Vintageguy

iTrader: (63)

There is dirt and debris collected on and around the carb boot.

Werks

iTrader: (3)

Please do not take this the wrong way but you are not understanding what you are doing. The reason that Byron's may have run cooler is because the viscosity of their fuel (just like that of every fuel) is different, so as you never adjusted the needles what is happening is you are getting more fuel flowing though the orifice (opening setting) that you had the carburetor set at. This means only one thing, which if your engine is indeed running cooler that is that your engine is now richer. The only way to compare performance and run time of fuels is to adjust your engine for optimum performance with one fuel, run it and get out the stop watch. Then switch fuels, re-tune for optimum performance and get out the stop watch again. Then compare your thoughts on engine performance and the actual run time numbers.

Having said that though your engine is set way, way too lean both when you were running up and down the street with our fuel in the earlier video where the temps that I saw was 190F & 198F as well as in this video with Byrons here https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LYcCCURfCwc where the temps that I can see in it are 202F with a max looks like 208F (so actually hotter with the Byrons, not cooler like you mentioned). One of the characteristics of Byrons is that it does smoke more than our fuel but again at 198-208f (not caring about fuel now) with virtually no load on the engine because you are running on asphalt means you will probably be in the 280-300F range when you put the car on a track, again way, way too lean. I’m going to assume that normal operating temp range for a properly tuned Red’s engine is probably in the 220-240f range on track (similar to other motors) and if that is indeed the case you should be around the low 160f range running the car on the street to be around the 220-240 range on track!



I would not necessarily say that. The speckles and what appears to be a band of actaul pitting in the metal that you can now see running from left to right across roughly the center 1/2 of the piston are signes of detonation and you are basically blasting carbon deposits off of your piston top. This again comes from your engine being set too lean and if you do not address the tune is going to result in damage to your engine.

Now even beyond that can you please comment on the coking comment that Maximo made which seems to have been ignored, were you pre-heating the engine? I'll post this here and in the Werks Fuel thread where you also posted so please feel free to answer in either thread.

rotor head33

iTrader: (11)

So I retuned the motor. Ran the byrons for another two tanks. With a stop watch and temp gauge I retained the 186-188 degrees throughout the two tanks and ran for 45 seconds longer compared to your fuel. I'm not here to get into a pissing contest I'm simply here to state that in the end, changing fuel solved my issues. There is no putting in the piston sleeve. After two tanks here is the top end. Piston is at the exact same position in the sleeve. Sorry werks.

Werks

iTrader: (3)

Do you consider someone being concerned about a person saying something is wrong with their product and trying to help work through whatever that problem may be getting into a "pissing match"?

From the earlier pictures that you posted it looked like there was pitting, hence my mention. The temperature numbers that i mentioned came driectly from your video, no where else. Those comment about being too lean if you are going to be putting the car on the track are honest and truthful. It's simply something that i have learned over the years, you will see a considerable increase in temp due to the increased load on the engine when you run in the dirt on a track, it's just a fact and even at 185F you are still abotu 20f too lean. I'm not saying that to hurt you, I'm saying that to help you.

You have also never addressed maximo's or my question if you had used a pre-heater on the engine and left it on there for a while which could have caused the issue you experienced.

As far as what yonu just poested in regards to temp and times again if you want to compare fuels to see which offers supperior run time, tune to maximum performance, run a tank, check time. Dump out old fuel, re-tune for new fuel, runa tank and check time. Beyond that why don't you try this. Dump out the byrons, fill your tank with our fuel, run it and then post a picture. I would be really, really curious to see what we will see.

On a side note as I posted in our fuel thread here is a picture of Kortz current race engine after 4+ gallons of fuel from our latest production run which is currently in stores and this includes a WOT run away. As you can see no strange deposits, and no strange particles all over the place like in your earlier pictures.

rotor head33

iTrader: (11)

I did answer Maximo's question in your fuel thread.

Werks

iTrader: (3)

Yes I just noticed that you confirmed that you used an engine heater, so what Maximo mentioned might have been possible. Having said that though it's too hard to follow things bouncing from thread to thread. As right now this is about fuel if it's ok with you let's please move this over to our thread, anyone that wants to follow the discussion can look there. Once we get everything resolved in whatever way then you may want to come back over here and do a follow up post just to bring everyone up to speed on whatever the outcome was.

bretto107

Werks fuel and Reds motors are not a good combination unless you add 3-4% of carstor oil. If you run werks without the added oil you will be lucky to make 20 litres. I have spoken to a Reds factory drive that uses werks and that is what he told me.

Gavel

iTrader: (6)

It already has caster oil in it, why do reds need more oil then anyone else? or did he not go into specifics

Werks

iTrader: (3)

And so it starts, first off all nothing mentioned above has anything to do with engine longevity with our fuel, I believe it has everything to do with what Maximo menetioned about basically pre-heating the engine for too long which we will find out soon. Secondly would you mind sharing with us exactly who that Red's factory driver supposedly is?

Also I belive it's pretty common knowledge that Red's engines are made by Picco......... While you may not care to hear this we developed our fuel back when we were the US importer for Picco engines lol. Later when we went on to produce our own engines we released 2 different lines one of which was also made by Picco so to say that I'm pretty familair with the product that their factory puts out would be putting it mildly In a nutshell our fuel was pretty much developed on the same basic building block as the current engines from that factory as far as basic engine design and metalurgy are concerned.

So if there is any issue with engine longevity that may be in question it lies not with the fuel but probably lies with either manufacturing tolerances or it may be some issue know to the factory and driver i.e. (and this is purely speculation on my part based on what you are stating) possibly as an example whoever that driver is that you mentioned in Australia may have to run his engines very lean in order to be competitive. Also we do not have any paid factory drivers other than Kortz. So it should be completely logical to anyone with any common sense that no factory driver from any brand of engines is going to a) be allowed to or b) want to use a fuel that is going to be detrimental to the performance or longevity of their engines for nothing! Why would they??? If they were getting paid I could see it possibly, for free it makes no sense at all to me (and I would think anyone else). At best that driver would be getting free fuel and I have to assume that just about every fuel brand available in Australia would be tripping over each others feet to be first in line to be able to get a factory level driver to run their product for just free fuel lol. So why decide/choose to run something that supposedly wears out their engines

Werks

iTrader: (3)

Assuming what was said is true, that is the million dollar question isn't it....

bretto107

He is a Factory Reds driver, not factory werks. You can put it anyway you want, but if you really care to get to the bottom of this, message him and here it from him.
I f-cked a Reds motor by running this fuel in less than 20 litres. I think people buying a Reds should no this.
I am not saying it is a bad fuel, as i no many people use it running other engines with great success. But as it is, it is not good for Reds motors.

bretto107

He didnt get into specifics,but told me that he adds 3-4 ml of castor as instructed by Reds.

Gavel

iTrader: (6)

3-4ml of caster in nearly 4 litres? is that even going to do anything?

bretto107

Sorry, he adds 3-4% more oil. He use's one of those measuring cups you get with medicine.

Werks

iTrader: (3)

I'm trying to do nothing but to get clear what you are telling me. So if I have things correct this time, the driver is a sponsored factory Reds driver but he does not drive for us? If that is the case then it makes even less sense to me why he would keep on using our fuel if it wears out his engines? As far as messaging him and finding out from him, I'd be more than happy to but in order to do that I need to know who he is and I've already asked you for his name once.

If you are in Australia our importer for fuel just came on board last year, so we have only moved one container of fuel to them so far, all from the same production run I might add. So if as you put it you "f-cked a Reds motor by running our fuel in less than 20 liters" (which for the US people is about 5 gal) when you know many people in Australia are running that same fuel in other engines with “great success” then I would think you should be asking yourself (and them) what the difference is between engines from the other manufacturers and the Reds engine that you ran is that made your engine wear out so quickly? If that driver is indeed adding 3-4% caster oil to our fuel it is putting the total amount of caster in the fuel up to a level equal to if not above stuff like Traxxas fuel which is intended for RTR's and well above that of what is found in fuels like Byron’s and any other racing fuel that I know of! To blame it on the fuel is the easy out. People have an engine problem and it always seems to be either "I must have an air leak" or "it must be a bad batch of fuel" lol! But if you know our fuel works just fine in other engines as you said it can’t be a bad batch so how can you really blame it on the fuel????

Again the million dollar question.

Let me propose an alternative scenario for you to give some thought to. Being involved in the manufacturing of these engines I know that something as simple as being off on machine calibration even a fraction of a mm can impact finished parts fit greatly. So if that happened with either machining of the piston or sleeve it could easily affect the piston/sleeve fit sufficiently to result in an engine wearing out prematurely. So while it may sound sacrilegious to say this, have you possibly considered that instead of a fuel issue there might be an engine issue? Could it be that whoever the Reds importer in Australia is possibly received a bad batch of engines??? Have you considered that this "factory" Reds driver that told you this and is not a "factory" Werks driver is choosing to continue using our fuel (again without compensation from us) and adding oil to it instead of just switching to another brand of fuel because he knows it would not make a difference to longevity as the issue is not fuel related but rather engine related? Why else would he choose to continue to use a brand of fuel that is "supposedly" wearing out his engines prematurely when he is not being paid by us and on top of that why would he be allowed to do so by the Reds importer and the factory?

Have you considered that maybe that Reds factory driver is adding extra oil to his fuel in an attempt to make his engines last longer and it is easier for him to do that and come up with this story rather than to actually tell you that there is a problem with your engine and the engines he got from his sponsor? Have you ever actually heard a factory driver admit and/or tell a person that there was something wrong with a product from a company that they are sponsored by? I know I haven’t lol. Or at the end of the day does it seem more logical to think that our fuel, the exact same fuel that you your self stated you know “runs just fine” in other brands of engines there only has problems with Reds engines that are run in Australia???