European 2wd 1/8th pan car on-road Classic class
#3272
I see hit sore spot in this class I am sorry for . I will run what ever body the class runs next year. Gary
#3273
Tech Regular
If you want to race with the pan cars, bring a pan car! Great way to use up old rears but you'll need harder fronts.
#3274
Tech Regular
Sorry!
Yes I do get carried away at times and it might seem that I was attacking you, I am sorry!
#3275
Tech Elite
iTrader: (37)
For me, I still have my old RC300D, and I might even continue building a new "true" pan car.
#3276
Tech Regular
Sorry!
"Not a rich person." So says the guy with the new Jeep with the diamond encrusted spark plugs and wipes with $50 dollar bills (tho I hear when desperate he will resort to using a $20.)
Bodies...I briefly ran an old Foyt at the Snowball last year. I will almost certainly be running open wheel next year. I ran the new style 4wd body this year just because it was convenient to me, our build will allow pretty much any body, but I'll be the last to run a GT body.
Engines. Still not seeing this as much of a problem yet. Some guys will run fast no matter what engine they use....and some guys won't just because they can't. I don't think we've got the numbers to make this an appreciable difference. I did most of my running using a Vox with a damaged block that probably was a three port at best after epoxy work and don't recall too many problems keeping up.
Lon, you did good with the kids, but this talk of mentoring....you've got to be of good and reputable character to be a mentor, and that rules me out for sure. Maybe your grandkids can perform that task, neither has been on this earth long enough to have sinned much.
AND...you could've done it with a very affordable 4wd, but I don't want to put you to sleep talking about that, you know.
Bodies...I briefly ran an old Foyt at the Snowball last year. I will almost certainly be running open wheel next year. I ran the new style 4wd body this year just because it was convenient to me, our build will allow pretty much any body, but I'll be the last to run a GT body.
Engines. Still not seeing this as much of a problem yet. Some guys will run fast no matter what engine they use....and some guys won't just because they can't. I don't think we've got the numbers to make this an appreciable difference. I did most of my running using a Vox with a damaged block that probably was a three port at best after epoxy work and don't recall too many problems keeping up.
Lon, you did good with the kids, but this talk of mentoring....you've got to be of good and reputable character to be a mentor, and that rules me out for sure. Maybe your grandkids can perform that task, neither has been on this earth long enough to have sinned much.
AND...you could've done it with a very affordable 4wd, but I don't want to put you to sleep talking about that, you know.
So if someone gave me 3 4wd cars, I couldn't afford the time to keep them going. I grew tired of trying to keep 1 going. Nope! Pan cars are the deal in money and time. Been there, done that!
#3277
+1
... Guys are winning
with cheap motors....there is no need for hot 4wd motors....
Although If a newbie showed up with a car and had a 4wd motor...who cares...lets grow the class first....I myself will probably
run a Novarossi 3 port turbo next year....
GT class has already turned into a open class.....one run tires
and 700.00 motors?????.....only time before that class dies...
with cheap motors....there is no need for hot 4wd motors....
Although If a newbie showed up with a car and had a 4wd motor...who cares...lets grow the class first....I myself will probably
run a Novarossi 3 port turbo next year....
GT class has already turned into a open class.....one run tires
and 700.00 motors?????.....only time before that class dies...
#3278
Tech Regular
Yes, but Grenade doesn't have a traditional pan car. A locked suspension car is legal, functionally equivalent to the WRC (except that the WRC has a zero-roll front end), and has run in the class already.
For me, I still have my old RC300D, and I might even continue building a new "true" pan car.
For me, I still have my old RC300D, and I might even continue building a new "true" pan car.
Maybe Grenade should sell his suspension car and buy a pan car, my old 4wd stuff helped pay for my pan stuff.
It just seems that if you're trying to get a pan class going, you might want to start with pan cars.
#3279
Hmm
Earlier in this forum the locked suspension car was talked about. It seems that in the eyes of older and wiser racers, the L/S car might have helped to bring the pan class to its demise. ROAR may have screwed up on this one, but we're not locked into following the same path.
Maybe Grenade should sell his suspension car and buy a pan car, my old 4wd stuff helped pay for my pan stuff.
It just seems that if you're trying to get a pan class going, you might want to start with pan cars.
Maybe Grenade should sell his suspension car and buy a pan car, my old 4wd stuff helped pay for my pan stuff.
It just seems that if you're trying to get a pan class going, you might want to start with pan cars.
#3280
RULES!!
Engines, locked out suspension, bodies, vintage pan cars (300's), etc.
If there were RULES you would not have to keep going over this stuff again and again...
Something you should also keep in mind is that once basic rules are set, exceptions can be made at the club or regional level. As a club Cincinnati allows locked suspension cars in their club races, no problem. Toledo decides to have the GLC Pan class run Sedan Bodies. All they have to do is inform potential racers on the race information that that is the rule and the individual racers can decide to run or not.
What's so difficult about that?
If there were RULES you would not have to keep going over this stuff again and again...
Something you should also keep in mind is that once basic rules are set, exceptions can be made at the club or regional level. As a club Cincinnati allows locked suspension cars in their club races, no problem. Toledo decides to have the GLC Pan class run Sedan Bodies. All they have to do is inform potential racers on the race information that that is the rule and the individual racers can decide to run or not.
What's so difficult about that?
#3281
Legal?
Yes, but Grenade doesn't have a traditional pan car. A locked suspension car is legal, functionally equivalent to the WRC (except that the WRC has a zero-roll front end), and has run in the class already.
For me, I still have my old RC300D, and I might even continue building a new "true" pan car.
For me, I still have my old RC300D, and I might even continue building a new "true" pan car.
As you know I usually am in agreement with you, but the argument that a locked suspension car is legal won't fly with me. 1) In the French rules, which appear to be the most developed and usable, clearly do not allow it. 2)The One-Eighth Racer's rules, (although unpublished) have been the basic standard for a few years and they do not allow it. 3) To take another tack, if L/S is ok then so is 4WD and suspension, since there are actually no published rules!!!
Let L/S race on an individual exemption. RC 300 "Vintage Pans:, clearly meet the spirit and intent of the rules, Bring it on!!! (I have SIX! Just got two complete ones "hot off the track" from Cinci!)
Ned
#3282
#3283
Tech Elite
iTrader: (37)
Howard,
As you know I usually am in agreement with you, but the argument that a locked suspension car is legal won't fly with me. 1) In the French rules, which appear to be the most developed and usable, clearly do not allow it. 2)The One-Eighth Racer's rules, (although unpublished) have been the basic standard for a few years and they do not allow it. 3) To take another tack, if L/S is ok then so is 4WD and suspension, since there are actually no published rules!!!
Let L/S race on an individual exemption. RC 300 "Vintage Pans:, clearly meet the spirit and intent of the rules, Bring it on!!! (I have SIX! Just got two complete ones "hot off the track" from Cinci!)
Ned
As you know I usually am in agreement with you, but the argument that a locked suspension car is legal won't fly with me. 1) In the French rules, which appear to be the most developed and usable, clearly do not allow it. 2)The One-Eighth Racer's rules, (although unpublished) have been the basic standard for a few years and they do not allow it. 3) To take another tack, if L/S is ok then so is 4WD and suspension, since there are actually no published rules!!!
Let L/S race on an individual exemption. RC 300 "Vintage Pans:, clearly meet the spirit and intent of the rules, Bring it on!!! (I have SIX! Just got two complete ones "hot off the track" from Cinci!)
Ned
Certainly my choice of the word "legal" was unfortunate.
Here are some features of a a new "pan" car from a European manufacturer: uses the same front uprights, rear uprights, pivot balls, stub axles, layshaft, and half-shafts as their suspension car; and has adjustable camber, toe and front caster. It is legal.
Here are some features of a locked-suspension car: uses the same front uprights, rear uprights, pivot balls, stub axles, layshaft, and half-shafts as the suspension car; and has adjustable camber, toe and front caster. But it's not legal?
I'm interested to hear your thoughts on why a locked car should not be allowed.
Please don't read anything into this that isn't intended; I'm not trying to provoke anyone. The reason I ask is because there may be a very valid reason why the locked car should not be allowed, and at the moment I'm unaware of it.
#3284
Hm
Engines, locked out suspension, bodies, vintage pan cars (300's), etc.
If there were RULES you would not have to keep going over this stuff again and again...
Something you should also keep in mind is that once basic rules are set, exceptions can be made at the club or regional level. As a club Cincinnati allows locked suspension cars in their club races, no problem. Toledo decides to have the GLC Pan class run Sedan Bodies. All they have to do is inform potential racers on the race information that that is the rule and the individual racers can decide to run or not.
What's so difficult about that?
If there were RULES you would not have to keep going over this stuff again and again...
Something you should also keep in mind is that once basic rules are set, exceptions can be made at the club or regional level. As a club Cincinnati allows locked suspension cars in their club races, no problem. Toledo decides to have the GLC Pan class run Sedan Bodies. All they have to do is inform potential racers on the race information that that is the rule and the individual racers can decide to run or not.
What's so difficult about that?
The Roar rules apply. Technically, a locked out suspension car would be legal under the rules, and club consensus has been to this point to allow the locked out suspension car but not allow it to compete for points. We can do whatever we like at the club level, but at the series level, the rule book is in full force, IMHO. Any waiving of rules at that point can be handled nicely by either the race director or the series director. The only thing we're going over again is bringing people up to speed who are getting into the hobby, and frankly, it's a little kinder for us to do so rather than just refer them to a rule book. If there is a part of the rules that you don't like, or a new rule you think necessary, we can discuss it in this forum or elsewhere, then submit the change to ROAR for modification. It's like that with engines, currently...it's run what you have, but if our membership decides otherwise (like cost or 3 port) then we submit that and have it promulgated accordingly. And we've discussed THIS issue over and over again as well, and I still don't see a problem!
I recommend to all interested parties; during the off season, take some time to look up the existing rules concerning 2wd nitro in the ROAR rule book. Let's have a deadline of January 1st for consensus, and at that time, we'll put in a request to ROAR to add/delete/modify whatever rules we think need help. And I'll start the ball rolling with my thoughts:
1. Engines. No changes needed.
2. Bodies. Run what you like, but existing rules concerning cut outs and so forth apply.
3. Chassis. My opinion is still that the "suspension plate" on WRC and Moto is illegal, but they are the only real manufacturers at this point, most people are running their products, and the consensus has been that it is not suspension. Since the ROAR rules don't speak about it and because the consensus is clear, we continue as we are.
4. Fuel capacity/weight/foam tires/etc. all apply as written.
5. Vintage vs. classic vs. current. Doesn't really apply. To my knowledge, Tom and I are the only ones running a vintage on any basis. They all passed according to the rules in the past and still pass now, nor do we have such numbers as to support splitting our class. If some guy shows up with a '72 Heathkit, that's just peachy by me, since I doubt that guy will have any advantage.
I don't know what the "vote" was on pan guru, but I suggested Lon Sr. If he'll be so kind as to weigh in on this and give some direction to it, it'd be appreciated....I'd like to hear Rick weigh in as well given his experience with all types of pan over many years. I'm happy to go with whatever the group decides, but my vote is let things be as they are and keep it simple.
#3285
Hmm
Don't get me wrong, I don't like the idea either. But if it means another racer participating, it's okay by me.
Certainly my choice of the word "legal" was unfortunate.
Here are some features of a a new "pan" car from a European manufacturer: uses the same front uprights, rear uprights, pivot balls, stub axles, layshaft, and half-shafts as their suspension car; and has adjustable camber, toe and front caster. It is legal.
Here are some features of a locked-suspension car: uses the same front uprights, rear uprights, pivot balls, stub axles, layshaft, and half-shafts as the suspension car; and has adjustable camber, toe and front caster. But it's not legal?
I'm interested to hear your thoughts on why a locked car should not be allowed.
Please don't read anything into this that isn't intended; I'm not trying to provoke anyone. The reason I ask is because there may be a very valid reason why the locked car should not be allowed, and at the moment I'm unaware of it.
Certainly my choice of the word "legal" was unfortunate.
Here are some features of a a new "pan" car from a European manufacturer: uses the same front uprights, rear uprights, pivot balls, stub axles, layshaft, and half-shafts as their suspension car; and has adjustable camber, toe and front caster. It is legal.
Here are some features of a locked-suspension car: uses the same front uprights, rear uprights, pivot balls, stub axles, layshaft, and half-shafts as the suspension car; and has adjustable camber, toe and front caster. But it's not legal?
I'm interested to hear your thoughts on why a locked car should not be allowed.
Please don't read anything into this that isn't intended; I'm not trying to provoke anyone. The reason I ask is because there may be a very valid reason why the locked car should not be allowed, and at the moment I'm unaware of it.
Frankly, I'd have to see something pretty extreme before I'd vote to disallow it.