The future of 1/12 scale
01-27-2009, 10:10 AM
#781
I couldn't agree more and the comment right after yours sums up the problem. It's the whole I don't want some kid learning how to race in my class attitude that's the problem. Where are new onroad guys supposed to start if the slowest cars are too fast? And don't you guys give me the old "run VTA" or run "silvercan" excuse.
Li-Po would have a lot less resistance if it emerged as another (slower class) Sure numbers might divide at first but in the end it will either work or not.
Slower speeds and easier for novice seems to be the recurring theme, running these cars with a 13.5 and light (skitish at speed) weight does not fit either idea.
I happen to enjoy helping 'some kid' run and have and do at times sacrifice my run/prep to help. Realistically the Stock speeds are simply too fast for most true beginners and the line required to run near the front requires a lot of practice at any speed. Slow em down would help all the way around.
Long live 17.5 or 21.5 Li-po
01-27-2009, 10:56 AM
#782
Tech Elite
iTrader: (42)
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: anywhere I can race 2wd dirt,and 1/12 onroad in MI.
Posts: 3,891
Trader Rating: 42 (100%+)
I couldn't agree more and the comment right after yours sums up the problem. It's the whole I don't want some kid learning how to race in my class attitude that's the problem. Where are new onroad guys supposed to start if the slowest cars are too fast? And don't you guys give me the old "run VTA" or run "silvercan" excuse.
Fact is that in most areas we're lucky to see one or two new 12th (or sedan) racers in a year. What are we supposed to do? Let the one ot two guys run around the track by themselves in a class that is a beginner speed? All this whe the rest of the "stock" racers are running a class that's pretty much mod speeds from 10 years ago. Nice.
Dirt has new racers for two big reasons that I can see. First, the cars are able to be run at home in the yard. Yes, kids want to bash around the yard during the summer. Second, the stock cars are running at speeds that kids can actually handle. They aren't destroying the cars every run.
Fact is that in most areas we're lucky to see one or two new 12th (or sedan) racers in a year. What are we supposed to do? Let the one ot two guys run around the track by themselves in a class that is a beginner speed? All this whe the rest of the "stock" racers are running a class that's pretty much mod speeds from 10 years ago. Nice.
Dirt has new racers for two big reasons that I can see. First, the cars are able to be run at home in the yard. Yes, kids want to bash around the yard during the summer. Second, the stock cars are running at speeds that kids can actually handle. They aren't destroying the cars every run.
THE slash class of the onroad world.
to go even further you could even spec a cheap 1/12 roller and make it a spec class if you wanted to.
01-27-2009, 12:05 PM
#783
The last couple post are dead on. My son has a slash and loves it. I tried to put him in sedan and had a guy leave because he was in the same heat and my son being the new driver that he is, hit him a few times. I said I was sorry for putting him in the road course class instead of oval and that cooled him down a little but not much. Most onroad guys are wound a little too tight. Plus the extra speed these onroad cars have doesnt help.
He has been drowling over my 1/12 latley. Offering to work on it and help. LOL. Might have to build one for him to see how he does.
This fri Im gonna try a 17.5/1c. I know Im gonna get my a** handed to me but want to see how it does against the 17.5 and 27 turn 4 cell rigs. Im a fair driver so I might be able to put it on the box but, no promise's. I will let you guys know how it goes.
DK
He has been drowling over my 1/12 latley. Offering to work on it and help. LOL. Might have to build one for him to see how he does.
This fri Im gonna try a 17.5/1c. I know Im gonna get my a** handed to me but want to see how it does against the 17.5 and 27 turn 4 cell rigs. Im a fair driver so I might be able to put it on the box but, no promise's. I will let you guys know how it goes.
DK
01-27-2009, 12:22 PM
#784
Tech Elite
iTrader: (42)
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: anywhere I can race 2wd dirt,and 1/12 onroad in MI.
Posts: 3,891
Trader Rating: 42 (100%+)
The last couple post are dead on. My son has a slash and loves it. I tried to put him in sedan and had a guy leave because he was in the same heat and my son being the new driver that he is, hit him a few times. I said I was sorry for putting him in the road course class instead of oval and that cooled him down a little but not much. Most onroad guys are wound a little too tight. Plus the extra speed these onroad cars have doesnt help.
He has been drowling over my 1/12 latley. Offering to work on it and help. LOL. Might have to build one for him to see how he does.
This fri Im gonna try a 17.5/1c. I know Im gonna get my a** handed to me but want to see how it does against the 17.5 and 27 turn 4 cell rigs. Im a fair driver so I might be able to put it on the box but, no promise's. I will let you guys know how it goes.
DK
He has been drowling over my 1/12 latley. Offering to work on it and help. LOL. Might have to build one for him to see how he does.
This fri Im gonna try a 17.5/1c. I know Im gonna get my a** handed to me but want to see how it does against the 17.5 and 27 turn 4 cell rigs. Im a fair driver so I might be able to put it on the box but, no promise's. I will let you guys know how it goes.
DK
01-29-2009, 08:09 AM
#786
I don't think rubber on a 12th car would work very well.. but do you really think people would do it if it sucked for everyone ? I think Foam is for Pan Cars. Rubber needs independant suspension.
01-29-2009, 08:10 AM
#787
Tech Master
iTrader: (16)
Leave the rubber tires to the 1/18 and 1/10 touring cars.
01-29-2009, 02:23 PM
#788
Tech Fanatic
First, weight. Rubber tyres are an order of magnitude heavier than foam, even with a decent cap system. It's the worst sort of weight - rotating weight. The cars accelerate poorly, and get lazy and unresponsive in the turns.
Secondly, contact patch and slip angles. A rubber tyre has one contact patch, and one slip angle. A foam tyre behaves as if it has a contact patch for each little bit of foam, and so although slips, it does so differently across the contact patch of the tyre. This means that it has the effect of going progressively from static to dynamic friction states, and thus we get a very controllable slide. Rubber tyres need a lot more slowing down to recover fron (say) understeer than a foam tyre. As was said above, you really need independent suspension to get good control over a rubber tyre, and a lot more weight (as in a TC) helps too.
It's better to have (say) six sets of tyres that you use once every heat of a race meeting, which means you don't have to adjust the ride height. That way, you set the car on the bench at home when doing the usual maintenance, and it then runs the same all day at the race. HTH
01-31-2009, 07:44 AM
#789
Hey guys. I raced the 17.5/1c last night.
I started with a .25 more roll than the 13.5. What a pig. No punch, very little speed but the car handled just like it did with the 13.5. It was a tighter layout so I had a little chassis tunning to do. I did have my 13.5 with me but really didnt want to put it in unless I HAD to.
Over the course of the night I went up a few teeth to get some power out of it. Played with the timming and the punch on the speedo. It got a little better. By the end of the night I had REALLY close to the same topend as everybody else but was down on punch. I got to drive a few other cars and they got to drive mine. I had the best chassis with the worst motor. LOL.
I ended up with a 3.48 roll out for the main but think it can carry a little more. I have to get some more pinions. Think Im gonna leave the 17.5 in for another race or two to see what I can get out of it. It was getting pretty close to everybody else. Maybe some more testing will bring it up to speed but, dont think it will ever catch a good 17.5/4cell car.
DK
I started with a .25 more roll than the 13.5. What a pig. No punch, very little speed but the car handled just like it did with the 13.5. It was a tighter layout so I had a little chassis tunning to do. I did have my 13.5 with me but really didnt want to put it in unless I HAD to.
Over the course of the night I went up a few teeth to get some power out of it. Played with the timming and the punch on the speedo. It got a little better. By the end of the night I had REALLY close to the same topend as everybody else but was down on punch. I got to drive a few other cars and they got to drive mine. I had the best chassis with the worst motor. LOL.
I ended up with a 3.48 roll out for the main but think it can carry a little more. I have to get some more pinions. Think Im gonna leave the 17.5 in for another race or two to see what I can get out of it. It was getting pretty close to everybody else. Maybe some more testing will bring it up to speed but, dont think it will ever catch a good 17.5/4cell car.
DK
01-31-2009, 09:14 AM
#790
Lipo in 1:12 thats nice
Did this for a long time ago... 2s2p 1800 - Novak Sensor 380 8.5T...it is a Screamer..no need for Novak, can just use a simple Mamba 25ESC if ya want...the acc,and handling are inzane...
Here is the setup with 4000mah Maxamps...we can if we just want to..
Here is the setup with 4000mah Maxamps...we can if we just want to..
01-31-2009, 09:33 AM
#791
Tech Regular
Hey guys. I raced the 17.5/1c last night.
I started with a .25 more roll than the 13.5. What a pig. No punch, very little speed but the car handled just like it did with the 13.5. It was a tighter layout so I had a little chassis tunning to do. I did have my 13.5 with me but really didnt want to put it in unless I HAD to.
Over the course of the night I went up a few teeth to get some power out of it. Played with the timming and the punch on the speedo. It got a little better. By the end of the night I had REALLY close to the same topend as everybody else but was down on punch. I got to drive a few other cars and they got to drive mine. I had the best chassis with the worst motor. LOL.
I ended up with a 3.48 roll out for the main but think it can carry a little more. I have to get some more pinions. Think Im gonna leave the 17.5 in for another race or two to see what I can get out of it. It was getting pretty close to everybody else. Maybe some more testing will bring it up to speed but, dont think it will ever catch a good 17.5/4cell car.
DK
I started with a .25 more roll than the 13.5. What a pig. No punch, very little speed but the car handled just like it did with the 13.5. It was a tighter layout so I had a little chassis tunning to do. I did have my 13.5 with me but really didnt want to put it in unless I HAD to.
Over the course of the night I went up a few teeth to get some power out of it. Played with the timming and the punch on the speedo. It got a little better. By the end of the night I had REALLY close to the same topend as everybody else but was down on punch. I got to drive a few other cars and they got to drive mine. I had the best chassis with the worst motor. LOL.
I ended up with a 3.48 roll out for the main but think it can carry a little more. I have to get some more pinions. Think Im gonna leave the 17.5 in for another race or two to see what I can get out of it. It was getting pretty close to everybody else. Maybe some more testing will bring it up to speed but, dont think it will ever catch a good 17.5/4cell car.
DK
01-31-2009, 03:21 PM
#792
Everyone at our track is above 3.5" for rollout on the 17.5 motors on our mid size track. I don't know your track, but I would say I could run at least 3.6" even on a tight track with my Novak 17.5 setup. The sweet spot for my Orion 13.5/Tekin setup was where you are now. The single cell lipo seems to like a lot of gearing. We haven't found an exciting setup for 17.5 as it will always lack punch. I really like the way the 13.5 feels , but the 17.5 is like a dead fish. On the other hand, I had a front end setup issue last week and it probably kept me from banging up the car.
LOL, dead fish, thats funny.
Im on a 75x35 ft track. Last week I was running a 13.5 rolled to 3.2. The thing was a missile. Cant believe your running more than that. Mine was hanging with very fast and talented guys with that gear and we were so close in power you really couldnt tell a diffrents.
The 17.5 on the other hand.....It did start to feel better the more gear I put on it. 3.48 started to look like it wanted to go. I picked up a 47 pinion to put me at 3.58 for next weeks race. Not really sure how much more I can go. Starting to run out of room now. The guys should be back from snow birds next week so maybe I will have some one to use as a gauge.
I will keep you guys updated.
DK
01-31-2009, 08:57 PM
#793
LOL, dead fish, thats funny.
Im on a 75x35 ft track. Last week I was running a 13.5 rolled to 3.2. The thing was a missile. Cant believe your running more than that. Mine was hanging with very fast and talented guys with that gear and we were so close in power you really couldnt tell a diffrents.
The 17.5 on the other hand.....It did start to feel better the more gear I put on it. 3.48 started to look like it wanted to go. I picked up a 47 pinion to put me at 3.58 for next weeks race. Not really sure how much more I can go. Starting to run out of room now. The guys should be back from snow birds next week so maybe I will have some one to use as a gauge.
I will keep you guys updated.
DK
Im on a 75x35 ft track. Last week I was running a 13.5 rolled to 3.2. The thing was a missile. Cant believe your running more than that. Mine was hanging with very fast and talented guys with that gear and we were so close in power you really couldnt tell a diffrents.
The 17.5 on the other hand.....It did start to feel better the more gear I put on it. 3.48 started to look like it wanted to go. I picked up a 47 pinion to put me at 3.58 for next weeks race. Not really sure how much more I can go. Starting to run out of room now. The guys should be back from snow birds next week so maybe I will have some one to use as a gauge.
I will keep you guys updated.
DK
02-01-2009, 10:39 AM
#795
I ran single cell last Thursday and it was actually pretty good (for stock). I found that my Novak motor needed about a 3.6 rollout on the small track I race at so you'll probably need more than that to run on a normal sized track.
I am finding that 17.5 single cell likes a ton of timing. It will lose bottom end but it's not a big deal once you get the car to run through the corners without bogging down.
With 17.5 I think it's more important to have a speed that beginners can actually handle. Running with the same 10 or 15 guys split between two tracks is getting pretty old actually. If we can get some new racers at the club level we can eventually start running a seperate faster class.
Tire wear is great with the lighter cars. I think that 730 to 750 grams would be a good place to start. I'm finding that on some tracks you can almost run the same motor as the 4 cell guys if you run light. It's a lot easier on the motor and on the car when you pile it in.
I am finding that 17.5 single cell likes a ton of timing. It will lose bottom end but it's not a big deal once you get the car to run through the corners without bogging down.
With 17.5 I think it's more important to have a speed that beginners can actually handle. Running with the same 10 or 15 guys split between two tracks is getting pretty old actually. If we can get some new racers at the club level we can eventually start running a seperate faster class.
Tire wear is great with the lighter cars. I think that 730 to 750 grams would be a good place to start. I'm finding that on some tracks you can almost run the same motor as the 4 cell guys if you run light. It's a lot easier on the motor and on the car when you pile it in.