YOU ARE RIGHT.
 

The points my boy makes are right, as are Farmers. My plans are with the pan car as it is everything I had hoped it would be as a class. This is the last input from me on slower 4wd. Plenty of older cars setting around (deemed not fit to compete with current cars). Rick pointed out how a resistor in any motor, would be easy to police (5.4mm sounds good). Everything my boy says is there, the work load of 4wd is allot. Cost would be down due to slower speed, less fuel, tires, and breakage. Having a slower place to learn on, offers perhaps more track time, which is a good thing.
That being said, for the second race in a row, our two P8Cs needed no repairs at all. Played with old 4wd tires and Noah is burning up 16% fuel, while life in the Killer "Bs" pit is good, we miss III.
My heros drive 4wd! But I am enjoying simple!:nod:

I think everyone is very well aware of the
Work involved in campaigning a 4wd car...but still
Think there is a place for older 4wd cars with
Lesser motors.....I'm at a dead end with
My old 4wd.... No matter what I try I can't get
It to handle exactly as I want....it's crazy hard
Trying to find that last .5-1.0 second...

Whoa There!!
 

Hang on there big boy, don't think you understand the conversation here (at least what I'm trying to say!).

As far as "Instant Gratification" discussion: Open 4wd drive is certainly the ultimate in RC racing! The point Farmer J made and I think is correct is that many potential racers get turned off by exactly what you are talking about: all the work involved to compete. The lack of "RTR" stuff may be why so little new blood gets into 1/8 gas. I think that the complexity and speed of the cars is intimidating and many, as FJ said, are looking for instant gratification and decide it is too much work.

If you are talking about scratch building: my interest is as a hobbiest and modeler. Not trying to make comments at all about 4wd, except that for me it's too fast for me to have fun (personal problem!). (Pan probably is too!) The lesser complexity of the pan type cars allows us to do more modification and scratch building than with the more complex and highly developed 4wd cars. (That is the reason I favor the "Vintage" direct drive cars, but that's another story.)

I do disagree with you on the need for a "SPEC" 4wd class. The pan cars are big in Toledo, but nowhere else in the US that we know of. I know from experience that you do not HAVE to work anywhere as much as you do to have fun with a 4wd car, you just go slower!!!!!!!!!!! There are a great number of good cheap 4wd cars out there, probably 25 times as many as modern pans.

:nod::nod::nod::nod::nod::nod:

:nod::nod::nod:

Great job Noah!!! (What happened to III????)

:nod::nod::nod::nod::nod::nod:

http://www.redrc.net/2012/09/rouanet...y-takes-title/

Motonica extreme2 won 5th round but WRC GT Due won the French Classique Championship 2012 :tire:

Phil, is this sort of your vision for your home built (minus the Rube Goldberg touches)?

http://tsimon.perso.free.fr/Protos/J...oto_2001_4.jpg

[QUOTE=Das 1/8th Mopar;11219653] My plans are with the pan car as it is everything I had hoped it would be as a class.
Lon - I think you should be given full credit for getting the pan class going and keeping it moving - it's just too bad there isn't a car that people could walk into a hobby shop and buy.

This is the last input from me on slower 4wd. Plenty of older cars setting around (deemed not fit to compete with current cars). Rick pointed out how a resistor in any motor, would be easy to police (5.4mm sounds good).

Think we should use restrictors instead - those little resistors will do too much piston damage going through the motor :lol::lol:

Should we consider a 4wd limited class with small carb restrictors and maybe even 16% fuel ?? might it be a transition between pan and open ??

Hm
 

Not too far from it. Our design will be a little cleaner and lowered to the deck, of course...lol, but it's the basic idea. Tom has had zero issues with the Kyosho drive setup so we're going that route, single speed. Aluminum bulkheads forward and aft to couple the Edam hubs onto. Everything else is pretty mickey mouse compared to that, which is why I think it'll be so easy to build, but we're definitely staying with "off the shelf" as much as possible to give more choices for less money.

No, there really aren't any hobby shops backing our play in 2wd or 4wd, certainly no one stop shop or helpline to figure out what a person needs. I'm coming up with a list for anyone who wants Edam and I'll handle all those details, from the newbie to the old hand. I figured, what good is throwing a car at a newbie unless he understands about a bump box, plugs, radio, and all the crap we require to run.

As for pan, the goal (hope) is to build it so strong that practically no parts will be necessary, and we'll have figures drawn up on paper for that as well.

And hey..I'm still looking for this "instant gratification" bs I keep hearing about.

[QUOTE=Rick Davis;11220128]Rick,.. what would an ex 4WD car handle like with the 4wd parts removed???......Could they be made to work with the locked rear end and a restrictor motor and 16%???:confused:..A little better than pan???......but not so wide open like 4WD??.....

Hm
 

[QUOTE=Taylorm;11221571]I see problems with that. First, you've still got an inherently weak setup, still no good for newbies. Second, you've now got a straight axle (solid axle for you other types) which means the car doesn't turn too well. Third, Lon was ruling something like that out earlier in the year, I believe the argument was even with everything locked out, there's still too much play and what not. I had that same idea regarding my Super Eagle and the collective opinion was no way in hell.

My two cents worth...sell what you have and either buy one of my cheapies or build a pan or wait till we get ours built and duplicate it.

The one place of merit I do see in your idea, however, is that anyone who wants to run pan but doesn't want to get something else entirely could still make use of what they have (and what they are familiar with.) When it comes down to it, my vote would be in favor of it, provided anyone with issues could hold tech on such a car to make sure there isn't excessive play and thus unfair advantage. But again, unless someone is really heavily invested in what they are driving, I think it'd be cheaper to unload what you have and get something else entirely.

[QUOTE=hitcharide1;11221968]......didnt mean that the car would be run as a "pan"....but as a cheap 2wd suspension car.........im also against
an ex 4WD car with supspension locked out for pan class......

Ah
 

[QUOTE=Taylorm;11222877]See..this is what happens when I don't pay attention. Won't have enough steering without a diff, I remember trying to run a Super Eagle with the diff locked down and the thing just wouldn't turn. That said, you could just yank the belt and see what happens, maybe the setup of the 4wd would change things somehow but I doubt it.

Jury is still out.
 

Not completely done with solid axle idea. Think it was a mistake to just put it in a diff car and not change the set up for it.

Just Talking!!!! EL/RC
 

Lon has talked with me on a straight axle car in the past. A couiple of points: 1) The diff is a difficult to build and expensive part. 2) What if the whole class had straight axles...

The "ENTRY LEVEL/RTR CAR" could become a reality!

[QUOTE=Taylorm;11221571]Well I'm not sure , might be interesting to try - we probably ran for the first 7 or 8 years without diffs (I know for certain the car I ran at the 77 worlds does not have a diff) , and even then we'd pull them out on high traction situations.

[QUOTE=Rick Davis;11224401]may just work, my car was getting too "diffy" so i opened up the diff, yuck that lube turns into something strange. after refill is a bit stiffer

[QUOTE=5italkart;11225245]Need thicker grease like ball joint grease....most of
The pans are diffing bad and are losing ( gaining)
Lap time...

Hm
 

I thought about trying it before and then talked myself out of it. I must have at least five of the things, maybe I'll throw one together and give it a shot at the club race on the 30th...find out once and for all if straight axle on a pan will work.

[QUOTE=Taylorm;11225659]Lon and I have both been running 200, 000 for a while. I started to dif out a bit this last Sunday. I don't think 300,000 is out of the question, but this dif is a pain to work on.

Hm
 

[QUOTE=Farmer_John;11225943]Part of the reason of our new build going with the kyosho diff..got some advantages. It's adjustable, gear driven (no bloody ball bearing set) and it's interchangable with ofna, redcat, and a few others. Tom and I have this theory that all of 'em are built in the same factory, but with different names stamped on them...there's no other way to explain how they are all exactly the same size and shape. A bunch of something is always going to be cheaper than just a few, and interchangability means one guy breaking down (unlikely) means someone at the track will have parts. I suspect the things don't break much anyhow, Tom used his in an offroad for two years, then adapted it for GT and has never had the slightest issue with it...And I've found the entire diff, case and gears, on Ebay as cheap as 40 bucks.

That said, I'm still thinking I should maybe dig out a straight axle, just to see what it would do. The thing I wonder is, aside from possible handling issues, would it eat more rubber? The advantage of having a straight axle requiring no maintenance may not outweigh a diff that requires little or no maintenance.

Another issue is that with the Super J, the axle runs from tire to tire. Adapting it to run the new tires is easy enough, but one of the aspects of our build was to include adjustment for caster/camber and toe. I could build a straight axle setup that still has that, but then have to build a carrier...and frankly, what's the point? That or I use the same case and just fix the spiders, like what we've done for full size autos.

Upshot: I'll probably still throw a straight J together, just to have a whack, but still proceed on with the other build as I think it's going to do well...and it'll be fun to build and run.

Phil...think less. Do more.

One thing to take into consideration with off road based diffs is internal gearing. I'm also here to tell you that there are at least 4 bearings in a good off road dif and shimming makes all the difference in the world to efficiency..

For example: Associated runs 4.30:1, Losi runs 3.30:1 while Kyosho (in the MP9 anyway is at 3.31:1 Makes a big difference when you go to gear for your final.

Just for the record, the Motonica P8C series differential is an oil filled gear diff. Off road buggy diffs use bevel gears, the Motonica diff uses worm type gears, but the basic concept and assembly is similiar. The diff that was in my car (which now belongs to Farmer) has the original gears, orings, and external bearings (just like an off road diff), and only the oil has been changed. The car and diff is now about 4 years old I think.

If you are finding the diff difficult to work on, I think I know what the problem might be. The first time you build it, it will go together very easy. The second and consequent times, you will need to open and empty the 2 halves completely. Take it apart, place each half facing down and allow all the oil to come out. If the small holes in either half, where the pins that hold the gears in place, contain any oil when you try to place the gears/pins back in place, the oil will tend to push the pins out. If they holes are empty/dry, everything should drop into place, fill with oil, join the halves, and install back in the car.

That was my experience. Once I got them lined up, it went together, but it took longer than a bevel gear diff. I'd have the pins lined up, only to have one squish back out. Didn't help that I was doing it close to race time...

I do think Garen, that it's time to freshen the rear of the car up. I hope Italy has gone back to work.

Off-road vs. "Pan" car Diffs
 

A couple of observations on DIffs: The Motonica gear diff is a "spur gear" unit, another company had a "worm" type for off-road, called a "Gleason". As Garen said all gear diffs are quite similar.

The ratios Farmer is talking about are the "ring & pinion" ratios and are quite different from what the modern pans run, 48/20 or 2.4:1 for Moto belt drive pulleys vs. 3.3 to 4+:1 for the off-road units as mentioned. Instead of around 47spur/18 pinion (to get a 6.2:1 FDR) you need a pinion in the low to mid 20's for the Kyo/Los 3.3 and low 30's for the Assoc gearing. (Check my math!!!)

I my experience the issue with the silicone oil filled diffs is getting it out and refilling it. One trick is to mix in low viscosity shock oil to dilute the super heavy diff fluid, and as Garen says be sure the fluid is all cleaned out of any pin holes, motor cleaner sprayed in with a "straw" works pretty well. The shimming may need to be done for both the diff gears in the housing and the ring and pinion on the outside. Those big metal gears can be expensive so be sure to pay attention. Hopefully the pan car application will not be as demanding as the off-road application...

Good luck to all!

Hm
 

True, true...just saying, he's never had a problem with the thing, ever. Remember, I'm shooting for price and durability. The only thing he's ever done to it is, instead of filling it with oil, he filled it mostly with Lucas...and we use that stuff in everything, plus it's really good stuff to assemble engines with.

As for thinking less, I'm not sure how I could do that without stopping thinking entirely...which may be an improvement...

Also true
 

Right now I'm spitballing but here's the general idea. Tom's car, when it's running right, is nearly as quick down the backstraight as anything else on the track, and there's only a three tooth difference in spurs. Remember, we still intend to use gears, albeit single speed, but now we're only pushing a 5.25 pound car and we're doing it with a .21 vs. a .28, the .21 getting higher rpm. So my crude math skills plus general observation is that the gearing should neither dog nor wind out, plus we have gear options as well (and yes, I'm considering the difference between how it reacts as a 4wd vs. how it should a 2wd.)

If I have the thing built before February, I'll take it with me to the Winternats and run a few laps during practice. I know they aren't running pan down there but no reason I can't get a lap or two in, for testing purposes, and to make sure I'm on top of things before racing season starts up here.

By the way, I'm still trying to talk a guy on Ebay out of his MRP diff so I can complete a third GP180. I'd like to be able to sell at least one on Ebay, just so I know what the market worth of the thing is, but I haven't forgotten that you and Lon both want one, and we'll find a way to make that happen....

I hate the state of Ohio
 

I had a bad day monday. Really bad.

Went down to the courthouse and paid my land taxes. All I could think of while doing that was how much rc crap I could buy with that kind of money.

Went down to the DMV, had to renew tags for the van plus transfer the title over for the '08 Chevy I just bought. All I could think of while doing that was I was starting to resent the state of Ohio and how much rc crap I could buy with that kind of money.

Got an emergency call from the ex-wife (that's right, I said EX-wife) who needed a buck. She's the mother of my children and I'm an idiot. So off to Western Union I drove, after hitting the bank, and all I could think of...wait a sec...think I've said this already...PLUS since I met her and married her in the state of Ohio, it's their fault.

Tuesday was a much better day.....

The Moto gear diff uses no shims inside or outside. Some off road diffs use shims inside (behind the large bevel gears and/or behind the small bevel gears) and nearly all require shims on the outside to get the gear mesh between the ring and pinion just right. Since the P8C is belt drive, no need for the outer shims. I think as long as there is oil in the diff and the screws holding it together are tight, it will be very rare for the Moto diff to fail. Farmer- how do the internal gears look in that diff?

not so much
 

Thanks for thinking of me and the MRP car. However at this time I feel our six feet are firmly planted in the Motonica car. It's a very good car stock out of the box, then you can make it better. I would say if you went to race a pan car, get a P8C and be done with it.:D

Clean, with no visible signs of wear. Which I would expect with this type of diff, as the gears are straight cut and full contact. I've had to do a bit of shimming on nearly every off road diff I've used.

you said it !!! good parts support, quality car. i imagine the others avaiable are good as well

What others? :lol::lol:

Oh, you must mean in them "furrin' " countries!! What available in the GWN? (Great White North)

Hm
 

I didn't think you wanted an MRP to run, I thought you just wanted one for shelf queen....

Heh
 

Lord willing, next year there'll be something availible in pan in the GWN from us....I'm selling 4wd's but have no desire to try to make those...too much like work.

http://imodel.fr/dxf/4360-dxf-premium-kit-.html
http://imodel.fr/dxf/3833-vortex-kit.html
http://www.rcbazar.net/modules.php?n...ticle&sid=1291

????
 

Matt, hope you are not trying to show that the pan cars are "avaialble"! lol Do you forget I have the DXF Vortex? Not only did I pay enough to get a compo from Garen, shipping will kill you if you try to buy any parts!!! I knew this going in and did it because I wanted to have a different car, so no regrets here but these cars are never going to become popular until they are at least as available as the Moto. It's the only game in town!

Sorry you won't be in Cinci ;-( I have a couple of projects I want you to see. I'll send you pics...

I know they are not available.... Until class goes country wide.... Options
Will be limited... Yes I remember French fry car...is joe p
Going to Cincinnati?.... I could send the moody stuff with him....

best too leave that stuff with sr. no border issues i'm cinci bound friday after work