Arrow Racing GTR .21 Engine Thread
04-28-2011 | 05:55 PM
#138
Well I started breaking in mines a couple of days ago and install a 2060 pipe. Installed the extra shim to help with the break in, left the needles where they were for the first couple of tanks. Now I'm almost a full turn and a half on the top and the motor is running great, runs pretty cool 220. I'm gonna leave the needles there for now as the pinch is stupid tight on this motor, the otor probably won't drop its nuts till after 3 gallons, will keep yall posted.
04-28-2011 | 08:33 PM
#139
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,660
At the end of the day morally we all have to decide how we want to conduct our business. People always seem to fall back on the OS/Mugen example etc. forgetting that the difference is that Mugen contacted OS and had them develop an alternative version of and existing engine for them which they purchased from OS, the company that designed and developed the original engine. This is again completely different than a company in Taiwan copying someones engine design, producing it their self and putting their own name on it.
The fact that this may or may not happen with cars or tires all the time still does not make the behavior any more palatable. Nor I should say should it make it any more acceptable to those of us in the industry with companies that invest our time and money in the development of our products. I've watched what you have done over the years with the development of your dyno etc. and this has taken time, money and a lot of effort, something that I feel you should be congratulated for. I also have spoken in the past to some of the mag people you were involved with and they indicated to me that you also sold some of them (and I was also thinking about buying one a couple of years ago). If a company in asia copied your dyno and sold it for 1/2 the price and called it the Y-Dyno I would be sitting here saying the same thing about how that is not correct and have the exact same mentality about defending your product. Now if the Y-dyno was a proprietary design and something developed in house by those people or you licensed your design to them, well that would be a totally different thing.
The bottom line is that whether we realize it or not providing any type of support to these type of companies and their products legitimizes their actions. Something that morally I think that we should have an obligation not to do. At the end of the day a fake OS engine is still a fake OS engine. Just like a fake Rolex is still a fake Rolex and a fake Mona Lisa painting is still a fake Mona Lisa painting no matter what type of spin we put on it.
On a side note also I'm not attacking you, I was just voicing my feelings on this. As mentioned I've watched the stuff that you have done over the years and although I've never spoken with you in person I have a lot of respect for what you have done including in my opinion developing the first legitimate dyno system for micro-engines. You are a prime example of the fact that if you have an idea and are willing to put a lot of effort, time and dedication into it you can pretty much accomplish whatever you want. I said I was disappointed because to me companies like the one we are now discussing represent the exact opposite of that mentality, spend zero time, effort or dedication just buy one of the better items that you can find and copy it. Is this really something that we should be supporting even if in the end the product works?
The fact that this may or may not happen with cars or tires all the time still does not make the behavior any more palatable. Nor I should say should it make it any more acceptable to those of us in the industry with companies that invest our time and money in the development of our products. I've watched what you have done over the years with the development of your dyno etc. and this has taken time, money and a lot of effort, something that I feel you should be congratulated for. I also have spoken in the past to some of the mag people you were involved with and they indicated to me that you also sold some of them (and I was also thinking about buying one a couple of years ago). If a company in asia copied your dyno and sold it for 1/2 the price and called it the Y-Dyno I would be sitting here saying the same thing about how that is not correct and have the exact same mentality about defending your product. Now if the Y-dyno was a proprietary design and something developed in house by those people or you licensed your design to them, well that would be a totally different thing.
The bottom line is that whether we realize it or not providing any type of support to these type of companies and their products legitimizes their actions. Something that morally I think that we should have an obligation not to do. At the end of the day a fake OS engine is still a fake OS engine. Just like a fake Rolex is still a fake Rolex and a fake Mona Lisa painting is still a fake Mona Lisa painting no matter what type of spin we put on it.
On a side note also I'm not attacking you, I was just voicing my feelings on this. As mentioned I've watched the stuff that you have done over the years and although I've never spoken with you in person I have a lot of respect for what you have done including in my opinion developing the first legitimate dyno system for micro-engines. You are a prime example of the fact that if you have an idea and are willing to put a lot of effort, time and dedication into it you can pretty much accomplish whatever you want. I said I was disappointed because to me companies like the one we are now discussing represent the exact opposite of that mentality, spend zero time, effort or dedication just buy one of the better items that you can find and copy it. Is this really something that we should be supporting even if in the end the product works?
I know this is way off and was written a long time ago. But it can't be ignored. Agree 100%
04-29-2011 | 08:59 AM
#140
Well I started breaking in mines a couple of days ago and install a 2060 pipe. Installed the extra shim to help with the break in, left the needles where they were for the first couple of tanks. Now I'm almost a full turn and a half on the top and the motor is running great, runs pretty cool 220. I'm gonna leave the needles there for now as the pinch is stupid tight on this motor, the otor probably won't drop its nuts till after 3 gallons, will keep yall posted.
04-29-2011 | 11:10 AM
#142
Tech Rookie
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 8
From: Hampshire, UK
04-29-2011 | 01:04 PM
#143
The base settings are needles flush, that's where I started for breakin, very fat lots of smoke and I run 25% nitro. I leaned the bottom a bit to keep it from flaming as the pinch is ridiculous. I worked the HSN only and after 12 tanks I'm about 2mm below flush and still have good smoke and speed not race tune yet. Motor has a very smooth power curve and with a 2060 pipe not very loud. I'm gonna run this at the Pro Series next week and keep you guys posted, so far I'm very impressed with the mill. BTW the carb is very accurate and consistant.
04-29-2011 | 01:20 PM
#144
This engine is very smooth. Pinch is alot more than a VSpec but nowhere near as bad as an Alpha. I ran mine with a 2050 at Rd 2 of the RC Pro National Series and was suprized. Im up to 2 gals on mine with no mechanical pinch but still more compression than a VSpec at the same point. The 2050 was extremely smooth but was alot more fuel thirsty than the 2060. Overall I think it will be a great engine and should out last the VSpecs and day of the week.
04-29-2011 | 01:25 PM
#145
I use a heat cycle method on all my engines. I'll run 2 tanks on the box. The first tank I try to maintain between 180-200*. The second tank I will go up to around 220* max. Everything after that is on the ground running. I will fluctuate the temps between 180-220 throughout the next 8 or 10 tanks all depending on how much mechanical pinch there is. I usually try to put 1 1/2 to 2 "easy" gallons on an engine before setting a hard race tune.
05-01-2011 | 01:38 PM
#146
Tech Addict
iTrader: (13)
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 702
GTR.21
OK here's our latest with the new motor, and I'll give as much details so nobody blows it out of porportion.
We have 3/4 gallons (Byron's 30%) on the motor, still not completely loosened up but close, also till running the breakin shim, we run a losi 2.0 with titium turn buckles, and screws, 47 th spur gear, 13 th bell, 6m carb restricter, 9901 pipe,and 41021 header, Impact soft tires, we ran at the Nitro Pit which is where the Challenge was, and same layout, medium bit, rough ,out door track,
after both 7 min qual's we had about 1/4 tank left, end of qual temp was 210 both rounds,
weather was really windy, and probably 60's
plenty of power, not too punchy, but fairly smooth,
my son's driving style is smooth and consistent, won both qual rnds and set TQ, but set screw on cv came loose on 2nd lap of main, and we called it quits.
Overall a great motor, run time I can't say until its completly loosend up, but has plenty of power and run time, and yes, I'd by another one
We have 3/4 gallons (Byron's 30%) on the motor, still not completely loosened up but close, also till running the breakin shim, we run a losi 2.0 with titium turn buckles, and screws, 47 th spur gear, 13 th bell, 6m carb restricter, 9901 pipe,and 41021 header, Impact soft tires, we ran at the Nitro Pit which is where the Challenge was, and same layout, medium bit, rough ,out door track,
after both 7 min qual's we had about 1/4 tank left, end of qual temp was 210 both rounds,
weather was really windy, and probably 60's
plenty of power, not too punchy, but fairly smooth,
my son's driving style is smooth and consistent, won both qual rnds and set TQ, but set screw on cv came loose on 2nd lap of main, and we called it quits.
Overall a great motor, run time I can't say until its completly loosend up, but has plenty of power and run time, and yes, I'd by another one
05-02-2011 | 06:35 AM
#147
OK here's our latest with the new motor, and I'll give as much details so nobody blows it out of porportion.
We have 3/4 gallons (Byron's 30%) on the motor, still not completely loosened up but close, also till running the breakin shim, we run a losi 2.0 with titium turn buckles, and screws, 47 th spur gear, 13 th bell, 6m carb restricter, 9901 pipe,and 41021 header, Impact soft tires, we ran at the Nitro Pit which is where the Challenge was, and same layout, medium bit, rough ,out door track,
after both 7 min qual's we had about 1/4 tank left, end of qual temp was 210 both rounds,
weather was really windy, and probably 60's
plenty of power, not too punchy, but fairly smooth,
my son's driving style is smooth and consistent, won both qual rnds and set TQ, but set screw on cv came loose on 2nd lap of main, and we called it quits.
Overall a great motor, run time I can't say until its completly loosend up, but has plenty of power and run time, and yes, I'd by another one
We have 3/4 gallons (Byron's 30%) on the motor, still not completely loosened up but close, also till running the breakin shim, we run a losi 2.0 with titium turn buckles, and screws, 47 th spur gear, 13 th bell, 6m carb restricter, 9901 pipe,and 41021 header, Impact soft tires, we ran at the Nitro Pit which is where the Challenge was, and same layout, medium bit, rough ,out door track,
after both 7 min qual's we had about 1/4 tank left, end of qual temp was 210 both rounds,
weather was really windy, and probably 60's
plenty of power, not too punchy, but fairly smooth,
my son's driving style is smooth and consistent, won both qual rnds and set TQ, but set screw on cv came loose on 2nd lap of main, and we called it quits.
Overall a great motor, run time I can't say until its completly loosend up, but has plenty of power and run time, and yes, I'd by another one
so when is it a good time to remove the break-in shim? and what carb restrictor were you using?
05-02-2011 | 06:40 AM
#148
Once the mechanical pinch is gone is a safe time to remove the shim. Mine was never installed to begin with but at approx 1 gallon I removed the thickest of the 2 installed shim. This incresed the compression thus increasing run time and performance. I didn't see the need to install the extra shim because there isn't enough pinch to warrant it IMO. I'm also down to a 7mm restrictor but thinking of going down to a 6.5mm.
05-03-2011 | 01:14 PM
#150
ok thanks guys. I just ordered mine today. I thnk I will install the shim and then remove it after break-in. just to be on the safe side. I might have to try removing the thicker of the 2 shims as well....is alot of ppl doing this? the engine should be ok with leaving it in right?