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-   -   Transponder Design (https://www.rctech.net/forum/radio-electronics/688396-transponder-design.html)

Aminear 03-21-2016 09:34 AM

Yes, it has. I will pm you with some info I have found.
I don't want to side track Howards orignal design posting.

PyB 04-18-2016 02:53 PM


Originally Posted by howardcano (Post 12228988)
CANO TRANSPONDER SPECIFICATIONS

DECODER COMPATIBILITY: "Cloned" ID numbers have been successfully tested on AMB RC2, AMB RC3, and Cano decoders. None are compatible with the AMB RC4. "Club" ID numbers function only on the Cano decoder.


ID NUMBERS: I have so far "cloned" about 30 numbers from MRT and AMB transponders. Each transponder contains one ID number. I have also created special programs for "club" or handout use. These programs contain ID numbers that function on the Cano decoder only.


Hi Howard,

I have made my own transponder based on your design. I'm now trying to clone some transponders, and have been struggling for days without success trying to clone 'club transponders' until I stumbled upon your post saying that cloning rc2, rc3 was OK but not cloning the club IDs...

Do you know why - they also seem to use a 3 IDs + 1 out of 7 statuses pattern...

I'm done for today, but tomorrow I'll try cloning my hybrid transponder...

PyB

howardcano 04-19-2016 02:08 AM


Originally Posted by PyB (Post 14497117)
Hi Howard,

I have made my own transponder based on your design. I'm now trying to clone some transponders, and have been struggling for days without success trying to clone 'club transponders' until I stumbled upon your post saying that cloning rc2, rc3 was OK but not cloning the club IDs...

Do you know why - they also seem to use a 3 IDs + 1 out of 7 statuses pattern...

I'm done for today, but tomorrow I'll try cloning my hybrid transponder...

PyB

When you say "club", are you referring to the old rechargeable AMB transponders? Those are different from my "club" programs, which are simply any 24-bit pattern after the preamble. These work only on the Cano decoder. There's really nothing to clone on my "club" transponders, since you may make any ID you want.

My "club" transponders don't work on any decoders other than mine, so there is no incentive to steal one from a club, hence the name.

If you are referring to the old rechargeable transponders, then I have no idea why you are having problems cloning them.

PyB 04-19-2016 03:03 AM

Thanks howard for the quick response.

I was speaking about the rechargeable ones - which i call "club" :)...

OK, then I should be able to reproduce it.

In your code, you kind of clone 10Bytes +2 bits of the stream : starts (after preamble) at Bit 25 in your code and finishes @ 106.

I thought we only needed 10 Bytes ? - Am I wrong ?
So far I tried cloning either 10Bytes or 11Bytes and that fails.

I should precise that the transponder itself works well with 'a Cano-like decoder' that doesn't care about statuses :)

Barsk 05-31-2016 03:22 AM

Hi, the specs says input voltage is max 8 V. I run my buggy in High Voltage directly from a 2S LiPO battery. That is 8.4V. What is the easiest way to up the voltage capability and still make it compatible with 6V (that I run in my other cars)? Changing serial resistor R1 to a slightly bigger one?
One other way would be to swap the zener regulator to a traditional voltage regulator of a smaller type but that would make it incompatible with the 6V case as it requires at least 6.7 V.

What is the load current from the circuit itself? Knowing it would make it easier to calculate. :)

howardcano 05-31-2016 04:37 AM


Originally Posted by Barsk (Post 14550268)
Hi, the specs says input voltage is max 8 V.

The maximum voltage is 7.2V per the spec post, #134: http://www.rctech.net/forum/12228988-post134.html


Originally Posted by Barsk (Post 14550268)
What is the easiest way to up the voltage capability and still make it compatible with 6V (that I run in my other cars)? Changing serial resistor R1 to a slightly bigger one?

Yes.


Originally Posted by Barsk (Post 14550268)
What is the load current from the circuit itself? Knowing it would make it easier to calculate. :)

The average current consumption is about 11mA from a 6V supply.

Barsk 05-31-2016 05:16 AM


Originally Posted by howardcano (Post 14550298)
The maximum voltage is 7.2V per the spec post, #134: http://www.rctech.net/forum/12228988-post134.html

Sorry, remembered incorrectly. It is a bigger jump than I thought then...

Edit: deleted rest...

Barsk 06-01-2016 03:50 AM

Done some calculations. The zener voltage is 5.1V, the max power of 500 mW gives a max current of 100 mA (Iz). The limiting resistor R1 is 39 ohm. The "test" (Izt1) voltage according to datasheet is 20 mA. I assume this is the minimum current before the zener goes non-linear, i.e we need to be within 20-100mA with Iz.

With a 6V supply we get Iz = (6-5.1)/39 = 23 mA
With a 8.4V supply we get Iz = (8.4-5.1)/39 = 84 mA
And that is with no load attached, a load would decrease Iz and lessen the power over it.

So, with the current design I do not see why you put the upper supply limit at 7.2V. It should be fine with 8.4V as well as far as I can tell. I'm sure I am missing something...

howardcano 06-01-2016 05:20 AM


Originally Posted by Barsk (Post 14551627)
Done some calculations. The zener voltage is 5.1V, the max power of 500 mW gives a max current of 100 mA (Iz). The limiting resistor R1 is 39 ohm. The "test" (Izt1) voltage according to datasheet is 20 mA. I assume this is the minimum current before the zener goes non-linear, i.e we need to be within 20-100mA with Iz.

With a 6V supply we get Iz = (6-5.1)/39 = 23 mA
With a 8.4V supply we get Iz = (8.4-5.1)/39 = 84 mA
And that is with no load attached, a load would decrease Iz and lessen the power over it.

So, with the current design I do not see why you put the upper supply limit at 7.2V. It should be fine with 8.4V as well as far as I can tell. I'm sure I am missing something...

The limit is due to power dissipation in the resistor, not the Zener. You'll need to use something bigger than 1/8W. 1/4W would be just over its limit at 8.4V input.

Barsk 06-01-2016 08:21 AM


Originally Posted by howardcano (Post 14551668)
The limit is due to power dissipation in the resistor, not the Zener. You'll need to use something bigger than 1/8W. 1/4W would be just over its limit at 8.4V input.

Ah, knew I was missing something!
Well, if I increase R1 to 43.2 ohm and use a 1/4W piece then the max zener current would be (8.4-5.1)/43.2 = 0.76A
The power dissipation would be (8.4-5.1)x0.76 = 0.25W.

The min zener current with 6V input will be (6-5.1)/43.2 = 0.21 mA. Just on the limit if I read the specs correctly. A load current will draw from this.

Is it worth a go you think?

howardcano 06-01-2016 09:25 AM


Originally Posted by Barsk (Post 14551853)
Ah, knew I was missing something!
Well, if I increase R1 to 43.2 ohm and use a 1/4W piece then the max zener current would be (8.4-5.1)/43.2 = 0.76A
The power dissipation would be (8.4-5.1)x0.76 = 0.25W.

The min zener current with 6V input will be (6-5.1)/43.2 = 0.21 mA. Just on the limit if I read the specs correctly. A load current will draw from this.

Is it worth a go you think?

That sounds like a good solution.

Barsk 06-09-2016 03:29 PM

Just a quick check. I've built one transponder and I've hooked it up to my Lab supply. BUT, I managed to switch plus and minus. Doh! And I did build a special box just to be able to connect wires securely without risk of shorting loose ends. And managed to connect the red wire to the black connector and vice versa inside that box. Stupid.

I have the power supplied directly to the load, bypassing the regulator circuit - which is the next step to build with some updates.

Well, I might be in luck though. Maybe. The LED is flashing and I see a 5 Mhz signal on the coil where I hooked up the scope directly. It looks like this.
https://www-krjg.s3.amazonaws.com/SDS00002.png
Looks good? I don't see much variation to it though, but it is slightly "instable" so possible there is some modulation somewhere. Haven't tried it with the decoder yet since it is a bit awkward to test while hooked up in lab config.

Barsk 06-10-2016 12:31 AM

Looks like I probably measured in the "wrong" spot. Tried between the CT2 and where the coil wire starts. Looks much better. The frequency reported is suspicious though. Maybe just a misinterpretation by the scope?
https://www-krjg.s3.amazonaws.com/SDS00003.png

howardcano 06-10-2016 04:10 AM


Originally Posted by Barsk (Post 14561849)
Looks like I probably measured in the "wrong" spot. Tried between the CT2 and where the coil wire starts. Looks much better. The frequency reported is suspicious though. Maybe just a misinterpretation by the scope?
https://www-krjg.s3.amazonaws.com/SDS00003.png

It's looking good! The oscilloscope is probably getting confused by the modulation, but according to the timebase settting and the displayed trace, the actual frequency appears to be correct.

Barsk 06-13-2016 01:15 AM

High voltage version of transponder
 
I finally got the parts and the time to complete my modification of the circuit, in order to make in handle higher voltages (2S LipO). I ended up scrapping the zener regulator in favor of a low dropout (LDO) version of a "real" 5 V regulator. This part handles up to 100 mA and voltages up to 30 V. The part is about the same size as a small transistor and costs about $0.8
LP2950ACZ-50-NOPB

I measured the actual current draw from the transponder (bypassing the zener) to be only 6 mA which is well inside specs. Also an input capacitor of at least 1 μF was needed so exchanged C1 with an tiny 10 uF, 16V electrolytic I had available and it fitted nicely. The problem was where to put the regulator on the PCB. I came up with this solution:
https://www-krjg.s3.amazonaws.com/IMG_6054-1.jpg

The regulator goes into the J1 holes and will share the plus and ground holes with the connector wires. It is just about enough space. The output pin is wired to the R1 hole that is under U1, the farthest hole from J1. The picture shows the completed transponder on the right and a partially completed one on left. (The strange loose wire on top of the coil is a patch for a broken pcb, the wires did not connect there, manufacturing error.)

I tested the modded circuit and it works perfectly from 5-15V. The upper limit is due to my input capacitor that is rated 16V. Up that to a 50V part and you could go to 30V. At 5V input the regulated voltage is 4.88V so it is fully usable. At 5.5-6V it is rock steady at 5V. Actually the microprocessor works down to 3.5 V input, but the power to the antenna is limited then. The current draw is still 6mA for the whole circuit since the quiescent draw on the regulator is extremely low at 75μA.
The zener regulator version was about 25mA according to Howard and that could not handle high voltage.

So, the steps to do the mod:
  1. Omit R1 and and zener D1 (on the C5 position)
  2. Replace C1 with a minimum 1 μF tantalum, ceramic or aluminum electrolytic capacitor (at least 16 V)
  3. Put a wire from the R1 hole farthest from J1. Let it end near J1
  4. Put the LDO regulator in the J1 plus and ground holes WITH the connector wires. The need to share the holes.
  5. Solder output pin of regulator to the wire from R1 hole (look at pic)
If a new PCB layout is made I suggest there to be some new holes for the regulator. Should be possible up around J1 somewhere. Also a slighly larger pitch for C1 and an extra mounting hole for a standard low profile crystal. The cylindrical ones are near impossible to find. There is ample space already. I managed to squeeze a standard crystal into the holes that are, but it was a struggle.

Note: This is based on version 3 of the PCB layout.


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