The future of 1/12 scale
12-31-2008, 09:23 AM
#766
Alright...
I'll drop $55 and buy an SMC pack from Stormer. Would REALLY like to try all this on our Test-n-Tune day this weekend. Stormers is overnight to me, so hopefully everything can be purchased there.
WHAT DO I NEED AS A "BOOSTER" FOR MY RECEIVER/SERVO? The Novak BEC listed above w/ LiPo cutoff won't work as it is for 2s LiPo. The "Universal" unit doesn't sound quite right either, but I may be (as I often am) mistaken. I'm pretty sure I'll need something, though. fwiw I run Spektrum 3500 receivers, Futaba 9650 servos. I can test in a brushless car with GTB and Velociti (10.5, 13.5 or 17.5) or in brushed car (KO VFS-1 and CO27 or Komodo 19).
lmk, the sooner the better so I can get stuff ordered up.
Scottrik
I'll drop $55 and buy an SMC pack from Stormer. Would REALLY like to try all this on our Test-n-Tune day this weekend. Stormers is overnight to me, so hopefully everything can be purchased there.
WHAT DO I NEED AS A "BOOSTER" FOR MY RECEIVER/SERVO? The Novak BEC listed above w/ LiPo cutoff won't work as it is for 2s LiPo. The "Universal" unit doesn't sound quite right either, but I may be (as I often am) mistaken. I'm pretty sure I'll need something, though. fwiw I run Spektrum 3500 receivers, Futaba 9650 servos. I can test in a brushless car with GTB and Velociti (10.5, 13.5 or 17.5) or in brushed car (KO VFS-1 and CO27 or Komodo 19).
lmk, the sooner the better so I can get stuff ordered up.
Scottrik
01-25-2009, 07:18 PM
#767
Just realized I posted this in the wrong thread. Lets try this again.
The future of 1/12 scale looks pretty bright from here. For stock anyway.
I have been playing with the 13.5/1c setup for a month now. And loving every min of it. No more scratching my head trying to figure out why I have no power, or why it dumps after 7 mins. No more baby sitting batterys so they dont die between races. For the most part, between rounds all I do is clean the car and tires, charge the rx pack and dope up. Now its posibble to run more than one class or just bs with the guys.
Heres my take on brushless/lipo.
Brushless.....When it first came out nobody could get it up to speed. We figured it out and really got them to work. They have really close to the same power as a fresh built and tuned brushed motor but it runs like that all the time.
Li-po....when it came out it hit pretty hard. In sedan anyway. Everybody had great hp. Then you started to see the guys that could drive and setup a chassis start to run at the front of the pack cause now they had the hp to run with the guys that spent big money on packs and knew how to tune a brushed motor. Allmost nobody would give there secrects out on how to tune those stupid things.
Now we have 13.5/1 cell li-po powerd 1/12 scale. Some say its faster than 17.5/4cell. On average they are correct. These things are missles for a stock class car. BUT, if you ever go to a big race and see the really fast guys and wonder how they get there cars to go so dam fast? Batterys that we cant find, afford or just plain cant get !!!!!! With this setup EVERYBODY can have factory level power !!
I have had the chance to race a few of the truly fast guys. You know, the ones that can put it in the A at a big event? Guess what? I can now run nose to tail with them because I have the same power!! Whats that gonna do for the sport??
Answer? Way closer racing. A battle between drivers and not there wallets !! Chassis setup is still a big part of it but with pan cars its allmost a no brainer. These are the easyest and fastest chassis to setup that I have ever run. Yes Im new to pan cars but by the 3rd race I had my car perfectly dialed in. It leaves me wanting NOTHING in handling.
Mod is gonna need a bigger pack than the 4000 im running. But cant see why they couldnt do it on a 5000 pack. There doing it now on what, 4600 or 5300 round cells ?? They would need a cutoff to protect the pack from being drained too far but thats no big deal. Some one should have one soon seeing how they have them for 2cell now.
Weight.... Yes the 13.5/1c is lighter then round cells. SO WHAT ! The days of showing up with a box of tires to cut to the right size and throwing them out after 1 run are gone ! Ive had the same set of tires on my car for 3 races now. Instead of having to buy new tires every other race I can buy diffrent compounds to try once in a while.
In these ecomonic times, we have to cut cost were we can. In that asspect this is a home run !!
I guess if R.O.A.R. is driven by the industry it will take for ever to get a ruling on this class, or never. If they are driver supportive then we should hear somthing soon.
See you at the races.
DK
The future of 1/12 scale looks pretty bright from here. For stock anyway.
I have been playing with the 13.5/1c setup for a month now. And loving every min of it. No more scratching my head trying to figure out why I have no power, or why it dumps after 7 mins. No more baby sitting batterys so they dont die between races. For the most part, between rounds all I do is clean the car and tires, charge the rx pack and dope up. Now its posibble to run more than one class or just bs with the guys.
Heres my take on brushless/lipo.
Brushless.....When it first came out nobody could get it up to speed. We figured it out and really got them to work. They have really close to the same power as a fresh built and tuned brushed motor but it runs like that all the time.
Li-po....when it came out it hit pretty hard. In sedan anyway. Everybody had great hp. Then you started to see the guys that could drive and setup a chassis start to run at the front of the pack cause now they had the hp to run with the guys that spent big money on packs and knew how to tune a brushed motor. Allmost nobody would give there secrects out on how to tune those stupid things.
Now we have 13.5/1 cell li-po powerd 1/12 scale. Some say its faster than 17.5/4cell. On average they are correct. These things are missles for a stock class car. BUT, if you ever go to a big race and see the really fast guys and wonder how they get there cars to go so dam fast? Batterys that we cant find, afford or just plain cant get !!!!!! With this setup EVERYBODY can have factory level power !!
I have had the chance to race a few of the truly fast guys. You know, the ones that can put it in the A at a big event? Guess what? I can now run nose to tail with them because I have the same power!! Whats that gonna do for the sport??
Answer? Way closer racing. A battle between drivers and not there wallets !! Chassis setup is still a big part of it but with pan cars its allmost a no brainer. These are the easyest and fastest chassis to setup that I have ever run. Yes Im new to pan cars but by the 3rd race I had my car perfectly dialed in. It leaves me wanting NOTHING in handling.
Mod is gonna need a bigger pack than the 4000 im running. But cant see why they couldnt do it on a 5000 pack. There doing it now on what, 4600 or 5300 round cells ?? They would need a cutoff to protect the pack from being drained too far but thats no big deal. Some one should have one soon seeing how they have them for 2cell now.
Weight.... Yes the 13.5/1c is lighter then round cells. SO WHAT ! The days of showing up with a box of tires to cut to the right size and throwing them out after 1 run are gone ! Ive had the same set of tires on my car for 3 races now. Instead of having to buy new tires every other race I can buy diffrent compounds to try once in a while.
In these ecomonic times, we have to cut cost were we can. In that asspect this is a home run !!
I guess if R.O.A.R. is driven by the industry it will take for ever to get a ruling on this class, or never. If they are driver supportive then we should hear somthing soon.
See you at the races.
DK
01-26-2009, 04:02 AM
#768
I have put a 1/12 in the A, at some bigger races, and run regularly with National caliber drivers albeit about a lap off their runs. The 13.5 with out addressing more weight is too fast to run with 4-cell, and without the weight it is so light it gets punted with a little 8 wheeling MUCH more easily and just.
Bottom line is tracks and ROAR are/will do those of us content with "stock" and injustice allowing a lighter car with a faster motor even with the drop in voltage.
My take, you want to run LiPo...fine... the class is 17.5 and 795g min. if that puts you at a disadvantage with Li-po then that is your trade off for convienece.
As for allowing it to get guys running, what about those of us who don't want to run because they are "cheating and then get gripe when their light cars get bounced around in traffic.
01-26-2009, 05:14 AM
#769
I think we need to run together at the local level to see how these two compair. But yes, at major races they need to be seprate class's. There you go, at cleveland next yr how about add a super stock class to 1/12 scale ? 13.5/1c at 700 to 750 grams ?? I know I would start going to big races for that !!!
DK
01-26-2009, 05:19 AM
#770
The key is it MUST be it's own class even at the club level, 17.5 is slower and 13.5 is way faster, than legal 4-cell stock.
I have put a 1/12 in the A, at some bigger races, and run regularly with National caliber drivers albeit about a lap off their runs. The 13.5 with out addressing more weight is too fast to run with 4-cell, and without the weight it is so light it gets punted with a little 8 wheeling MUCH more easily and just.
Bottom line is tracks and ROAR are/will do those of us content with "stock" and injustice allowing a lighter car with a faster motor even with the drop in voltage.
My take, you want to run LiPo...fine... the class is 17.5 and 795g min. if that puts you at a disadvantage with Li-po then that is your trade off for convienece.
As for allowing it to get guys running, what about those of us who don't want to run because they are "cheating and then get gripe when their light cars get bounced around in traffic.
I have put a 1/12 in the A, at some bigger races, and run regularly with National caliber drivers albeit about a lap off their runs. The 13.5 with out addressing more weight is too fast to run with 4-cell, and without the weight it is so light it gets punted with a little 8 wheeling MUCH more easily and just.
Bottom line is tracks and ROAR are/will do those of us content with "stock" and injustice allowing a lighter car with a faster motor even with the drop in voltage.
My take, you want to run LiPo...fine... the class is 17.5 and 795g min. if that puts you at a disadvantage with Li-po then that is your trade off for convienece.
As for allowing it to get guys running, what about those of us who don't want to run because they are "cheating and then get gripe when their light cars get bounced around in traffic.
01-26-2009, 05:56 AM
#771
Trying to run them with an equivalency makes as much sense as say letting me run touring 17.5 class with a 13.5 5 cell and no weight penalties. Come to think of it that does not sound like too bad of an idea.
Sure we need all the 1/12 guys we can get, hell we need all the RC racers we can get but do we do it for the sake of rules and regulations, this crap has opened the door for anyone to think they have and equivalency and start running it... because they are one more racer with entry fee
and what about the guy that stops running because they don't want to deal with the Lipo C rating wars, Yeah it will happen, everyone of you knows it.
I'm not for adding class in general but perhaps a single lipo 1/12 class for 17.5 would answer the crys for slower speeds and less battery hassles and the rest of us can quit running 17.5 4-cell all together and move on to 13.5 or 10.5 4-cell (which I also run now).
Just seems odd that the U.S. is the only one sanctioning Li-Po
Sure we need all the 1/12 guys we can get, hell we need all the RC racers we can get but do we do it for the sake of rules and regulations, this crap has opened the door for anyone to think they have and equivalency and start running it... because they are one more racer with entry fee
and what about the guy that stops running because they don't want to deal with the Lipo C rating wars, Yeah it will happen, everyone of you knows it.I'm not for adding class in general but perhaps a single lipo 1/12 class for 17.5 would answer the crys for slower speeds and less battery hassles and the rest of us can quit running 17.5 4-cell all together and move on to 13.5 or 10.5 4-cell (which I also run now).
Just seems odd that the U.S. is the only one sanctioning Li-Po
Last edited by miller tyme; 01-26-2009 at 06:07 AM.
01-26-2009, 06:55 AM
#772
Sure we need all the 1/12 guys we can get, hell we need all the RC racers we can get but do we do it for the sake of rules and regulations, this crap has opened the door for anyone to think they have and equivalency and start running it... because they are one more racer with entry fee and what about the guy that stops running because they don't want to deal with the Lipo C rating wars, Yeah it will happen, everyone of you knows it.
I'm not for adding class in general but perhaps a single lipo 1/12 class for 17.5 would answer the crys for slower speeds and less battery hassles and the rest of us can quit running 17.5 4-cell all together and move on to 13.5 or 10.5 4-cell (which I also run now).
Just seems odd that the U.S. is the only one sanctioning Li-Po
and what about the guy that stops running because they don't want to deal with the Lipo C rating wars, Yeah it will happen, everyone of you knows it.I'm not for adding class in general but perhaps a single lipo 1/12 class for 17.5 would answer the crys for slower speeds and less battery hassles and the rest of us can quit running 17.5 4-cell all together and move on to 13.5 or 10.5 4-cell (which I also run now).
Just seems odd that the U.S. is the only one sanctioning Li-Po
C rating wars? Ya, there coming and are kinda here now. But I have put my sedan (25c) up agains much bigger packs with higher c rating and can hold my own. 1/12 would probly show the diffrents much more than a heavy sedan though.
DK
01-26-2009, 07:07 AM
#773
Tech Master
iTrader: (16)
Why's that? Somebody has got to try it first, so why not the USA.
I would love to see the LiPo pack as an option, BUT the the T-Bar guys are going to have more troubles with this than Side-Link guys. I know if can be done, but requires complete rewire and new setup.
17.5/1-cell LiPo should become the NEW stock class, but I'm not sure where 13.5, 10.5, etc... with 4-cell NiMh's fall into this. It is a problem for now, but it will work itself out over time. I can tell you that if you slow down 1/12 cars by staying with 17.5 motors, but dropping to 3.7V LiPo's, more people could run these at a closer pace for some great competitive racing, just like we are seeing in WGT with Spec Tires and 17.5 or 13.5.
I would love to see the LiPo pack as an option, BUT the the T-Bar guys are going to have more troubles with this than Side-Link guys. I know if can be done, but requires complete rewire and new setup.
17.5/1-cell LiPo should become the NEW stock class, but I'm not sure where 13.5, 10.5, etc... with 4-cell NiMh's fall into this. It is a problem for now, but it will work itself out over time. I can tell you that if you slow down 1/12 cars by staying with 17.5 motors, but dropping to 3.7V LiPo's, more people could run these at a closer pace for some great competitive racing, just like we are seeing in WGT with Spec Tires and 17.5 or 13.5.
01-26-2009, 07:29 AM
#774
Can someone tell me what 1S Lipo packs people are using in 12th scale?
01-26-2009, 07:39 AM
#775
Why's that? Somebody has got to try it first, so why not the USA.
I would love to see the LiPo pack as an option, BUT the the T-Bar guys are going to have more troubles with this than Side-Link guys. I know if can be done, but requires complete rewire and new setup.
17.5/1-cell LiPo should become the NEW stock class, but I'm not sure where 13.5, 10.5, etc... with 4-cell NiMh's fall into this. It is a problem for now, but it will work itself out over time. I can tell you that if you slow down 1/12 cars by staying with 17.5 motors, but dropping to 3.7V LiPo's, more people could run these at a closer pace for some great competitive racing, just like we are seeing in WGT with Spec Tires and 17.5 or 13.5.
I would love to see the LiPo pack as an option, BUT the the T-Bar guys are going to have more troubles with this than Side-Link guys. I know if can be done, but requires complete rewire and new setup.
17.5/1-cell LiPo should become the NEW stock class, but I'm not sure where 13.5, 10.5, etc... with 4-cell NiMh's fall into this. It is a problem for now, but it will work itself out over time. I can tell you that if you slow down 1/12 cars by staying with 17.5 motors, but dropping to 3.7V LiPo's, more people could run these at a closer pace for some great competitive racing, just like we are seeing in WGT with Spec Tires and 17.5 or 13.5.
13.5/1c in 1/12 with no spec tire and 10.5/1c in WGT with spec tires would be killer. And the WGT would be really close to 13.5/4c there running now. But then I would have to off set my motors of all 13.5's to all but one 13.5.
fpart... SMC is the only hard cased 1cell lipo I know of.
DK
01-26-2009, 09:50 AM
#776
Tech Rookie
Hi.
I just stumbled across this topic and read it with interest.
I recently picked up my old Asso RC12i, and put a 2s 5100 Robitronic LiPo in it, because NiMh stick packs didn't fit. Good reason, isn't it?
Anyway, on a regulare 22 turns brushed motor that car was flying!! I'm looking forward to put in a brushless set
.
As for new regulations: A lot will change quite drastically in the near future I'm sure. However, I don't get the whole lowering voltage to stick to existing motors in order to keep performance in check. The solution proposed by the topic starter makes sense to me. In a way, with the increased performance of batteries and motors, we'll need smaller stuff in order to keep on the same power level for stock classes compared to the old days. It also means, that modified goes more and more ballistic.
I currently read from the posts in this topic is 540 size motors being too overpowered for the 1:12th class as soon as you put in a 2s LiPo. I currently run 1:10 touring cars here in Holland, and we also use "only" 5 cells NiMh for the same reason. 6 cells is just too wild. Alternative is to increase windings and reset the balance. Lowering the diameter/length of the motors as proposed here also makes sense, when the number of windings becomes unpractical.
I absolutely applaud all initiatives and and openminded testing that's going on, because it's the only way to see what makes sense and what doesn't.
Regarding migration to new technology: for club races it should be allowed to run the "old" set-up with 4 cells NiMh and corresponding motor, or a new setup with LiPo and matching motor, such that performance is similar. For top level races the regulations might be stricter, but the budgets will be bigger as well, hence buying new kit won't be that much of an issue. Top racers tend to rotate their equipment pretty frequently anyway.
If the choice between one or two cells is open, I would opt for two, because a higher voltage makes things a lot simpler. A receiver pack in an electric car seems absolutely daft to me.
I just stumbled across this topic and read it with interest.
I recently picked up my old Asso RC12i, and put a 2s 5100 Robitronic LiPo in it, because NiMh stick packs didn't fit. Good reason, isn't it?
Anyway, on a regulare 22 turns brushed motor that car was flying!! I'm looking forward to put in a brushless set
. As for new regulations: A lot will change quite drastically in the near future I'm sure. However, I don't get the whole lowering voltage to stick to existing motors in order to keep performance in check. The solution proposed by the topic starter makes sense to me. In a way, with the increased performance of batteries and motors, we'll need smaller stuff in order to keep on the same power level for stock classes compared to the old days. It also means, that modified goes more and more ballistic.
I currently read from the posts in this topic is 540 size motors being too overpowered for the 1:12th class as soon as you put in a 2s LiPo. I currently run 1:10 touring cars here in Holland, and we also use "only" 5 cells NiMh for the same reason. 6 cells is just too wild. Alternative is to increase windings and reset the balance. Lowering the diameter/length of the motors as proposed here also makes sense, when the number of windings becomes unpractical.
I absolutely applaud all initiatives and and openminded testing that's going on, because it's the only way to see what makes sense and what doesn't.
Regarding migration to new technology: for club races it should be allowed to run the "old" set-up with 4 cells NiMh and corresponding motor, or a new setup with LiPo and matching motor, such that performance is similar. For top level races the regulations might be stricter, but the budgets will be bigger as well, hence buying new kit won't be that much of an issue. Top racers tend to rotate their equipment pretty frequently anyway.
If the choice between one or two cells is open, I would opt for two, because a higher voltage makes things a lot simpler. A receiver pack in an electric car seems absolutely daft to me.
01-26-2009, 10:26 AM
#777
01-26-2009, 08:12 PM
#778
Tech Fanatic
iTrader: (23)
The future of 1/12 scale in my opinion depends soley on the ability of manufactures to come up with a product that is easy for a beginer to jump in and race, like a Slash, without being so fast that they can't make a clean lap in 8 minutes. How many new guys do you see at an on road track vs. those at a dirt track? Heck, in a city with over 2,000,000 people, we can't even supoort a carpet track at all, yet they get well over 100 entries every week at the off road track. There are more new guys there on a weekly basis than there are total running on road within a three hour drive of here. Sad!
If it's lipo that does it great, but I think it's gonna take more than a new battery.
If it's lipo that does it great, but I think it's gonna take more than a new battery.
01-27-2009, 12:03 AM
#779
Tech Master
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Oreganastan Pacific Wonderland home to Indoor Farming
Posts: 1,059
WHEN did 12th become a "beginner" class?
Mark
Mark
01-27-2009, 09:03 AM
#780
The future of 1/12 scale in my opinion depends soley on the ability of manufactures to come up with a product that is easy for a beginer to jump in and race, like a Slash, without being so fast that they can't make a clean lap in 8 minutes. How many new guys do you see at an on road track vs. those at a dirt track? Heck, in a city with over 2,000,000 people, we can't even supoort a carpet track at all, yet they get well over 100 entries every week at the off road track. There are more new guys there on a weekly basis than there are total running on road within a three hour drive of here. Sad!
If it's lipo that does it great, but I think it's gonna take more than a new battery.
If it's lipo that does it great, but I think it's gonna take more than a new battery.
Fact is that in most areas we're lucky to see one or two new 12th (or sedan) racers in a year. What are we supposed to do? Let the one ot two guys run around the track by themselves in a class that is a beginner speed? All this whe the rest of the "stock" racers are running a class that's pretty much mod speeds from 10 years ago. Nice.
Dirt has new racers for two big reasons that I can see. First, the cars are able to be run at home in the yard. Yes, kids want to bash around the yard during the summer. Second, the stock cars are running at speeds that kids can actually handle. They aren't destroying the cars every run.