Is On-Road racing dead?
05-28-2011, 08:51 PM
#61
Controlled RTR Class!
The points made in this thread are excellent and most hit the question dead on. On-road is not dead but fluctuates with the economy more so than off-road. Many of the points made why off road is more popular are very true. Cheaper start up, cheaper to be competitive, easier to learn how to drive, and can be used almost any where. On-road is more expensive and places to run the car maybe challenging in some areas to find.
My main disappointment is directly pointed at the RC magazines available in this industry. Pick up car action magazine or look at the INTERNET version of the same and try to fine articles about on-road racing. Especially Nitro on-road racing. Where are the "How To's" or any other related topic about this portion of the hobby. Sure they may poorly cover the Worlds that happened to be in the States this year and last. But the word "poorly" best describes the coverage. Relative questions about the art of setting up the car, or driving the car, or maintenance between heats and heat to finals are never addressed. It is more likely to see the question of how is your car handling? With no follow up. It is of course hard to blame the magazines totally because those that write the article run off road or fly planes.
In any case, the On-Road nitro and electric are still a part of the RC hobby and truly the main stay of the RC hobby for many years now. But to get those younger people interested in the On-Road hobby we need some things to happen. We need to be talked about in the magazines in every issue. Not as many articles as off-road of course, I understand the finances of the industry. But something every issue. We need a good entry level Nitro on-road car that is supported as only as a entry level. The 1:8th Super GT class is now basically growing into an on-road chassis with 1:8th on-road two speeds, clutches, and some cases motors with only off-road arms and 17mm tires. Keep the RTR's as they are and no add ons so new hobbyist can learn how to run and drive an on-road car and then grow from there. Clubs, RC tracks, and ROAR should hold to the rules for this entry level class as well as the manufacturers. Then in major races no pro drivers allowed in these entry level car classes. Trophy hunters will be weeded by qualifying times. If a sportsman driver has qualifying times equal to B main or better, then he is placed in the expert class. We don't want to intimidate the new hobbyist. They must run with racers at their level. If they can win at that level then a trophy is presented to a real sportsman driver.
On-Road is not dead! Just a few tweaks and we can start growing again nationwide!
My main disappointment is directly pointed at the RC magazines available in this industry. Pick up car action magazine or look at the INTERNET version of the same and try to fine articles about on-road racing. Especially Nitro on-road racing. Where are the "How To's" or any other related topic about this portion of the hobby. Sure they may poorly cover the Worlds that happened to be in the States this year and last. But the word "poorly" best describes the coverage. Relative questions about the art of setting up the car, or driving the car, or maintenance between heats and heat to finals are never addressed. It is more likely to see the question of how is your car handling? With no follow up. It is of course hard to blame the magazines totally because those that write the article run off road or fly planes.
In any case, the On-Road nitro and electric are still a part of the RC hobby and truly the main stay of the RC hobby for many years now. But to get those younger people interested in the On-Road hobby we need some things to happen. We need to be talked about in the magazines in every issue. Not as many articles as off-road of course, I understand the finances of the industry. But something every issue. We need a good entry level Nitro on-road car that is supported as only as a entry level. The 1:8th Super GT class is now basically growing into an on-road chassis with 1:8th on-road two speeds, clutches, and some cases motors with only off-road arms and 17mm tires. Keep the RTR's as they are and no add ons so new hobbyist can learn how to run and drive an on-road car and then grow from there. Clubs, RC tracks, and ROAR should hold to the rules for this entry level class as well as the manufacturers. Then in major races no pro drivers allowed in these entry level car classes. Trophy hunters will be weeded by qualifying times. If a sportsman driver has qualifying times equal to B main or better, then he is placed in the expert class. We don't want to intimidate the new hobbyist. They must run with racers at their level. If they can win at that level then a trophy is presented to a real sportsman driver.
On-Road is not dead! Just a few tweaks and we can start growing again nationwide!
Think you have made some good points here... I would like to see Clubs working with governing bodies could introduce a controlled RTR class for people to start out with. People can then learn driving skills and setup skills at a controlled cost until the time comes for them to step up.
Andrew
05-29-2011, 08:05 AM
#62
I remember when at Sundays we parking lot bashers would lay the pipes in the ground delimiting the "track" using the back of a truck as a drivers stand.It was just for fun or bragging rights.Now the same racers are just racing at an offroad track,delimited with pipe,but with a real drivers stand.They didn't graduate,just raced with approximately same money they spent at onroad but with a bigger,meaner,tougher machine.If they started buying the pro engines and kits they would've complained about the price be it on or offroad.
I see a need for upgrading those 1/10th RTR's with better engines and electronics while using the same bodies and remaining cheap.Definitely tuned pipes either EFRA legal or not,.12 engines from a respected manufacturer,reliable electronics that aren't slow nor expensive.Did someone thought about the G4JR?What about the FW-06?OFNA CD3?Parking lot racers don't need complication that comes with the Pro kits.
I see a need for upgrading those 1/10th RTR's with better engines and electronics while using the same bodies and remaining cheap.Definitely tuned pipes either EFRA legal or not,.12 engines from a respected manufacturer,reliable electronics that aren't slow nor expensive.Did someone thought about the G4JR?What about the FW-06?OFNA CD3?Parking lot racers don't need complication that comes with the Pro kits.
05-29-2011, 08:16 AM
#63
Tech Fanatic
My Experience
I think on road is a blast. Only problem is it's a blast for about 30 minutes of a 8 hour practice day.
I'm always on the fence about getting back in. The one thing that holds me back is the complicated setups and the need to research what parts from different kits will make the car faster.
I was talking yesterday to a friend (who was a top racer including many A Mains at national events and even a Semi finish at a worlds). He even said that he felt during his racing, the clutch setup was his teams largest issue. He was a team driver---- so if team drivers have setup issues think about the average "Joe" (lol).
In my opinion, there needs to be redesign in the cars to provide more track time and less pit time. To have a RTR class or Spec class would be a good start. But, to target it towards beginners would be an issue for those who want to have a "simplified" setup and still have the intense competition.
In the end, a less complex clutch and chasis setup would equal less people leaving on road thus a greater amount of racers and lower costs (due to manufacturer's costs being spread over a greater population providing price decreases).
Just my $0.02.
Joe
I'm always on the fence about getting back in. The one thing that holds me back is the complicated setups and the need to research what parts from different kits will make the car faster.
I was talking yesterday to a friend (who was a top racer including many A Mains at national events and even a Semi finish at a worlds). He even said that he felt during his racing, the clutch setup was his teams largest issue. He was a team driver---- so if team drivers have setup issues think about the average "Joe" (lol).
In my opinion, there needs to be redesign in the cars to provide more track time and less pit time. To have a RTR class or Spec class would be a good start. But, to target it towards beginners would be an issue for those who want to have a "simplified" setup and still have the intense competition.
In the end, a less complex clutch and chasis setup would equal less people leaving on road thus a greater amount of racers and lower costs (due to manufacturer's costs being spread over a greater population providing price decreases).
Just my $0.02.
Joe
05-29-2011, 09:21 AM
#64
I was running my BMT 3 hours on the row today, all the time I was there on the track. No surprises, much fun. 2 flips and 1 hit to pit area fence, no damage.
Comparing to my offroad where I run all time up and down the stairs because I cannot keep it on wheels more than 3 laps on the row. Unless I have a friend to run with who can marshall my car and me his in turn.
Comparing to my offroad where I run all time up and down the stairs because I cannot keep it on wheels more than 3 laps on the row. Unless I have a friend to run with who can marshall my car and me his in turn.
05-29-2011, 11:01 PM
#65
Honestly, I don't know how this discussion got involved with 1/8 anything or even nitro. It is my opinion that 1/8 (big scale) and nitro really should belong to more seasoned hobbyists.
This is purely about onroad vs. offroad and its costs and popularity. Newcomers should really start in 1/10th electric. Its easy, its arrive and drive and in all of my 20 YEARS IN THIS HOBBY, electric has never been so easy to run and maintain. LIPO batteries makes charging and longevity a no brainer and brushless has made "going fast" easy. No more need for "Big Jim's Black Book of Motor Secrets".
I really think the price point for a beginner should be about $300 radio included less charger and battery. (the lipo charger and battery can be had for another $150 or less easily) Technology and costs (Made in China) has made it possible to offer a package with 2.4ghz radio with BL electronics. If the mfgs can offer cars like the AE TC4 or the HPI Pro4 in Sportsman configuration (plastic components) this can be very achievable.
In fact I remember back in the hey day of 1/10 TC onroad when the TC3 came out, kids can get a basic sport level TC3 and be competitive at their local club race in novice class. We need this class of racing to happen again if we want to see onroad come back. Classes like those are the seeds that needs to be planted so that they may flourish onto higher levels of onroad racing like Nitro and 1/8. I'm sure many of you onroaders who are now involved in higher skilled levels of onroad had your start from back in that era of RC.
However, one of the biggest drawbacks in this "beginner" level of racing is its appeal. Back in the day cars were offered with scale looking bodies like a Honda Accord or a Dodge Stratus or a BMW or Mercedes. Nowadays onroad cars don't look like anything you see on the road. Much of this has to do with the costs of licensing for these bodies. From the complaints I've heard from Dale Epp about what the costs are, its a fact that really hurts the hobby. (Really, why should car makers charge licensing when it only helps to promote their product?) If you look at short course, there was a lot of appeal to the younger crowd because the kits offerred looks like the actual trucks that are being raced. Onroad needs to have scale looks come back again! So far the only ones available are Tamiya (high cost) and HPI.(only in 200mm which makes it difficult when fitting standard inexpensive premounted tires for 190mm)
This is purely about onroad vs. offroad and its costs and popularity. Newcomers should really start in 1/10th electric. Its easy, its arrive and drive and in all of my 20 YEARS IN THIS HOBBY, electric has never been so easy to run and maintain. LIPO batteries makes charging and longevity a no brainer and brushless has made "going fast" easy. No more need for "Big Jim's Black Book of Motor Secrets".
I really think the price point for a beginner should be about $300 radio included less charger and battery. (the lipo charger and battery can be had for another $150 or less easily) Technology and costs (Made in China) has made it possible to offer a package with 2.4ghz radio with BL electronics. If the mfgs can offer cars like the AE TC4 or the HPI Pro4 in Sportsman configuration (plastic components) this can be very achievable.
In fact I remember back in the hey day of 1/10 TC onroad when the TC3 came out, kids can get a basic sport level TC3 and be competitive at their local club race in novice class. We need this class of racing to happen again if we want to see onroad come back. Classes like those are the seeds that needs to be planted so that they may flourish onto higher levels of onroad racing like Nitro and 1/8. I'm sure many of you onroaders who are now involved in higher skilled levels of onroad had your start from back in that era of RC.
However, one of the biggest drawbacks in this "beginner" level of racing is its appeal. Back in the day cars were offered with scale looking bodies like a Honda Accord or a Dodge Stratus or a BMW or Mercedes. Nowadays onroad cars don't look like anything you see on the road. Much of this has to do with the costs of licensing for these bodies. From the complaints I've heard from Dale Epp about what the costs are, its a fact that really hurts the hobby. (Really, why should car makers charge licensing when it only helps to promote their product?) If you look at short course, there was a lot of appeal to the younger crowd because the kits offerred looks like the actual trucks that are being raced. Onroad needs to have scale looks come back again! So far the only ones available are Tamiya (high cost) and HPI.(only in 200mm which makes it difficult when fitting standard inexpensive premounted tires for 190mm)
Last edited by YR4Dude; 05-29-2011 at 11:16 PM.
05-31-2011, 01:53 PM
#67
To go even further beyond that, in offroad, many are turning towards electric because of its ease and simplicity. No need for break-in for electric.
Do you really expect newcomers who are struggling with basic driving skills and suspension setups to deal with the intricacies of tuning a nitro engine at the same time? If you want the ranks of onroaders to grow, there needs to be a place to start that is "easy" and nitro is not the place.
05-31-2011, 02:12 PM
#68
Now all is fine because for most brands it has no priority. When the 1st officiol WC is there the big electric (touring) names with all their knowledge and support will be there also and then th sh*t will hit the fan....
06-05-2011, 06:30 PM
#69
Tech Fanatic
I agree with TM America that some, if not much of the blame should go to the RC magazines, as most of them blatantly feature off-road over on-road, issue after issue. RC Car Action should just change it's name to RC Off Road Car Action, as that is all it seems to feature every month. It is obvious what it's editors prefer. The magazine that does the best job of trying to be fair is RC Driver, which does do a better job of covering both on and off road rc vehicles.
Also, many of the "newbies" to rc are those who come from the "play in the dirt, Tonka truck" genre, and on-road doesn't do it for them, as they have to be driven on smooth surfaces and can't be enjoyed in back yards or sandlots or various other uneven surfaces that those type frequent.
Also, it has been pointed out on various forums, that the vast majority who purchase rc vehicles in America, NEVER race them; they just play with them on the street or in their yards or a sandlot; another reason why off-road is more popular, unfortunately.
Also, many of the "newbies" to rc are those who come from the "play in the dirt, Tonka truck" genre, and on-road doesn't do it for them, as they have to be driven on smooth surfaces and can't be enjoyed in back yards or sandlots or various other uneven surfaces that those type frequent.
Also, it has been pointed out on various forums, that the vast majority who purchase rc vehicles in America, NEVER race them; they just play with them on the street or in their yards or a sandlot; another reason why off-road is more popular, unfortunately.
06-06-2011, 05:39 AM
#70
but imo biggest reason offroad is more popular is for under 500 bucks
And here in lies the point a lot of people are missing here. A new diver does not need the latest Serpent or Xray, nor the latest Novarossi engine that will tear the paint off the walls. What they need is something reliable, that is easy to get parts for and is not going to break the bank for them to get started and to crash 100 times, and yes all new drivers will crash 100 times and thats just in the first lap.
I am very new to the sport and i drive onroad 1/10 in gas and electric. My cars consist of a Hobao GPX4 rtr stock out of the box, total cost 500 bucks including a set of foams, fuel and starter pack, I found this to be way to fast for me so i then bought a cheep electric LRP s10 tc, a couple of big assed lipo's and a charger, for another 400 bucks, this has gotten my driving skills up and i have since changed to a 17.5 turn brushless and speed control, as well as a bunch of bigger spur gears to make it go faster.
Of the two, i enjoy that LRP more, as a roller you can buy one for $120 and mine, as it is set up currently is about 2 seconds a lap off the pace of guys with 5 and more years of driving experience who are driving the latest Shumachers and Xray chassis, which cost $700+ for a roller.
There are novice classes for a reason, it is to let those who do not have much experience in driving or the latest and greatest equipment drive against those of similar experience and have some fun, and lets face it, this is all about fun for most of us, so why spiol it by heaping on big $ expectations onto new guys.
There are cheep alternatives, you just have to look a little bit further than what the best guy in the club is using, and to get people into club racing and club fun. Seems a lot of clubs have special classes that are in house just for newbies, this is where you get to learn, make friends and have some laughs.
Last edited by RogerDaShrubber; 06-06-2011 at 05:53 AM.
06-07-2011, 03:32 AM
#71
Throwing a novice on a track with a car that has a top speed of any more then about 40kmh is asking for trouble!!! 
That's the inherant problem with Nitro On-Road.
In these days of everything having a 2 speed and a Centax even the slowest of cars is MUCH faster then that, and throw in the confusion of having to keep it on the track for the first time.
I remember what it was like when I started. The first few months of racing are spent tuning engines and adjusting transmissions and clutches and not finishing races, because of crashes
Long story short….
The cars are TOO FAST for novices to have fun on a closed course!!
Bring on a Single Speed Novice Class to 200mm pull start!!!
That's the inherant problem with Nitro On-Road.
In these days of everything having a 2 speed and a Centax even the slowest of cars is MUCH faster then that, and throw in the confusion of having to keep it on the track for the first time.
I remember what it was like when I started. The first few months of racing are spent tuning engines and adjusting transmissions and clutches and not finishing races, because of crashes
Long story short….
The cars are TOO FAST for novices to have fun on a closed course!!
Bring on a Single Speed Novice Class to 200mm pull start!!!
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