8LikesTekin Servos
12-11-2017 | 02:28 PM
#31
It's no problem to question the utility of any item to you. It sounds like you don't need anything besides what Savox offers, so there's no reason for you to jump to something more expensive.
When you say no better than a Savox, I assume you are talking the specs listed for torque and speed? While they are probably the only way to vaguely compare servos between brands, there are so many other specifications that aren't listed. Response time, tolerance/play in the gears, case material, accuracy, and software all matter. The Tekin servos use better position sensors, are element/slash proof, and will be upgrade-able with future software updates.
Given that Tekin used solid aluminum cases, the best Tekin/Savox comparison is the $140 Savox servo. For a $10 difference, the Savox still lacks the ability to be updated with software, spin a full 360 degrees, have its center point be programmed at will, and uses a lower tolerance position sensor.
The better comparison would be Futaba's S.Bus2 servo line. They are crazy programmable (you can even plug them straight into their latest radio to program them) and have features through the roof. And most of them are $200+.
When you say no better than a Savox, I assume you are talking the specs listed for torque and speed? While they are probably the only way to vaguely compare servos between brands, there are so many other specifications that aren't listed. Response time, tolerance/play in the gears, case material, accuracy, and software all matter. The Tekin servos use better position sensors, are element/slash proof, and will be upgrade-able with future software updates.
Given that Tekin used solid aluminum cases, the best Tekin/Savox comparison is the $140 Savox servo. For a $10 difference, the Savox still lacks the ability to be updated with software, spin a full 360 degrees, have its center point be programmed at will, and uses a lower tolerance position sensor.
The better comparison would be Futaba's S.Bus2 servo line. They are crazy programmable (you can even plug them straight into their latest radio to program them) and have features through the roof. And most of them are $200+.
Second bolded part: Your going to base a savox to Tekin comparison on just the fact the Tekin has an all metal case? lulz. So should I compare 20 dollar ebay special servos to your 150 dollar Tekin? No way we should compare 2 servos based on specs, then compare pricing. /s
How about a legitimate comparison of the 1230SG to T-440? Both are very close in specs at 6v. The T-440 is rated for higher voltages, full metal case and has some cool software features, but its almost double the price.
My whole point is not to crap on Tekin stuff, I use their motors and ESC but how can they justify the insane cost when they dont really add any need to have it features. Your also going to have a mini - computer in your servo, so extra failure point and another item to program.
12-11-2017 | 05:52 PM
#32
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,719
From: At dirt tracks in Michigan!
First bolded part: When you make a statement like that, I'm going to need you to back it up. You cant say Tekin uses better materials without doing a component to component break down. I also dont see where Tekin List any of the things you mentioned as a selling point. No mention of response time, tolerance of gears and accuracy. The only thing mentioned on Tekin's website is the software defined features and case materiel. Can you actually prove Tekin uses better position sensors? Is it hall effect or is it a potentiometer, like all servoes use?
Second bolded part: Your going to base a savox to Tekin comparison on just the fact the Tekin has an all metal case? lulz. So should I compare 20 dollar ebay special servos to your 150 dollar Tekin? No way we should compare 2 servos based on specs, then compare pricing. /s
How about a legitimate comparison of the 1230SG to T-440? Both are very close in specs at 6v. The T-440 is rated for higher voltages, full metal case and has some cool software features, but its almost double the price.
My whole point is not to crap on Tekin stuff, I use their motors and ESC but how can they justify the insane cost when they dont really add any need to have it features. Your also going to have a mini - computer in your servo, so extra failure point and another item to program.
Second bolded part: Your going to base a savox to Tekin comparison on just the fact the Tekin has an all metal case? lulz. So should I compare 20 dollar ebay special servos to your 150 dollar Tekin? No way we should compare 2 servos based on specs, then compare pricing. /s
How about a legitimate comparison of the 1230SG to T-440? Both are very close in specs at 6v. The T-440 is rated for higher voltages, full metal case and has some cool software features, but its almost double the price.
My whole point is not to crap on Tekin stuff, I use their motors and ESC but how can they justify the insane cost when they dont really add any need to have it features. Your also going to have a mini - computer in your servo, so extra failure point and another item to program.
Ok, then ignore the aluminum case that many people prefer because plastic ears break/wear over time. Everything else stands. Specs are similar to their $99 servos but you still can update the software, spin a full 360 degrees, have its center point be programmed at will, uses a better position sensor, can run HV, and are backed by a 365 day warranty. I find value in those options on top of the aluminum case.
The Savox servo you listed has a larger form factor. Just saying.
12-11-2017 | 07:03 PM
#33
In the first bolded part, I was just listing additional factors for all servos that the speed and torque specs on the box don't show that have an affect on the quality and price. I never said the Tekin had better specs in all regards. I said Tekin was better than Savox when it came to the position sensor (listed as digital encoder in the specs. Savox uses a potentiometer which is inferior), are element/splash proof (listed right in the specs), and will have software updates (listed in specs). Everything I claimed was right in the specs.
Ok, then ignore the aluminum case that many people prefer because plastic ears break/wear over time. Everything else stands. Specs are similar to their $99 servos but you still can update the software, spin a full 360 degrees, have its center point be programmed at will, uses a better position sensor, can run HV, and are backed by a 365 day warranty. I find value in those options on top of the aluminum case.
The Savox servo you listed has a larger form factor. Just saying.
Ok, then ignore the aluminum case that many people prefer because plastic ears break/wear over time. Everything else stands. Specs are similar to their $99 servos but you still can update the software, spin a full 360 degrees, have its center point be programmed at will, uses a better position sensor, can run HV, and are backed by a 365 day warranty. I find value in those options on top of the aluminum case.
The Savox servo you listed has a larger form factor. Just saying.
Come on, you can come up with better selling points than a 365 day warranty. Every servo comes with that, and its only for manufacturer defects. All servo's from reputable company have that. I'm also pretty sure its industry standard to be element/splash proof for most higher end servos. I do like being able to program center, but how many servo's actually loose center?
Honest question, how many servos when properly installed have had the ears break off or wear out?
You stated
When you say no better than a Savox, I assume you are talking the specs listed for torque and speed? While they are probably the only way to vaguely compare servos between brands, there are so many other specifications that aren't listed. Response time, tolerance/play in the gears, case material, accuracy, and software all matter. The Tekin servos use better position sensors, are element/slash proof, and will be upgrade-able with future software updates.
FYI here is an example of a cheap servo that uses the same "superior" technology as Tekin's position sensors Cheap Servo
My whole point is not to crap on Tekin stuff, I use their motors and ESC but how can they justify the insane cost when they dont really add any need to have it features. Your also going to have a mini - computer in your servo, so extra failure point and another item to program.
Edit: I want to add, the only reason I keep using Savox is because its the servo's I use and are known to me.
Last edited by Darkgenerals; 12-11-2017 at 07:16 PM.
12-11-2017 | 08:55 PM
#35
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,719
From: At dirt tracks in Michigan!
I had to look up what Tekin is calling digital magnetic position encoder, Its a hall effect sensor(For any one wondering). I'm sure this is because Tekin decided to do 360 degree rotations, not because of some altruistic purpose.
A digital magnetic position encoder uses Hall effect sensors inside it, but that doesn’t guarantee accuracy. Brushless motors use Hall effect sensors and are accurate to 60 degrees for 2 pole motors. Tekin lists the encoder as accurate to 0.2 degrees on their website.
Come on, you can come up with better selling points than a 365 day warranty. Every servo comes with that, and its only for manufacturer defects. All servo's from reputable company have that. I'm also pretty sure its industry standard to be element/splash proof for most higher end servos. I do like being able to program center, but how many servo's actually loose center?
Congratulations. You latched onto the one thing I listed that is mostly standard for servos over $50.
Honest question, how many servos when properly installed have had the ears break off or wear out?
I had a set of Futaba BLS 451 servos that I loved. Used them for almost 8 years without issues in many cars. Ears failed, ending their run. Also had an Airtonics servo lose the ears after 3 years and a Hitec case gave out after a year. When I buy servos, I’m in for the long haul. Rock crawler, truggy, and monster truck servos are known to lose them as well. 10th scale buggy, probably not.
You stated I simply asked for you to prove these things. Specifically the bolded parts, which you state make the Tekin superior in some way.
Re-read your post. You asked how a servo with the same specs as a Savox could cost so much more. I listed variables that affect price (in general) and then highlighted 3 that were for sure better on the Tekin servos.
FYI here is an example of a cheap servo that uses the same "superior" technology as Tekin's position sensors Cheap Servo
Yep, it is superior technology to a potentiometer. That’s why that servo is $20 instead of $14 like this one: https://www.adafruit.com/product/1404
It added cost.
my original question still stands, everything you've told me is just marketing stuff. Can you even tell me the type of gears used in the T-440?
Your original question was why does it cost more than a similar Savox. I’ve taken the time and listed several things that you decided don’t matter to you. They matter to myself and others. As far as the type of gears, we’ve been told it has a high strength steel output shaft. That’s all that’s been released so far. Seeing how you can’t even back order them yet, we will just have to wait.
Edit: I want to add, the only reason I keep using Savox is because its the servo's I use and are known to me.
A digital magnetic position encoder uses Hall effect sensors inside it, but that doesn’t guarantee accuracy. Brushless motors use Hall effect sensors and are accurate to 60 degrees for 2 pole motors. Tekin lists the encoder as accurate to 0.2 degrees on their website.
Come on, you can come up with better selling points than a 365 day warranty. Every servo comes with that, and its only for manufacturer defects. All servo's from reputable company have that. I'm also pretty sure its industry standard to be element/splash proof for most higher end servos. I do like being able to program center, but how many servo's actually loose center?
Congratulations. You latched onto the one thing I listed that is mostly standard for servos over $50.
Honest question, how many servos when properly installed have had the ears break off or wear out?
I had a set of Futaba BLS 451 servos that I loved. Used them for almost 8 years without issues in many cars. Ears failed, ending their run. Also had an Airtonics servo lose the ears after 3 years and a Hitec case gave out after a year. When I buy servos, I’m in for the long haul. Rock crawler, truggy, and monster truck servos are known to lose them as well. 10th scale buggy, probably not.
You stated I simply asked for you to prove these things. Specifically the bolded parts, which you state make the Tekin superior in some way.
Re-read your post. You asked how a servo with the same specs as a Savox could cost so much more. I listed variables that affect price (in general) and then highlighted 3 that were for sure better on the Tekin servos.
FYI here is an example of a cheap servo that uses the same "superior" technology as Tekin's position sensors Cheap Servo
Yep, it is superior technology to a potentiometer. That’s why that servo is $20 instead of $14 like this one: https://www.adafruit.com/product/1404
It added cost.
my original question still stands, everything you've told me is just marketing stuff. Can you even tell me the type of gears used in the T-440?
Your original question was why does it cost more than a similar Savox. I’ve taken the time and listed several things that you decided don’t matter to you. They matter to myself and others. As far as the type of gears, we’ve been told it has a high strength steel output shaft. That’s all that’s been released so far. Seeing how you can’t even back order them yet, we will just have to wait.
Edit: I want to add, the only reason I keep using Savox is because its the servo's I use and are known to me.
I’ve owned 20+ different servo models from 6+ brands over 15 years. 6 Savox, 7 Futaba, 3 Hitec, 2 Airtronics, 2 Bluebird, 2 Ace, and several cheap brands among others. My favorite servos out of all of them were the BLS451 I mentioned above. Lasted forever, relatively speaking. The specs? At 4.8 volts: 0.13 seconds and 118 in-oz. Absolutely pathetic compared to what the others listed on the box. They were the absolute best on the track. I even ran them in 1/8 buggy with no issues on high voltage. I don’t put all my stock in the specs listed on the box. There is more that makes a servo feel accurate and connected on the track.
Currently I have a Savox servo in my 2wd and a Futaba S.Bus2 servo in my 4wd. The futaba is rated as slower for transit time, but I guarantee it has a lower latency and is more accurate because it feels better on the track and looks faster when playing with the servo on the workbench. I wish I could afford Futaba servos in all 4 of my cars, but I can’t. Additionally, I usually install my personal transponder on top of the servo. I had to move the one that was on the Savox because I was getting missed laps if I turned the steering wheel as I went over the timing loop. Stared right at the dB numbers coming from the encoder and they would drop if the servo was moving. No issue with the Futaba doing the exact same test. Both cars are identical otherwise.
Tekin servos appear to have all the top end electronics as the Futaba S.Bus servos, but for $70 less than the S9373SV. If that ends up not being the case, I’ll let the world know. To me, they are a bargain if what they claim for accuracy is true. I buy all my electronics for the long run. Heck, my RSX in the 2wd is closing in on 5 years old since I got it when they first came out.
12-11-2017 | 09:00 PM
#36
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,719
From: At dirt tracks in Michigan!
12-11-2017 | 10:40 PM
#38
Tekin, I've given you some shade before regarding the prices of some products but I am pleased with the current assumed pricing of these new servos 
I've only ever spent $110 at most for a servo but I'd be willing to throw a few extra bucks on the table to try one of these new units out.
I've only ever spent $110 at most for a servo but I'd be willing to throw a few extra bucks on the table to try one of these new units out.
12-12-2017 | 05:23 AM
#39
Again, some people complaining about $150 price tag comparing to savox. Guess what... My savox SB2284 (2 of them) and SB2283 are $140 servos. I didn't pay that for them but in comparison they are in the same price range. I am willing to try the Tekin low profile servo o my EB410. Looks like a very nice quality servo. If they make spare gear sets available that would be even better.
12-12-2017 | 08:19 AM
#40
A digital magnetic position encoder uses Hall effect sensors inside it, but that doesn’t guarantee accuracy. Brushless motors use Hall effect sensors and are accurate to 60 degrees for 2 pole motors. Tekin lists the encoder as accurate to 0.2 degrees on their website.
Yep, it is superior technology to a potentiometer. That’s why that servo is $20 instead of $14 like this one: https://www.adafruit.com/product/1404
It added cost.
It added cost.
Your original question was why does it cost more than a similar Savox. I’ve taken the time and listed several things that you decided don’t matter to you. They matter to myself and others. As far as the type of gears, we’ve been told it has a high strength steel output shaft. That’s all that’s been released so far. Seeing how you can’t even back order them yet, we will just have to wait.
its programmable (agreed)
aluminum case (agreed)
better gears (which I'm waiting for you to prove)
response time ( Again lets see some proof to this one)
Better position sensors ( not true)
I was just interested in what that means for this servo. ESC has a few more functions than a servo, can any of the servo's do data logging?
12-12-2017 | 08:25 AM
#41
Again, some people complaining about $150 price tag comparing to savox. Guess what... My savox SB2284 (2 of them) and SB2283 are $140 servos. I didn't pay that for them but in comparison they are in the same price range. I am willing to try the Tekin low profile servo o my EB410. Looks like a very nice quality servo. If they make spare gear sets available that would be even better.
Tekin's products are actually usefull and high quality but I like to ask questions.
Contrary to Krio's comment
It's no problem to question the utility of any item to you. It sounds like you don't need anything besides what Savox offers, so there's no reason for you to jump to something more expensive.
12-12-2017 | 09:44 AM
#42
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,719
From: At dirt tracks in Michigan!
My point is Tekin used that method because of the 360 degree rotation, its not superior technology for something like a servo. Check out this link where people way smarter than me discuss encoder vs potentiometer. To sum it up however, something like a savox 1256TG has better resolution per degree of movement than Tekin's encoder. You can even do the math, 4096 of resolution over 200 degrees of movement. Thats .0488 degree per 1 value on the potentiometer.
My point is they did not use it just for 360. It IS a superior technology that we will notice on the track.
I work with magnetic encoders and potentiometers weekly. I took multiple classes on feedback/control loops in school less than 2 years ago, and I program 3d printers in my spare time that use position sensors. They both have benefits and drawbacks, of which most aren't mentioned in that short thread. For RC, the magnetic encoder provides more accuracy. Resolution does not equal accuracy. I'll try to detail this below.
Even in that thread, someone posts this:
"Potentiometers are often less costly than encoders, but they can be more affected by the environment (vibration, water, etc)."
Potentiometers rely on physical contacts sweeping across wires to change the resistance (thus the voltage). The processor measures the voltage and uses that to determine position. Since the resistance properties of all matter changes with temperature, the measured position will change as well.
Lets do an example:
0 volts equals center. +6 volts is full left and equals 90 degrees. We will ignore left, but for reference purposes it is -6 volts and -90 degrees.
Lets say this happens at a temperature of 60 degrees.
If you told the servo to go to 45 degrees, it would turn the gears until it saw 3 volts coming back from the potentiometer. If it saw 3.1 volts, it knows it went too far. Now, you've ran your car for 20 minutes and the servo has warmed up to 70 degrees. Heat increases resistance, so in order to get a measurement of 3 volts (where the potentiometer "thinks" it is at 45 degrees) it actually has to travel to 47 degrees. Having many steps of resolution means the servo can be precise. However, you can be precise and not accurate.
Also, as the servo ages the potentiometer will continue to wear out since there is a physical contact that moves inside it. It's like a brushed motor and this will further affect the voltage measurement, causing a larger error in the accuracy of the servo. It still would have the same resolution, but the accuracy is what truly matters.
Magnetic encoders are contactless, just like brushless motors. They are no less accurate 10 years after using them than they were when new. If you buy servos and sell them 2 years later, you might not notice a difference due to wear between a potentiometer and an encoder (you will still have variations based on temperature and other factors). If you keep servos for a long time, you won't have any degradation in accuracy after using them for multiple years.
so lets sum that up.
its programmable (agreed)
aluminum case (agreed)
better gears (which I'm waiting for you to prove) Never claimed it was better. I listed it as something that affects price.
response time ( Again lets see some proof to this one)
Never claimed this. I listed it as something that affects price and isn't reflected in the speed spec.
Better position sensors ( not true)
See above why they are better.
I was just interested in what that means for this servo. ESC has a few more functions than a servo, can any of the servo's do data logging?
My point is they did not use it just for 360. It IS a superior technology that we will notice on the track.
I work with magnetic encoders and potentiometers weekly. I took multiple classes on feedback/control loops in school less than 2 years ago, and I program 3d printers in my spare time that use position sensors. They both have benefits and drawbacks, of which most aren't mentioned in that short thread. For RC, the magnetic encoder provides more accuracy. Resolution does not equal accuracy. I'll try to detail this below.
Even in that thread, someone posts this:
"Potentiometers are often less costly than encoders, but they can be more affected by the environment (vibration, water, etc)."
Potentiometers rely on physical contacts sweeping across wires to change the resistance (thus the voltage). The processor measures the voltage and uses that to determine position. Since the resistance properties of all matter changes with temperature, the measured position will change as well.
Lets do an example:
0 volts equals center. +6 volts is full left and equals 90 degrees. We will ignore left, but for reference purposes it is -6 volts and -90 degrees.
Lets say this happens at a temperature of 60 degrees.
If you told the servo to go to 45 degrees, it would turn the gears until it saw 3 volts coming back from the potentiometer. If it saw 3.1 volts, it knows it went too far. Now, you've ran your car for 20 minutes and the servo has warmed up to 70 degrees. Heat increases resistance, so in order to get a measurement of 3 volts (where the potentiometer "thinks" it is at 45 degrees) it actually has to travel to 47 degrees. Having many steps of resolution means the servo can be precise. However, you can be precise and not accurate.
Also, as the servo ages the potentiometer will continue to wear out since there is a physical contact that moves inside it. It's like a brushed motor and this will further affect the voltage measurement, causing a larger error in the accuracy of the servo. It still would have the same resolution, but the accuracy is what truly matters.
Magnetic encoders are contactless, just like brushless motors. They are no less accurate 10 years after using them than they were when new. If you buy servos and sell them 2 years later, you might not notice a difference due to wear between a potentiometer and an encoder (you will still have variations based on temperature and other factors). If you keep servos for a long time, you won't have any degradation in accuracy after using them for multiple years.
so lets sum that up.
its programmable (agreed)
aluminum case (agreed)
better gears (which I'm waiting for you to prove) Never claimed it was better. I listed it as something that affects price.
response time ( Again lets see some proof to this one)
Never claimed this. I listed it as something that affects price and isn't reflected in the speed spec.
Better position sensors ( not true)
See above why they are better.
I was just interested in what that means for this servo. ESC has a few more functions than a servo, can any of the servo's do data logging?
A limited/adjustable torque option. Say you have a steering rack that you are worried about breaking. You can set the maximum torque the servo will apply so that on crashes and hard impacts, the servo gives a bit to save the steering system. Or this could be used for nitro cars on the brakes to make them more linear feeling.
Adjustable stall parameters. Say the servo is unable to move to the position you are inputting on your radio because it is wedged under a pipe. If the servo can't reach the desired position after an adjustable amount of time, it could cut power to the motor to prevent damage.
Failsafe positions. Rather than relying on the receiver to demand a failsafe setting, the servo could have a backup default position to prevent nitro runaways.
A low power mode. Say the input voltage drops suddenly. You could program the servo to reduce power draw to avoid a receiver brownout.
12-12-2017 | 10:28 AM
#43
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,719
From: At dirt tracks in Michigan!
I'm just questioning why Tekin felt 150 was a good price point. Krio happened to be nice enough to answer that question for me. So far everything I've seen has been mostly marketing hype, if no one questioned these things than items are sold to unsuspecting people.
Tekin's products are actually usefull and high quality but I like to ask questions.
Contrary to Krio's comment I may actually purchase one.
Tekin's products are actually usefull and high quality but I like to ask questions.
Contrary to Krio's comment I may actually purchase one.
12-12-2017 | 10:43 AM
#44
There are servos that do data logging. I have no way to know if this is a feature at the moment for the Tekin servos. Here are some wild things I made up that could potentially be added later:
A limited/adjustable torque option. Say you have a steering rack that you are worried about breaking. You can set the maximum torque the servo will apply so that on crashes and hard impacts, the servo gives a bit to save the steering system. Or this could be used for nitro cars on the brakes to make them more linear feeling.
Adjustable stall parameters. Say the servo is unable to move to the position you are inputting on your radio because it is wedged under a pipe. If the servo can't reach the desired position after an adjustable amount of time, it could cut power to the motor to prevent damage.
Failsafe positions. Rather than relying on the receiver to demand a failsafe setting, the servo could have a backup default position to prevent nitro runaways.
A low power mode. Say the input voltage drops suddenly. You could program the servo to reduce power draw to avoid a receiver brownout.
A limited/adjustable torque option. Say you have a steering rack that you are worried about breaking. You can set the maximum torque the servo will apply so that on crashes and hard impacts, the servo gives a bit to save the steering system. Or this could be used for nitro cars on the brakes to make them more linear feeling.
Adjustable stall parameters. Say the servo is unable to move to the position you are inputting on your radio because it is wedged under a pipe. If the servo can't reach the desired position after an adjustable amount of time, it could cut power to the motor to prevent damage.
Failsafe positions. Rather than relying on the receiver to demand a failsafe setting, the servo could have a backup default position to prevent nitro runaways.
A low power mode. Say the input voltage drops suddenly. You could program the servo to reduce power draw to avoid a receiver brownout.
I actually had to re-read tekins website, your statement of
Tekin lists the encoder as accurate to 0.2 degrees on their website.
Precise linear movement through the entire motion range with less than .2 degrees of deviation from start point to end point
So I'm going to stick to my original point, we know Savox is 1 change in value per .0488 degree of movement. I would be interested to see what Tekin's is.
To your point resolution vs accuracy, resolution allows us to be more accurate to a certain point and come on, we both know Tekin and savox have some kind of temperature correction factor built into the Micro controller. Hall effect sensors are sensitive to changes in temperature as well.
I will concede after re-reading your statement you didnt claim Tekin had better gears and better response time, however you mentioned it would effect price, which was specifically what I was asking about. You kinda lead people to think the increase price tag over something like a savox could be because of those things. Thats a little misleading, along the same lines of drinking commercials. "Drink our beer and cool people want you".
Actually all of those features are already included in the servo, except the torque change on impact. That would be interesting to see in action, I would think some kind of accelometer and/or G-force meter would need to be used.
12-12-2017 | 10:43 AM
#45