ROAR goes to 4cell... What will tracks do?
 

local tracks are at the demand of their customers. it it obviously good to try and stick close to ROAR rules (as much as i hate to say it) since it is the governing body that organizes our national and regional events here in the US. So what are the local clubs going to do? switch to 4cell or stay with 6cell for all TC classes

maybe some opinions from the racers so that club orgnizers and track owners can get a feel for what the masses want to see happen. any maybe some input from the track owners and organizers at to what they want to see happen..

:tire:

If I can get to the track tomorrow, I am going to try some 4 cell testing.

Don't know how deep I'll get into it because it will obviously take some re-aranging of electronics to maintain the balance of the cars. I don't want to spend a bunch of time screwing around right now.

I think its worth a shot trying it at least. If it doesn't work that well, then we don't have to run it.

Guess the turtles have a issue to ponder....


they always say slower is faster ...... :nod:

now

its

time for them to go even slower than the silver can racer`s ..... :lol:


or start

racing
mod..... :lol:


Ooooooo !!! Man !!! :D

i think this only apply's to mod there turtle lover...

You Dummy ...


4 cell

Its for all the class`s in Sedan .... :D


Yup 4 cell 27T is now officially gona become turtle free.... :tire:

My thoughts are the local tracks will do whatever is best for their club racers. The percentage of people who club race and attend national races is very small in my view. Most club racers don't even consider going to national events thinking they are not good enough, which is a shame.

I would be more curious to see what the large national races like IIC, Snowbirds, Novak, US Indoor Champs, etc that are not ROAR sanctioned races. If ROAR goes 4 or 5-cell will they follow.

In one thought, 4-cell sounds attractive because the batteries will cost less, motor wear will be less (arguable). However from reading the posts in the on-road forum thread it sounds like the battery war would double. At the highest level of compeition you will need more fresh packs with high numbers to compete.

at the recent japan nats the drivers used a new pack every run.

hey smart guy, your brushless crusade is over with ROAR going to 4cell :p

Why did they need to do that?

I don't really care either way. But at least its worth a try...

CJ, go to the on-road forum and read the 4-cell and 5-cell threads going on in there right now.

The quick answer is with mod and 4-cell there is a very high chance of dumping the pack at the end of the run. When you dump a pack on the track it damages the pack resulting in less runtime on the next charge. Since with 4-cell runtime is absolutely crucial they are running fresh packs every run to get the most.

With that said, this of course at the highest level of racing. Running 4 or 5-cell in stock or 19t obviously will not be as much as a issue.

I'll bring my 1/12 batts tomorrow and let's see what kind of runtime we can get in 19t or mod.

I will go 4 cell ,6 cell or LIPO ... I just want to race.

at least with 4 cell I won't spend all my time watching my batteries Discharge after a run and heating up the bench. :weird:

Well if they go 4-cell LIPO is dead since they don't make a 4.8v LIPO pack.

If you are running stock or 19t chances are you will still be discharging quite a bit. If you are worried about damaging the packs with heat like I was, get a better discharger like the MuchMore CTX-D2. 30amp pulse with auto cutoff and fans so the packs come off barely warm.

I haven't read the thread or anything about it, is ROAR still "thinking" about it, or is this actually going to happen for all classes and not just modified?

I think this is a bad idea in general. Most tracks will do what the racers want, and I'm assuming at this point but I don't think anyone really wants to run 4 or 5 cell stock sedan. So we'll still have open stock 6 cell, BUT there are going to be guys wanting to be able to compete on the ROAR race level so we'll need another class for those who want to run 4 or 5 cell open stock. So instead of having one stock class we can barely fill we'll have two? Great.

As for it happening just to the modified class, I think its still a bad idea. Open mod is basically the factory class, its where the factory best are supposed to compete and where the technology is put to it's limit. If the current batteries are blowing up electronics, well then the electronics need to advance to handle the batteries. At it's current state if a racer is going through a couple of speedos per race I don't think it should be an issue since in modified the factory sponsors should be picking up the tab. You really should not see many independants racing in mod unless they are guys with big bucks to support their own race team (like in other professional racing.) Top fuel dragsters can go through piston sets and crankshafts during a race weekend but you do not see a call for anyone to reduce the nitro content of the fuel.

I think it comes down to a show of hands at the track. If the majority of racers want this to happen it will gain popularity at the local club level. If not, its just going to be another ROAR rule we all bitch about.

I was just Kidding I have my indy 0-30 and it works just fine for me. :nod:

But how many NEW people want to buy a $50.00 to $100.00 Discharger. :rolleyes:

a 4 cell MINI cooper :rolleyes:


By going to 4 cells that means that the amp draw in the MOSFETS will have go up higher in order to keep the speed up BAD for the mosfets..

note: if the car takes 95 watts to run at 30 mph on the track then
95w/7.2V=13.194 amps constant
95w/4.8V=19.791 amps to keep up to same speed ( not counting reduced weight because it is a very minimal difference)
the MOSFETS will run 33% hotter (not a good thing)

the auto industry went from 6 volts to 12 volts in the 1940's to reduce amp draw on the starter motor (copper wire can only handle so much current per square inch of surface area)..

This will just make more electronics FAIL (does not make sence to me)

4 cell touring cars will totally obsolete everything the stock racer currently owns, and just start another technology war for battery manufacturers to come up with a 1.4v, 1.5v, or higher exotic sub-c cells, followed by the motor folks coming out with brand new winds and exotic brushes and magnet combinations to get the same speed as the existing 6 cell cars have. It may take them a year or two to get there, but the technology will evolve and all the non-sponsored racers will have to pay the $$$$$$ prices to go fast.

I agree with all the other posters. This seems like a bad move on Roar's part. Does anyone know the history behind this alleged decision by ROAR? Who is really pushing to get these new rules made?

Maybe 4 cell touring on a smaller carpet track but I think the cars would be considerably slower at a place like SIR. But then you are saving a couple of ounces in weight, and 4 cell 1/12 scale cars are as fast as or faster than the touring cars.

Maybe the 4 cell rule will just bring back 1/10 touring pan cars or pan chassis GTP cars?

Just another reason to not join ROAR?

your logic is only for you to understand, lets assume the reason i ran stock and silver can was because i couldn't handle going fast. wouldn't dropping to 4 cells make me even happier???? in other words, those of us "hiding" in stock still have no reason to go to mod. in fact what i see is the mod guys switching to stock as not to kill there packs every race day, to be able to make run time. that is if 4 cell racing sucks as bad as everyone is hoping.

point is, some will try it (like cj) and give a report back to us.

While your thought is valid, part of the reason they are doing it is to slow down the cars...but exactly what you said will happen, the racers will demand cells that provide either more amps out, or more volt per cell.

Thanks for posting this, Peter..you found something that I think most of us will agree on! :)

I have the Integy and it gets the packs WAY too hot because it's 30amp linear. When I was using that on the 4200WC packs they were coming off like 180+ F which is not ideal for the cells.

I never understood people's logic like this. You will buy several $70 packs to get the best runtime and voltage then you go discharge it on the cheapest thing you can find. Makes no sense, it's like buying a Rolls and then parking it on the street curb every night.

How is that different then right now? New batteries are coming out every 3-6 months currently with each new cell being much higher voltage then the last. To keep on top you have to buy a new packs several times a year.

I don't think this will change the technology race one bit. All it will do is temporary slow down the cars until the technology allows the same speed that it used to with 6-cells. Then what, we go to 2-cells? Sounds stupid to me.

WoW
 

Yea my Turbo 35 GFX is the cheapest thing on the market :p

I discharge most of my packs at just 5 to 10 amps on the Turbo35 and then use the Indy to ballance discharge only.
You are right about INDY 0-30 getting the 4200's HOT because it is designed to be used as a ballance discharger NOT a pack dump discharger like the Reactor.
and yep the Reactor Sucks Big time (I would never buy one)because I dont like to ruin my $70.00 packs either.
I like to slow discharge my packs untill 5.4volts and then apply the 30 amp Ballance discharge for only 1 to 3 min. that sould have all the lights out unless there is a bad cell. then I make a 4 cell pack out of that (BUT that is another story)

the Indy 0-35 is by far not the cheapest :ha: (I have some 2 bulb dischargers) :lol:

I am still using OLD 1400mah NiCad's and gp3300's from way back .In my TOY speed boat's. I quit using them because of the 4200's Voltage advantage :nod:

bACK TO subJECT

Aaah c-on !


I bet Ritchie can`t wait for next summer....


For that hot day on the parking lot !


Racing a 4 cell 27T sedan ..... :D :nod:



I got to be the only racer around to approve of the rule change .

I say it will help Sedan a lot because it will open up the class`s for the beginner`s and novices..


This alone is why I support the decision...


Just look at the novice entry`s count for the sedan program`s and then maybe you could understand why this has to happen....


The sedan sport needs fresh customer`s in order to survive

or


watch it die....

Normaly George I think you are the bigest waste of R/C tech bandwith

But you are right about the Novice / beginner classes shrinking.

Hay that is what Tamiya's GT3 /spec sedan /novice class is suposed to do .
but in this MicroSoft enriched land of money it dont seem to be working either.

4 cells will just ruin more speedo's in the sedan class :flaming:

no, actually i will be running a 3.5 or 4.5 brushless.. that is what you wanted isn't it. ran the 6.5 brushless all weekend at the gold cup even though the car works better with a brushed motor, winning isn't important to me anymore, not working on motors is. having fun and hangin with friends is even better.

Couldn't you do the same thing by running longer races with the same equipment we allready have? Wouldn't that make the racer think about run time and motor wear in a new way without having to redesign chassis and electronics?

Jeff, what people are saying the main issue is the voltage. Simply gearing the car different to get longer runtime will not change the voltage of the battery pack.

I don't believe undergearing the motor is the answer. Either we continue the current path and electronics catch up, or we step the voltage down.

LoL !

Blame the motor !!!!


I think I went as fast as you did !!

The motor was one of the reason`s I did though... :D

In my opinion 4 cells would be a good thing for the novice/beginner classes. Due to less cost for start up. And slightly slower speed for learning to drive and set up.

One way to do some testing is allow 19t to run 6 cells and allow those running 4 cells to run modified motors and see if they can equal the lap times. or make the car perform better on the track. I believe it will be close in lap times and should make for a fun race with more people in it.

Personally I don't care one way or the other. Set up the rules. I'll meet them and we can sort it out on the track.

One idea is open up the rules for Modified class. Throw out the motor rules, let the Manufactures create some motors and electronics that can handle the voltages of current and future energy sources. Only rule is the car has to meet weight/size. Let them develop traction control,rare magnets, Explore armature size. Develop windings/arms with other materials. All these will trickle down and make racing at the top level something that is helping push the limits of technology. And the biggest goal is to put some cash on the potium develop a professional league of R/C racing. Or stay the course let the hobby of R/C racing die a slow death.
OOPS got off on the wrong rant.

4 cells who knows. Try it, don't try it. who cares as long as the cars on the grid meet the same rules. And the race is deciede by the clock.

jeff, this is also part of the problem, i make a simple statement and somehow it gets rejected by the brain filter and gets modified into this reply.

somehow, "the car works better with a brushed motor" got translated into, "blame the motor," not blaming the motor, i sucked, and i was SLOW. and like george said, so did he, and the motor was the reason why.

also, everyone knows he just posts that stuff because he doesn't really have anything to say and just needs to be validated as a human by having someone reply to him. it also helps with the masterbation fantasys of actually having a friend to talk to.

oh yea, and goooooood morning seattle, overcast and breezie down here in the cali, gonna have to borrow a coat today.

Sorry , I use a 6.5 as well

and went fast ...

Not that you did`nt, or did you ? :p

I`ll try to not blame my motor when I try 4 cell...

Uh, all that really doesn't matter as much as this. DRIVE DIFFERENT!!!!! Everyone drives like maniacs because they have no worrry of dumping. That surely isn't doing anythinng to create skills. Learning to driver smooth and save some juice does.

I haven't read the on-road threads, so forgive me if I'm asking a 'tupid question here, but what is ROAR's reason for going to 4 cells?

Not that they ever have needed a good reason to do anything but if someone could give me the "cliff-notes" verison of their reason that would be great.

Are they trying to reduce costs? reduce the number of blown motors? make the chassis manufacturers redesign their chassis? anyone...... ???

Off topic (sort of) but, does anyone know why ROAR is the only US sanctioning body that can send racers to the IFMAR Worlds? How are ROAR and IFMAR tied at the hip? Oh, and is IFMAR following this 4-cell path?

Thanks

Has anyone seen the 4cell ruling on paper or is it a rumor that got started to see what the reaction would be? I tried to find something about it on the ROAR site but didn't. Maybe I missed it, help me out here if you saw it. I did make a comment on the other thread stating I didn't care one way or the other as long as a standard is met worldwide. I then got hammered pretty good by one of the factory team drivers for it. It was stated that basically the electronics will burn down and motors will have a short life too. I have never tried 4 cell in a sedan so I have no idea what will happen. I hope those of you who can test it out will fill all of us in and if it turns out it's a bad deal then we need to tell ROAR what we want. It comes down too...ROAR belongs to the membership not a handfull of people that may not be very well informed. If they have done or witnessed testing, we, as the heart of this hobby/sport should know about it before it becomes gospel. It sounds to me that the pan car classes will get get alot larger. I'd think the manufacturers of sedans would want to get involved since not many of them even biuld a pan car.
Later, Mike

on the www.yokomousa.com site there is newly added video from the japan 4 cell race, enjoy, hope you have high speed.

This is taken from the main thread, Billy is the ROAR competitions director.

Drive Smoother
 

I saw some of that smooth driving sunday :lol:

Drive Smoother
 

:rolleyes:

Funny

You got put down by "Trucks" running 19t last night. So quit your braggin you "Back Marker". Must have been your Motor = )

Trucks Rock!!