Cyrul's Break in Procedures
04-27-2005, 04:39 PM
#1
Cyrul's Break in Procedures
I have some questions regarding Cyrul's break in procedures. I've number the steps and added some questions next to it. I hope you can clarify the steps much better.
At what temperature can I start the process?
For how long do you hold the throttle? The whole full tank?
When should I start opening the top end needle during the full throttle hold? At the beginning? At intervals? I don't want to flame out too early until all the fuel is used up.
Do I do step 3 as well again in this step?
Is this between tanks or after the 3rd tank?
So two more times after doing 3 tanks?
Isn't this the fifth tank?
So this is on tank 6,7, and 8?
1. Start your engine and allow it to warm up with several short ½ throttle “blips”.
2. Start by opening the top end needle 1 full turn and open the carburetor to full throttle and hold it there.
3. Open the top end needle until the engine flames out.
4. From here, close the top end needle ¼ turn and restart the engine again running it at full throttle.
5. Run the engine full throttle for 3 tanks and shut the engine down and allow the engine to cool for 15-30 minutes.
6. Once the engine has cooled down, run through the same process again for two additional tanks.
7. On the third tank close the top end needle by ¼ of a turn and Instead of holding the engine at full throttle, start using the throttle by doing 2-3 second bursts of full throttle.
8. Once you have done this for ½ of the tank close the top end needle another ¼ of a turn and continue throttling the engine. Continue closing the top end needle ¼ turn per every ½ tank of fuel. Do this until you have run a grand total of 8 tanks through your engine and then shut the engine down.
9. Allow the engine to cool for 15-30 minutes and then you are ready to hit the race track. Drive two tanks rich around the track slowly closing the top end needle sneaking up on that perfect mixture. At the end of the second tank your engine should be tuned to race speed.This will give you a total of 10 tanks of fuel through your engine before you really start to lean the mixture for ultimate power.
Last edited by revzalot; 04-28-2005 at 08:31 PM.
04-27-2005, 10:13 PM
#2
Wow. I had all the exact same questions when I read through that method. It was so hard to understand I said screw it.
04-28-2005, 05:48 AM
#3
Josh is the KING....follow his instruction....dont add anything...
1. exactly what is is says several blips. Just get some good warmth into it...say a ~30 sec..just feel it make sure its good and warm.
2. not the whole tank....go directly to step 3.
3. again...keep opening slowly (while you are at WOT) until you engine shuts off (called a flame out)...yes imeediately start doing this when you reach this step..does it say to wait? (See what I mean....just follow the instructions!! easy) Just open slowly...like a 1/8 of a turn every 1~2 sec....
4. NO...does it say to go back to step 3??? LOL
5. Just enough time to add more fuel and go again...
6. Yes another 3 tanks
7. actually last time I checked 3+3 = 6. so it would be the 6th tank!!!
8. odd...you math looks correct there!!! LOL
9. no questions and self explanatory.
OK so I hope you sensed the sarcasm there in some responses!! Just do not add anything or do not change anything. Assume nothing and just follow the instructions.
I am sure you are confused in part because there are a million different methods out there. Thsi one is spot ON. A great method and no need to buy an expensive bench.
Just make sure you have an extra glow plug as you might kill one running so rich.
remember with tuning and break in rely on your senses. Sight, sound and touch...dont worry so much about the temp guns etc...
Also follow Josh's tuning method...hell all of his advice is awsome.
This break in method is like a recipe. You will have consitency with all your break in procedures from here on in. Just make a print out and have it with you when you do it. Follow it EXACTLY.
It isnt complicated if we just follow exactly as it says....
John
1. exactly what is is says several blips. Just get some good warmth into it...say a ~30 sec..just feel it make sure its good and warm.
2. not the whole tank....go directly to step 3.
3. again...keep opening slowly (while you are at WOT) until you engine shuts off (called a flame out)...yes imeediately start doing this when you reach this step..does it say to wait? (See what I mean....just follow the instructions!! easy) Just open slowly...like a 1/8 of a turn every 1~2 sec....
4. NO...does it say to go back to step 3??? LOL
5. Just enough time to add more fuel and go again...
6. Yes another 3 tanks
7. actually last time I checked 3+3 = 6. so it would be the 6th tank!!!
8. odd...you math looks correct there!!! LOL
9. no questions and self explanatory.
OK so I hope you sensed the sarcasm there in some responses!! Just do not add anything or do not change anything. Assume nothing and just follow the instructions.
I am sure you are confused in part because there are a million different methods out there. Thsi one is spot ON. A great method and no need to buy an expensive bench.
Just make sure you have an extra glow plug as you might kill one running so rich.
remember with tuning and break in rely on your senses. Sight, sound and touch...dont worry so much about the temp guns etc...
Also follow Josh's tuning method...hell all of his advice is awsome.
This break in method is like a recipe. You will have consitency with all your break in procedures from here on in. Just make a print out and have it with you when you do it. Follow it EXACTLY.
It isnt complicated if we just follow exactly as it says....
John
04-28-2005, 12:12 PM
#5
Tech Fanatic
john,
one thing... you do not worry about temp when you break the engine in? if you break an engine in at too low of a temp, you will wear out your liner (sleeve) and loose compression. when the engine heats up, the liner (sleeve) expands. now if you do not heat the liner up enough, the liner will not expand enough and when the piston goes up through it, it will wear the liner. this causes loss of compression.
one thing... you do not worry about temp when you break the engine in? if you break an engine in at too low of a temp, you will wear out your liner (sleeve) and loose compression. when the engine heats up, the liner (sleeve) expands. now if you do not heat the liner up enough, the liner will not expand enough and when the piston goes up through it, it will wear the liner. this causes loss of compression.
04-28-2005, 12:54 PM
#6
Joe,
You are correct about wear at low temps however if Cyul's methods are used temp is a non isue. They are inline.
Low temps are a worry mainly with people who idle their engines as a break in method, or who start right away with the incar method and too rich...
Also the comment about temps was missunderstood by you. Do not get caught on 200...or 220...or 190. If its running right and its "in the ballpark" then leave it!!
Some motors like it hot....some like it cool. Just run it where it likes. Thats the point. I see too many people tuning the engine with the temp gun. Tune the engine for the conditions and use the temp gun as a refrence only. That was the point.
John
You are correct about wear at low temps however if Cyul's methods are used temp is a non isue. They are inline.
Low temps are a worry mainly with people who idle their engines as a break in method, or who start right away with the incar method and too rich...
Also the comment about temps was missunderstood by you. Do not get caught on 200...or 220...or 190. If its running right and its "in the ballpark" then leave it!!
Some motors like it hot....some like it cool. Just run it where it likes. Thats the point. I see too many people tuning the engine with the temp gun. Tune the engine for the conditions and use the temp gun as a refrence only. That was the point.
John
Last edited by jrabbito; 04-28-2005 at 01:01 PM.
04-28-2005, 04:50 PM
#8
Tech Rookie
Originally posted by jrabbito
[B]Josh is the KING....follow his instruction....dont add anything...
[B]Josh is the KING....follow his instruction....dont add anything...
I'm brand spankin' new and there were far too many words in that procedure. I work on my cars and am mechanically inclined, I need a picture and some short steps like you would see in a workshop manual.
Maybe our reading comprehension is not up to the same level. Regardless, two newbs can now understand it better because of the clarification. So sarcasm aside, thanks! I hope there's time tonight after work to run through the procedure with a friend and his new ATM.
Sunny
Last edited by JaguarXJ6; 04-28-2005 at 04:56 PM.
04-29-2005, 06:21 AM
#10
JaguarXJ6,
Anger Management classes might be offered for free by your local government. I suggest you take a look at them...
A sense of humour is something useful at times.....as for your reading comprehension....Dont think I ever stated anything in regards to that, and you weren't even in the original post?
Again a sense of humour buddy. As for the comment you pasted..Josh is an awsome guy. One of the best in the world without a doubt. He is more knowledgable than anyone I have actually spoken too.
His procedures are awsome. Sometimes we all have a pre-conceived notion as what to do. Be it from other experience or even past r/c, but if we follow it exactly and assume nothing his instruction are great.
If in the future you have questions with his instructions he actually answers them on his forum. www.cefx.net
I am sure that he would be more than happy to answer any questions you have there.
John
Anger Management classes might be offered for free by your local government. I suggest you take a look at them...
A sense of humour is something useful at times.....as for your reading comprehension....Dont think I ever stated anything in regards to that, and you weren't even in the original post?
Again a sense of humour buddy. As for the comment you pasted..Josh is an awsome guy. One of the best in the world without a doubt. He is more knowledgable than anyone I have actually spoken too.
His procedures are awsome. Sometimes we all have a pre-conceived notion as what to do. Be it from other experience or even past r/c, but if we follow it exactly and assume nothing his instruction are great.
If in the future you have questions with his instructions he actually answers them on his forum. www.cefx.net
I am sure that he would be more than happy to answer any questions you have there.
John
04-29-2005, 09:44 AM
#11
Tech Rookie
Hey, its all good! Don't read too much in my reply, I'm a hands on type of guy and your post was one of the first I read. Your help was appreciated.
Sunny
Sunny
04-29-2005, 10:13 AM
#12
A person that deals with fuels on another forum argued that temperature has nothing to do with an engine's life. Tune the engine by sight and sound.
For instance: this so called universal 240 degree temperature does not work on all engines.
I agree with him. If there is smoke and the engine runs fine, tunes fine, why would someone need a temp gun?
For instance: this so called universal 240 degree temperature does not work on all engines.
I agree with him. If there is smoke and the engine runs fine, tunes fine, why would someone need a temp gun?
Last edited by performula; 07-25-2006 at 07:13 AM.
04-29-2005, 10:51 AM
#14
revzalot,
The conrod replacement after breakin is interesting. I can agree with both sides of the fence, but the best bet is to check the conrod after every event.
That being said my experience is limited to Novarossi based engines. I haven't seen a need to change the conrod after breakin yet. The WOT ( wide open throttle ) technique also seems to be better for conrods...."seems".
An easy test for blatent wear is to open the back case and pour some after-run oil where the conrod connects to the crack and turn it over s-l-o-w-l-y. If you see "bubbles" then its time to change.
If you make it to a gallon of fuel and still see nothing then you can change for as a precaution.
If your a nut (in a positive way) and have accurate calipers you can take readings of the crank and conrod when new and go from there also.
I suggest a somewhat accurate logbook to document the usage you are putting on the engine. This will help with regular maintenence if you have more than one engine sharing the same fuel container.
You will hear a million different answers to the same question here. And most of them might even be correct. Just use the one that is the easiest and makes most sense to you.
I like Cyruls because its tried and tested by many people with no issues. To many people breaking in an engine at WOT seems a little...insane!! But in reality you are controling the maximum RPM with the fuel load...so it isnt a runaway screaming engine.
The one think that still makes me cringe is people who sit theor car on a starter box and let it idle...what a waste. That is the worst thing you can do to your new expensive motor..but hey its your $$$ and Cyruls advice is free...
If you ever get the chance to meet Cyrul (Go to the Toledo track at a big event) you will see he is a great guy...
All the best to you guys and good luck with the hobby.
John
The conrod replacement after breakin is interesting. I can agree with both sides of the fence, but the best bet is to check the conrod after every event.
That being said my experience is limited to Novarossi based engines. I haven't seen a need to change the conrod after breakin yet. The WOT ( wide open throttle ) technique also seems to be better for conrods...."seems".
An easy test for blatent wear is to open the back case and pour some after-run oil where the conrod connects to the crack and turn it over s-l-o-w-l-y. If you see "bubbles" then its time to change.
If you make it to a gallon of fuel and still see nothing then you can change for as a precaution.
If your a nut (in a positive way) and have accurate calipers you can take readings of the crank and conrod when new and go from there also.
I suggest a somewhat accurate logbook to document the usage you are putting on the engine. This will help with regular maintenence if you have more than one engine sharing the same fuel container.
You will hear a million different answers to the same question here. And most of them might even be correct. Just use the one that is the easiest and makes most sense to you.
I like Cyruls because its tried and tested by many people with no issues. To many people breaking in an engine at WOT seems a little...insane!! But in reality you are controling the maximum RPM with the fuel load...so it isnt a runaway screaming engine.
The one think that still makes me cringe is people who sit theor car on a starter box and let it idle...what a waste. That is the worst thing you can do to your new expensive motor..but hey its your $$$ and Cyruls advice is free...
If you ever get the chance to meet Cyrul (Go to the Toledo track at a big event) you will see he is a great guy...
All the best to you guys and good luck with the hobby.
John
05-01-2005, 06:40 PM
#15
Tech Master
iTrader: (1)
Hey guys, I find all the ??'s interesting and I will try to clarify anything I write in the future as much as possible so it's easier to understand. Writing the "tech" articles can be difficult as experience level as well as different lingo can make things tough to make 100% clear. I'm working on a bunch more but I guess I need to double check through them a bunch more!!!
performula - Remember another thing about temp - It is very easy to get lost. Just the head shape alone will make a huge difference - Example - When I raced for Serpent we ran the old Mega heads that had the circular fins as well as some straight fins on the top of the engine. The opening for the glow plug was also a lot smaller so the temps read around 200F and the engines were good. We recieved the new engines with the new heads and everyone tuned for 200F and the engines were rich, no power with no milage and immediatly everyone said they were terrible. The difference?? The newer heads had a bigger opening around the plug allowing the temp gun to sit 10-15mm closer to the glow plug and the temp range changed about 20-30 degrees. We leaned the new engines out to 230F and they were awesome. That's why it's important when you test a head that will "make your engine run 30 degrees cooler" that you base your engines temp off of the track performance - rich or leaner - for a tank before you adjust the needles. A taller head will always read a lower temp..... As far as metals and performance - it is still best to get optimum performance around 200-230F. Any hotter than that and it's hard for the materials to expand/contract without warping or destorting resulting in a loss of power.....
The change of conrod, while not always needed is a good practice (especially for the al. sleeved motors).
performula - Remember another thing about temp - It is very easy to get lost. Just the head shape alone will make a huge difference - Example - When I raced for Serpent we ran the old Mega heads that had the circular fins as well as some straight fins on the top of the engine. The opening for the glow plug was also a lot smaller so the temps read around 200F and the engines were good. We recieved the new engines with the new heads and everyone tuned for 200F and the engines were rich, no power with no milage and immediatly everyone said they were terrible. The difference?? The newer heads had a bigger opening around the plug allowing the temp gun to sit 10-15mm closer to the glow plug and the temp range changed about 20-30 degrees. We leaned the new engines out to 230F and they were awesome. That's why it's important when you test a head that will "make your engine run 30 degrees cooler" that you base your engines temp off of the track performance - rich or leaner - for a tank before you adjust the needles. A taller head will always read a lower temp..... As far as metals and performance - it is still best to get optimum performance around 200-230F. Any hotter than that and it's hard for the materials to expand/contract without warping or destorting resulting in a loss of power.....
The change of conrod, while not always needed is a good practice (especially for the al. sleeved motors).