1141LikesCan-Am RC Series
11-27-2018, 10:35 AM - Wikipost
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06-12-2018, 02:35 PM
#61
[QUOTE=theproffesor[left]You say the problem is self evident if you’ve been to a major event recently and it’s been building for years.
Well thats why ROAR finally made new motor rules and Honestly since the implementation of the new motor rules, I haven’t seen this “motor war” that seems to still be raging. As long as you get a motor from one of the top tier companies, there are several, you’re good.
But roar isn't inforcing that motor manufacturers keep there legal motors within the parameters they submitted ... That's the new standard, see who can cheat the most without getting caught
Also, this shows that maybe we are getting to focused on “big” events. What happened to club racing being the bread and butter of this hobby? I can’t see local tracks having the time or resources to spec out multiple rental motors or privately purchased motors for parity each week. And you better believe if they don’t, cheating will be more rampant than it is now. I’ll just give my motor to an oval guy, they know all the tricks. I can’t wait to see the crazy ideas and how much money is going to be spent trying to lighten the drivetrain on these cars.
Lighter drivetrains will not make much if any difference over a current generation stock Driveline... Cause the motors will not be pushed to the limits ... They will outaccelerate any need for this compared to the motor class its replacing ...
And what happens if I get a rental handout, that I’m running at the prescribed FDR, then get passed like I’m sitting still in the straight? Or the opposite, and I get one that blows past the rest of the heat? Better yet, my motor goes up in smoke, what happens?
It will not happen ...
Same top speed between racers using simular (loose statement)products .... Now. someone comes in with electronics and batteries from 2008 will be off the pace to some extent
also if theirs a real issue with your motor the race should have a percentage of replacement motors just for accidental failures its covered in the rules
There is a tremendous amount of cart before the horse here. If Can-Am is expecting this to catch on and other tracks to endorse it, there needs to be a lot more laid out on how to handle these types of situations, and ways for smaller tracks to mitigate the cost and time constraints they have that “big” events don’t.
Not to mention, all the money I have already invested in the motors I have, that will now be paperweights. Isn’t this what this series is supposed to be eliminating? Oh wait, it’s ok when it’s your idea from a company you have approved.
All motors become paperweights in rc racing if your competative ... Between rotors getting weak /sensor board issues / now stator designs / endbell bling / test motors club motors / big race motors /back up motors ... You should thank someone for saving you all this headache and money and time you will gain to focus on other parts of your game .
Bottom line is this, there will never be equality. Best we can hope for is pairity. And I believe that’s what we have now. The biggest difference will come from the nut behind the wheel.
What we really have now is monopoly not pairity...
In some classes .....for now ...
Well thats why ROAR finally made new motor rules and Honestly since the implementation of the new motor rules, I haven’t seen this “motor war” that seems to still be raging. As long as you get a motor from one of the top tier companies, there are several, you’re good.
But roar isn't inforcing that motor manufacturers keep there legal motors within the parameters they submitted ... That's the new standard, see who can cheat the most without getting caught
Also, this shows that maybe we are getting to focused on “big” events. What happened to club racing being the bread and butter of this hobby? I can’t see local tracks having the time or resources to spec out multiple rental motors or privately purchased motors for parity each week. And you better believe if they don’t, cheating will be more rampant than it is now. I’ll just give my motor to an oval guy, they know all the tricks. I can’t wait to see the crazy ideas and how much money is going to be spent trying to lighten the drivetrain on these cars.
Lighter drivetrains will not make much if any difference over a current generation stock Driveline... Cause the motors will not be pushed to the limits ... They will outaccelerate any need for this compared to the motor class its replacing ...
And what happens if I get a rental handout, that I’m running at the prescribed FDR, then get passed like I’m sitting still in the straight? Or the opposite, and I get one that blows past the rest of the heat? Better yet, my motor goes up in smoke, what happens?
It will not happen ...
Same top speed between racers using simular (loose statement)products .... Now. someone comes in with electronics and batteries from 2008 will be off the pace to some extent
also if theirs a real issue with your motor the race should have a percentage of replacement motors just for accidental failures its covered in the rules
There is a tremendous amount of cart before the horse here. If Can-Am is expecting this to catch on and other tracks to endorse it, there needs to be a lot more laid out on how to handle these types of situations, and ways for smaller tracks to mitigate the cost and time constraints they have that “big” events don’t.
Not to mention, all the money I have already invested in the motors I have, that will now be paperweights. Isn’t this what this series is supposed to be eliminating? Oh wait, it’s ok when it’s your idea from a company you have approved.
All motors become paperweights in rc racing if your competative ... Between rotors getting weak /sensor board issues / now stator designs / endbell bling / test motors club motors / big race motors /back up motors ... You should thank someone for saving you all this headache and money and time you will gain to focus on other parts of your game .
Bottom line is this, there will never be equality. Best we can hope for is pairity. And I believe that’s what we have now. The biggest difference will come from the nut behind the wheel.
What we really have now is monopoly not pairity...
In some classes .....for now ...
Last edited by jlfx car audio; 06-12-2018 at 02:58 PM.
06-12-2018, 04:09 PM
#62
I'm sorry but everything you say takes it right back to the glaring point that the group is trying to legislate that which does not exist in an attempt to save fellow racers money. If a racer wants to help you save money then he is trying to take something from you that protects something that HE has or to make sure that another racer doesn't get access to it. You may or may not remember the era of Championship Auto Racing Teams. C.A.R.T. It was a group of racers/owners that became disenfranchised with the way that U.S.A.C. managed and operated champ car racing in the U.S. They had grand plans and for a while they were successful as they made everything so exotic and expensive that the quality of their product was lost. It has taken twenty years to get it back to the point that it is today which is nothing like it was before racers thought they knew best. You can't let the inmates run the asylum. It never works out very well.
Don't be concerned with ROAR. Petition IFMAR for a workable set of "stock" class rules and follow them. AT EVERY LEVEL from club to World's.. Don't add to the existing bureaucratic mess by trying to herd cats. Better yet when one of these "big" events pops up just boycott it and make it known why. Most vermin don't like having a light shining on them.
Don't be concerned with ROAR. Petition IFMAR for a workable set of "stock" class rules and follow them. AT EVERY LEVEL from club to World's.. Don't add to the existing bureaucratic mess by trying to herd cats. Better yet when one of these "big" events pops up just boycott it and make it known why. Most vermin don't like having a light shining on them.
06-12-2018, 04:19 PM
#63
I'm sorry but everything you say takes it right back to the glaring point that the group is trying to legislate that which does not exist in an attempt to save fellow racers money. If a racer wants to help you save money then he is trying to take something from you that protects something that HE has or to make sure that another racer doesn't get access to it. You may or may not remember the era of Championship Auto Racing Teams. C.A.R.T. It was a group of racers/owners that became disenfranchised with the way that U.S.A.C. managed and operated champ car racing in the U.S. They had grand plans and for a while they were successful as they made everything so exotic and expensive that the quality of their product was lost. It has taken twenty years to get it back to the point that it is today which is nothing like it was before racers thought they knew best. You can't let the inmates run the asylum. It never works out very well.
Don't be concerned with ROAR. Petition IFMAR for a workable set of "stock" class rules and follow them. AT EVERY LEVEL from club to World's.. Don't add to the existing bureaucratic mess by trying to herd cats. Better yet when one of these "big" events pops up just boycott it and make it known why. Most vermin don't like having a light shining on them.
Don't be concerned with ROAR. Petition IFMAR for a workable set of "stock" class rules and follow them. AT EVERY LEVEL from club to World's.. Don't add to the existing bureaucratic mess by trying to herd cats. Better yet when one of these "big" events pops up just boycott it and make it known why. Most vermin don't like having a light shining on them.
EA
06-12-2018, 05:17 PM
#64
Hey Mike- quick question for you- I know your a track owner but what is the last race you attended outside of your region?
Just wondering how wide your perspective really is.
The great part here.. is many folks have some great ideas. Please keep them coming.
Just wondering how wide your perspective really is.
The great part here.. is many folks have some great ideas. Please keep them coming.
06-12-2018, 05:48 PM
#65
NO, NO IT WOULDN'T!!! I've been in this hobby 25 years and have never seen a clear definition of stock. Oh sure, 27 turn machine wound motor, but what brushes are we using this week. Who can twist the comm the most? Who makes the best comm drops? And then hey let's make stock motors rebuildable. Now you need a comm lathe, and to be fast, you cut the comm every run. And don't tell me no, I've seen people do it. Along comes brushless motors, and all the neat little tricks to get way more power out of a "stock" motor.
When I started racing we had a club called LIMRA. At that time there was only 12th scale. We had 3 classes; stock, modified, and pro. The biggest class was mod. Not because we wanted to go faster, because it was cheaper than stock! Stock was left for new people coming into the hobby. Pro was for those racers on the high end of the skill scale. Somewhere along the way that model collapsed because too many people were more interested in winning than supporting the hobby.
There have been countless definitions of stock, and none of them have worked. The spec handout motor concept is the first idea that truly equalizes the motors for everyone. And the racers like it, if you go by the turnouts at the track that runs it.
And if you're getting your life philosophy from a Star Trek movie, I think you're in trouble.
When I started racing we had a club called LIMRA. At that time there was only 12th scale. We had 3 classes; stock, modified, and pro. The biggest class was mod. Not because we wanted to go faster, because it was cheaper than stock! Stock was left for new people coming into the hobby. Pro was for those racers on the high end of the skill scale. Somewhere along the way that model collapsed because too many people were more interested in winning than supporting the hobby.
There have been countless definitions of stock, and none of them have worked. The spec handout motor concept is the first idea that truly equalizes the motors for everyone. And the racers like it, if you go by the turnouts at the track that runs it.
And if you're getting your life philosophy from a Star Trek movie, I think you're in trouble.
06-12-2018, 06:54 PM
#67
Jiml I think you hit the nail on the head with part of your statement. I too have been doing this for 25 years. I remember the days of buying 3 handoutsc cutting coms, rating brushes, and all the magic that came with it. But, there were no “sponsored” drivers in stock. That was left to th privateers. Back then there were very few sponsored drivers. Not like now where a 10 year old kid that races only one track getting a sponsorship. Back then, mod was were a company sponsored driver shined. Now they overrun the “stock” classes, and the 1% and cheater motors is the result.
I get what the underlying purpose behind this movement is. At the club level it does rear it’s ugly head that badly, but at big events I can see where it can. But WE as racers have caused this. Our own need to be the fastest slow guy at any cost.
“Stock” should be relegated to new and less skilled drivers. If your only .1 slower running 17.5 than the guys running mod, you are not new or less skilled. Would not most of this be solved if people just stepped up when they are capable?
I get what the underlying purpose behind this movement is. At the club level it does rear it’s ugly head that badly, but at big events I can see where it can. But WE as racers have caused this. Our own need to be the fastest slow guy at any cost.
“Stock” should be relegated to new and less skilled drivers. If your only .1 slower running 17.5 than the guys running mod, you are not new or less skilled. Would not most of this be solved if people just stepped up when they are capable?
06-13-2018, 03:08 AM
#68
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"Stock" is a motor specification...not a skill level.
06-13-2018, 04:37 AM
#69
the other major thing id argue -- is the 1990s modified speeds were VERY slow (probably as fast as stock today). today's modified speeds are much faster. we have experienced people who dont want to go that fast -- and the last thing this hobby needs is us kicking people out because they dont want to go super fast.
i personally will be running mod classes only if handouts are not an option in the 2019/2020 season. in the last season i've proven that at least i can drive a mod 1/12th around the track and not make it look like a circus act. this is SO HARD -- and that its makes things exciting. but not everyone needs / wants that type of excitement.
i personally will be running mod classes only if handouts are not an option in the 2019/2020 season. in the last season i've proven that at least i can drive a mod 1/12th around the track and not make it look like a circus act. this is SO HARD -- and that its makes things exciting. but not everyone needs / wants that type of excitement.
06-13-2018, 04:39 AM
#70
In my opinion what you are attempting to carry out is a terrific idea. Right up to the point that you(the coalition) reserve the right to say who stays and who goes based on what has been stated as sub standard products. That I don't agree with and say a definition of "stock" needs to be established so that the so called manufacturers can opt in or out so both your and their liability is reduced.
As for idea's on how to control the existing madness without venturing too deeply into the whole motor thing a couple come to mind. If you spec a specific motor make it sensorless with a matching ESC. Reduce battery MAH rating to the point that run time could be an issue and let em eat. simple pre race voltage check to insure nothing over specified voltage. Add weight. Make the "stock" class a couple hundred grams(or more) heavier to start with and hand out award weight to the top three cars in every race until they are no longer the top three and then remove some incrementally. There are a couple more but lets put these out for the derision of the masses before doing so.
06-13-2018, 04:43 AM
#71
And there's the problem in a nutshell. A long time ago there was only one electric class. No one really got into playing with motors until the hobby starting getting big. It became obvious that there needed to be a separation between the serious racers (modified) and those new to the hobby trying to break in (stock). The purpose of stock was to take the motor out of the equation and have racers on a level playing field so they could develop the skills to run in the upper classes. As the hobby evolved, the mod class became too difficult to stay competitive in, and racers stayed in stock. This is when the purpose of stock eroded into a serious racing class. This was never meant to be, and is the source of all the problems we see in the current class structure.
Let's face it. The problem we're trying to solve isn't motors or classes. The problem is trying to get more people into the hobby, and keeping people in the hobby. A new racer goes to the track for the first time with all brand new stuff, only to see that other "stock" motors are twice as fast as his, at that point why bother? All the skill in the world won't make up for that. Too often I've seen people just turn around and leave never to come back.
Sorry, Xpress. Stock is a skill level, or at least it's supposed to be.
Let's face it. The problem we're trying to solve isn't motors or classes. The problem is trying to get more people into the hobby, and keeping people in the hobby. A new racer goes to the track for the first time with all brand new stuff, only to see that other "stock" motors are twice as fast as his, at that point why bother? All the skill in the world won't make up for that. Too often I've seen people just turn around and leave never to come back.
Sorry, Xpress. Stock is a skill level, or at least it's supposed to be.
06-13-2018, 05:43 AM
#72
I just wanna race !!! Personally I think its a great idea.. 360v2 probably has the best weekly car counts in the United States using these type of rules. I would encourage guys to try it before coming up with negatives about it. If it makes racing more affordable and more equal then only good things will come from it.
06-13-2018, 05:56 AM
#73
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I just wanna race !!! Personally I think its a great idea.. 360v2 probably has the best weekly car counts in the United States using these type of rules. I would encourage guys to try it before coming up with negatives about it. If it makes racing more affordable and more equal then only good things will come from it.
As a newer racer one thing that needs to be cleared up or separated is big events from club/local track racing. Vast majority of racers don’t attend the big races.
06-13-2018, 07:32 AM
#74
there lies part of the problem. How do people get to try a class that is currently only run in a few locations? Buying X number of motors for track to try a class is not a small investment.
As a newer racer one thing that needs to be cleared up or separated is big events from club/local track racing. Vast majority of racers don’t attend the big races.
The program we recommend for local / weekly club racing is defined here-- https://drive.google.com/file/d/1IX5lawFGwcm3CswJcu1zw-BX_7nLcNFX/view?usp=drivesdk
Read the doc.
06-13-2018, 10:11 AM
#75
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Bill.. it requires only a 60 dollar investment to try one motor for yourself. Pricing for tracks / hobby stores will be cheaper.
The program we recommend for local / weekly club racing is defined here-- https://drive.google.com/file/d/1IX5...w?usp=drivesdk
Read the doc.
The program we recommend for local / weekly club racing is defined here-- https://drive.google.com/file/d/1IX5...w?usp=drivesdk
Read the doc.