a successful set of rules.
11-19-2008, 02:09 PM
#3308
I can only compare USVTA to my experience over 10 years ago. I ran TC and F-1.
I gentleman nicknamed Doc ran the F-1 club. He used hand out motors. Guys that spanked me in TC I could actually race in F-1. Why? It came down to driving only. With that motor you didn't need the best batteries. Once a few of the good guys helped me with setup, it was all driving. USVTA is like that to me.
Then TC was about the same, I remember when the 'new' Nicad 2000's came out, had to have them to keep up @ $120 per 6 cell pack.
Tinking is pretty much free. There is a difference between paying $15 for a spring set and trying those, then having some new tech; which costs hundreds, come that changes the balance.
11-19-2008, 02:23 PM
#3310
Not for the most part bro...Just check the results of most of the trophy races...Ask the "better" drivers what they are driving. V-TA is filling with serious Tour Car Racers. They're not bringing down TC-3s to get wins. Ask the better drivers what body shells they use in the big vintage ta races. Ask what go-power (motor/battery) is being used to get consistent wins. You're not going to hear 27T 4cells...Remember, not the rare or exceptional stuff. We're talking on a large scale basis, which is what sells the class to new racers or racers interested. Results tell it all Bro.
11-19-2008, 02:25 PM
#3311
Three:
Point taken, and we all appreciate the kind words for our ROAR efforts.
If you like it just the way it is - then awesome! The new ROAR rules won't change anything for you at all. ROAR has never forced anyone to do anything at all. Rules and interpretations are, and always have been, up to the race director - that is right up until it's time to crown a ROAR National Champion.
Trust me on this one guys - slicks, softer slicks, then "insert brand X touring car tire here" is not even close to being on the ROAR adgenda, just like it wouldn't be on Doug's adgenda.
ROAR and the entirety of the racing communityhave both learned a valuable lesson about the last decade of on road racing: The faster and more technical it becomes, the less participation. It's just that easy of a formula!
Better tires = faster, so therefore - not interested.
We've left the spec tire question up to the race directors. And to be a little blunt - if your local RD thinks slicks and TC tires are good for this class - he'
s obviously not paying attention to why this class has become so popular...
Point taken, and we all appreciate the kind words for our ROAR efforts.
If you like it just the way it is - then awesome! The new ROAR rules won't change anything for you at all. ROAR has never forced anyone to do anything at all. Rules and interpretations are, and always have been, up to the race director - that is right up until it's time to crown a ROAR National Champion.
Trust me on this one guys - slicks, softer slicks, then "insert brand X touring car tire here" is not even close to being on the ROAR adgenda, just like it wouldn't be on Doug's adgenda.
ROAR and the entirety of the racing communityhave both learned a valuable lesson about the last decade of on road racing: The faster and more technical it becomes, the less participation. It's just that easy of a formula!
Better tires = faster, so therefore - not interested.
We've left the spec tire question up to the race directors. And to be a little blunt - if your local RD thinks slicks and TC tires are good for this class - he'
s obviously not paying attention to why this class has become so popular...
11-19-2008, 02:26 PM
#3312
Again, this will be for ROAR racing. Knowing Doug, I'm sure he will definitely stick to his guns
Also, a majority of the ROAR races where these rules will be in effect for 21.5 are going to be regional or national type races. It should not affect week to week club type racing.
Also, a majority of the ROAR races where these rules will be in effect for 21.5 are going to be regional or national type races. It should not affect week to week club type racing.
It leads to a lot of spray on the forums, but I don't think it's really a big deal. At least at our track, a different brand pretty much wins every weekend, largely depending on who's behind the wheel. If someone lets themselves get caught up in the "flavor of the week" then that's their problem.
11-19-2008, 02:27 PM
#3313
Roar has accepted the rules "as-is" on the whole. They did add a minimum body height, width, length, etc, based on the dimensions of the cars under USVTA spec. The biggest change is 21.5 lipo only for regional events and above. NOTE THIS ONLY PERTAINS TO ROAR RACES, AND WILL NOT AFFECT USVTA RACES IN ANY WAY.
Robk unless I'm reading it wrong it sounds like only 21.5/lipo combo is going to allowed to run in regional races? Or are you saying that any ROAR approved 21.5 will be allowed in regionals and above. Just want to get some clarification on this as I have a region 1 race comming up.
11-19-2008, 02:29 PM
#3314
Not for the most part bro...Just check the results of most of the trophy races...Ask the "better" drivers what they are driving. V-TA is filling with serious Tour Car Racers. They're not bringing down TC-3s to get wins. Ask the better drivers what body shells they use in the big vintage ta races. Ask what go-power (motor/battery) is being used to get consistent wins. You're not going to hear 27T 4cells...Remember, not the rare or exceptional stuff. We're talking on a large scale basis, which is what sells the class to new racers or racers interested. Results tell it all Bro.
11-19-2008, 02:33 PM
#3315
Not for the most part bro...Just check the results of most of the trophy races...Ask the "better" drivers what they are driving. V-TA is filling with serious Tour Car Racers. They're not bringing down TC-3s to get wins. Ask the better drivers what body shells they use in the big vintage ta races. Ask what go-power (motor/battery) is being used to get consistent wins. You're not going to hear 27T 4cells...Remember, not the rare or exceptional stuff. We're talking on a large scale basis, which is what sells the class to new racers or racers interested. Results tell it all Bro.