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Old 07-19-2005, 09:11 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by fastharry
thats all well and good....but getting the engine to flame out..and then turning in 1/4 turn..and then running the WOT(..according to Josh's method)..does not yield temps in the 190 to 200 range.....

so maybe I should lean it out a tad..get the temp to 200..an then run it 3 tanks?....
This is what Rody Roem from RB Concept says for Break-In

Before you start to Break-in an engine on the bench, I suggest you cover the cooling-head with something, so the engine heats-up properly FOR ONE TANK at idle (without the cover the engine will stay too cold).

Then start the engine and let it run rich at full throttle with or without the cover (depending on temp):
2-tanks at about 80°C.
Then 2 more tanks at 90°C.
Then 1 more tank at 100°C.

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Old 07-19-2005, 09:30 AM   #32
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but thats using a break in bench........I'm gonna run it under load like Josh says on the box..WOT......his method does not give those temps on the first 3 tanks......

You think I should lean it till it hits those temps?..
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Old 07-19-2005, 10:10 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by fastharry
but thats using a break in bench........I'm gonna run it under load like Josh says on the box..WOT......his method does not give those temps on the first 3 tanks......

You think I should lean it till it hits those temps?..
FastHarry.

I've also used Josh's method with the engine on the car and on the starter box, and i also cover the cooling head with aluminum foil to get the engine up to temperature. If that doesn't work, than you can start thinking on leaning your HSN a bit.

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Old 07-19-2005, 11:05 AM   #34
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will do.....thanks......
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Old 07-19-2005, 12:28 PM   #35
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Ill have to admit thats a good solution afm. Keeps it at the rich setting and the temps up.

I kinda wish I did the WOT method on my latest d3r now. But my method was a combo of what was suggested by dino for the sts motors. He says to heat cycle the motor to 80C I believe several times. I kinda feel this is neccessary to relieve the initial tightness.

Rather than bust out at full throttle with it at its tightest point, which sounds like a bunch of un-needed stress.

I kinda like dinos method I guess you could say. Cause its just a couple of heat cycles with a specified higher temp, which isnt going to leave it too cold. Then you you swap over to 50-80% throttle blips , on off on off as he says. This to me sounds good and what Ive always done as your able to wait for a second to load in a little more fuel , then what I would figure on off blasts would do is churn up the gas a bit more , rather than send it straight through at high speed and always at the same pathway. With on/off blasts your at least getting some randomness and thats what I feel is needed, basically its your insurance policy.

This way your also not overloading it with gas and sending it through as fast as possible but to where theres so much it cant even get into correct rpms at least somewhat and your always just sitting there.

I also feel just a little to nervous with throttle planted at wot like that. Rather in the throttle blipping method you have a little more down time if needed and you can immediatly stop for a second or two let the car idle for a bit you can check temps , adjust the needle and so forth.

I also kinda like how OS says to change the range a little. Rather than keep it the same. This way it keeps building and building. It may work , but with the WOT method and no temp changes you might not have done it right then move on to the next method and you fly up to a whole new temp range a lot more metal will come out at once.

If you gradually change temps , then things will gradually change and your still blowing through lots of fuel , youll also be removing things one step at a time rather than all at once if things dont go right.

Its kind of like applying the same pressure all at once and keeping it there. It will work overtime. But are you sure its correct? Thats a lot to gamble on. With the blipping and gradual changes you know its coming out little by little.

Ive always believed in gradual temps, but the wot method also interests me. Ive always blipped my cars and they seem to last well. I think with the new heat cycling that I found out from dino and now see this being spoken about elsewhere it sounds good.

I just still want to idle it at first for a few cycles rather than shoot for WOT. The small amount of idling shouldnt do damage and will loosen up the motor enough to prepare it to go into the higher rpm and take wot or blipping.

But I do agree that letting it idle for quite a few tanks is also probably not a good idea. But who has really sat down and tested this fully? I mean im sure people might have observed or thought they observed more life from motors but who has actually tested this out and measured things? Id like to see some test data or something on this perhaps.

But then who will also be able to see what stress the motor has taken for what each method and if one method or the other might snap the con-rod later on because it was put under immediate stress or not.

Last edited by Artificial-I; 07-19-2005 at 09:37 PM.
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Old 07-19-2005, 05:51 PM   #36
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I use the WOT method also- only minor difference is that I lean it out till it will run at least 180F. I try to maintain 200F, but running WOT it just does not happen- covering the head or not. Using the method exactly as described on CEFX I can only get the engines to 140F. It only takes 1/2 turn or so leaner than Joshs' settings to get the temps up to 180+.

I've done three engines recently like this and they have the most compression of all my engines.

Use the WOT method- just keep the temps up.
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Old 07-19-2005, 06:14 PM   #37
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With the WOT method the engine doesn't rev too much since its almost 4 stroking.
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Old 07-19-2005, 10:29 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Artificial-I
Ill have to admit thats a good solution afm. Keeps it at the rich setting and the temps up.........................

But I do agree that letting it idle for quite a few tanks is also probably not a good idea. But who has really sat down and tested this fully? I mean im sure people might have observed or thought they observed more life from motors but who has actually tested this out and measured things? Id like to see some test data or something on this perhaps.

But then who will also be able to see what stress the motor has taken for what each method and if one method or the other might snap the con-rod later on because it was put under immediate stress or not.
All I can tell you is that on my D3R I followed STS's method (Dino's) exactly as described, cahnaged the conrod after break in, and it lasted me 2 1/2 gallons of Byron's of hard racing at 120ºC, before performance started to decrease. Nothing broke, I measured play in conrod's bushings after every race, and when play got beyond .05mm, I changed P/S kit, piston pin conrod and crank.
These new set I broke it in using a combination of methods. First tank with cool break in method on a bench runing and stoping every 2 minutes at idle, like STS recommends.
Second and third tank at WOT, very rich.
Next tanks on the car in the track up to complete 1 liter of Maxy's fuel.
Results.
This is the fastest STS engine I've had till now, I've won several races and it is going to start it's fourth galon of fuel. I've measured the engine after every race, and there are no signs of wear beyond limits, no power decrease and it runs 10ºC cooler than first set. Everybody asks me if i've done any mods to it, and answer is NO. It is a box stock D3R.
So, if that answers your question as to a measured and compared performance of methods over the same engine..... the answer is obvious...this last method is far superior than factory suggested method. The reason why the factory suggets their method is because it is a safer method that any common driver without experience can do. WOT method requires a break-in-bench, and more edxperience with engine know how and carburation, etcetc., because if not it can cost you an engine.

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Old 07-20-2005, 01:33 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afm
These new set I broke it in using a combination of methods. First tank with cool break in method on a bench runing and stoping every 2 minutes at idle, like STS recommends.
Second and third tank at WOT, very rich.
Next tanks on the car in the track up to complete 1 liter of Maxy's fuel.
Results.
This is the fastest STS engine I've had till now, I've won several races and it is going to start it's fourth galon of fuel. I've measured the engine after every race, and there are no signs of wear beyond limits, no power decrease and it runs 10ºC cooler than first set. Everybody asks me if i've done any mods to it, and answer is NO. It is a box stock D3R.
So, if that answers your question as to a measured and compared performance of methods over the same engine..... the answer is obvious...this last method is far superior than factory suggested method.
I once had a NovaMega EVO2 engine, not modified, but it was even faster then several EVO5 engines out there.
Don't forget that you can also be lucky with a piston and sleeve set you buy....

Factory drivers will get hand selected P/S sets, just like the one You and I probably bought.......

For the described break-in procedures, I think at the end, they all are good.......
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Old 07-20-2005, 02:17 AM   #40
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2. Start by opening the top end needle 1 full turn and open the carburetor to full throttle and hold it there.
My question is the following:
From where do I start opening the needle 1 full turn, from the factory settings?
Dumb question but I had to ask. I am getting a new OS TZ .12 and probably gonna break it in using Josh's method, I don't wanna have any question in my mind.
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Old 07-20-2005, 02:38 AM   #41
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Yes, from the factory setting.....
The engine should then be rich enough to not over rev when you open the throttle, then open it even further until it flames out.....
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Old 07-20-2005, 05:32 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afm
All I can tell you is that on my D3R I followed STS's method (Dino's) exactly as described, cahnaged the conrod after break in, and it lasted me 2 1/2 gallons of Byron's of hard racing at 120ºC, before performance started to decrease. Nothing broke, I measured play in conrod's bushings after every race, and when play got beyond .05mm, I changed P/S kit, piston pin conrod and crank.
These new set I broke it in using a combination of methods. First tank with cool break in method on a bench runing and stoping every 2 minutes at idle, like STS recommends.
Second and third tank at WOT, very rich.
Next tanks on the car in the track up to complete 1 liter of Maxy's fuel.
Results.
This is the fastest STS engine I've had till now, I've won several races and it is going to start it's fourth galon of fuel. I've measured the engine after every race, and there are no signs of wear beyond limits, no power decrease and it runs 10ºC cooler than first set. Everybody asks me if i've done any mods to it, and answer is NO. It is a box stock D3R.
So, if that answers your question as to a measured and compared performance of methods over the same engine..... the answer is obvious...this last method is far superior than factory suggested method. The reason why the factory suggets their method is because it is a safer method that any common driver without experience can do. WOT method requires a break-in-bench, and more edxperience with engine know how and carburation, etcetc., because if not it can cost you an engine.

AFM
Coming from you and that you did try two different methods just recently and right in a row. That is some good info.

I will try the same on my next ps set for the d3r. I guess if I notice the same I dont really need much more proof.

I wonder if dino has broken in his motors like this before.

Last edited by Artificial-I; 07-20-2005 at 10:13 AM.
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Old 07-20-2005, 05:44 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdelong
I use the WOT method also- only minor difference is that I lean it out till it will run at least 180F. I try to maintain 200F, but running WOT it just does not happen- covering the head or not. Using the method exactly as described on CEFX I can only get the engines to 140F. It only takes 1/2 turn or so leaner than Joshs' settings to get the temps up to 180+.

I've done three engines recently like this and they have the most compression of all my engines.

Use the WOT method- just keep the temps up.
I went last night to race..and break in the motor......and followed Josh's instructions exactly....covered the head with foil ..and at even 1/2 turn in,couldn't get the temp over 130....so I ran with it...by the sixth tank,when he tell you to start the 1/4 turn every thank,throttle fot 2-3 seconds,the engine started reaching the 200 range.....I did let it cool when he said....and aslo between the 7th and 8th tank......

I did a few tanks around the track..but it was really humid last night in NJ..and when I started to lean it out,the temps were hitting 270..(still plenty of smoke)......and it lean bogged on the straight one time....so I shut it down and will wait for another day......but the engine idles like a champ....no bog on take off....and I can see it is already faster than the #410 std v12it replaced.....

Time will tell how long it runs for...and I'd like to see it have more power ot 230 degrees........I broke in my last v12 like RODY said to..driving the car rich.........and that method was great.........Josh's is just faster and less space restraining....

but I would love if josh came on and commented on the low temps during the first 5 tanks.....
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Old 07-20-2005, 06:50 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afm
All I can tell you is that on my D3R I followed STS's method (Dino's) exactly as described, cahnaged the conrod after break in, and it lasted me 2 1/2 gallons of Byron's of hard racing at 120ºC, before performance started to decrease. Nothing broke, I measured play in conrod's bushings after every race, and when play got beyond .05mm, I changed P/S kit, piston pin conrod and crank.
These new set I broke it in using a combination of methods. First tank with cool break in method on a bench runing and stoping every 2 minutes at idle, like STS recommends.
Second and third tank at WOT, very rich.
Next tanks on the car in the track up to complete 1 liter of Maxy's fuel.
Results.
This is the fastest STS engine I've had till now, I've won several races and it is going to start it's fourth galon of fuel. I've measured the engine after every race, and there are no signs of wear beyond limits, no power decrease and it runs 10ºC cooler than first set. Everybody asks me if i've done any mods to it, and answer is NO. It is a box stock D3R.
So, if that answers your question as to a measured and compared performance of methods over the same engine..... the answer is obvious...this last method is far superior than factory suggested method. The reason why the factory suggets their method is because it is a safer method that any common driver without experience can do. WOT method requires a break-in-bench, and more edxperience with engine know how and carburation, etcetc., because if not it can cost you an engine.

AFM
hi AFM,
i am a little confused... maybe i missed something somewhere. i thought you said that breaking in the engine at idle would do more harm than good to your engine. but then on this post you said with the second p/s set, you ran the engine rich at idle for a couple tanks. i must have missed something, can you please explain that?
thanks in advance.
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Old 07-20-2005, 10:57 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joemugen
hi AFM,
i am a little confused... maybe i missed something somewhere. i thought you said that breaking in the engine at idle would do more harm than good to your engine. but then on this post you said with the second p/s set, you ran the engine rich at idle for a couple tanks. i must have missed something, can you please explain that?
thanks in advance.
The article I posted on WOT break-in is not mine, as I said there, it is Dave Gierke's article published in Nitro Magazine. So I used a combination of methods in my second P/S set.

First i did One Tank on the break-in bench, as per STS's method:
First tank of fuel: Start your engine, idle for 2 minutes then stop and let it cool down. Whenever you stop the motor please ensure, by rotating the flywheel by hand (careful it can be hot), that the piston is NOT at Top Dead Center (TDC), let it cool. Repeat the "start-idle cycle" until you finish one tank of fuel. If idle rpm is too high, adjust the slow needle. Make sure the temperature is under 80C (176F), it is good if some raw fuel is spitting from the exhaust.

Note: This way we call it cold run in. The piston expands when hot and shrinks when cold. This way we let the piston adapt to changes of temperature and also let the piston get tempered and get the correct clearances. If you do the "start-idle cycle", you will find the engine is more easy to break-in.
All engines need to warm up a while after started. One is for heat expansion and another reason is for lubrication. So don't full throttle the engine when it is still cold...
So also, I usually let my engine idle for a while if I have opened it. All parts need to run-in for a while, including conrod, bearings, crank...etc. So if I change any part I will let it idle for a while too. One is for heat expansion and another reason is for lubrication. So don't full throttle the engine when it is still cold...

Second and third tank on the break-in bench, at WOT very rich, as per Gierkes or Cyrul's method
Next tanks on the car, in the track, up to complete 1 liter of Maxy's fuel.

Hope it is clear now

AFM
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