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-   -   European 2wd 1/8th pan car on-road Classic class (https://www.rctech.net/forum/nitro-road/339398-european-2wd-1-8th-pan-car-road-classic-class.html)

djmachinist 10-27-2009 04:48 AM

European 2wd 1/8th pan car on-road Classic class
 
Does anybody know anything about this class and the rules? I understand there is quite a bit of interest in this class in France, Italy, and Germany.
What Cars are avaliable? This is a 2WD Pan Car class with Spec engines is all I know about this class.

I would love to see a simple 1/8 spec class with spec engines developed in the US. We seem to shoot ourselves in the foot every time we try to start
a spec class in this country. It usaually starts out as a low cost spec class
with inexpensive engines then morphs into a high cost highly competive (including pro driver participation) monster after a few years (200mm 10th Sedan class comes to mind!).

The Europeans may have something here. Maybe some of our European friends will jump here and post some info about this class. Maybe even post a few pics?!!!!

Dale

Roelof 10-27-2009 06:11 AM

Last weekend I was at the EFRA GP in Monaco and there were about 20 drivers running this class, it is indeed very populair in France.

There are several brands but also big names like Serpent and Motonica, search on www.redrc.net and you will find some product news about it.

The cars are simple like a solid front and rear end, the front is mounted as a 1/12th pancar T-bar, a normal clutch and no 2 or 3-speed gearbox.

Several reasons were given for driving this class and most of the people say it is simple, strong and cheap.

djmachinist 10-27-2009 07:33 AM

3 Attachment(s)

Originally Posted by Roelof (Post 6526224)
Last weekend I was at the EFRA GP in Monaco and there were about 20 drivers running this class, it is indeed very populair in France.

There are several brands but also big names like Serpent and Motonica, search on www.redrc.net and you will find some product news about it.

The cars are simple like a solid front and rear end, the front is mounted as a 1/12th pancar T-bar, a normal clutch and no 2 or 3-speed gearbox.

Several reasons were given for driving this class and most of the people say it is simple, strong and cheap.

Roelof,

Yes I did read about this class on REDRC. I am old enough to have run the old Associated and Delta pan cars of the 70's & early 80's. We ran an 1/8
scale pan class here in the Texas SWS series up until about 1992 when we droped the class and ran 2wd Suspension cars such as the BMT,Serpent and Delta P2 cars. Sadly, that class was droped along with 235mm 10th scale in favor of the present 200mm sedan class.

I found the French DXF and Motonica P8C Classic cars on REDRC.

djmachinist 10-27-2009 07:48 AM

3 Attachment(s)

Originally Posted by djmachinist (Post 6526504)
Roelof,

Yes I did read about this class on REDRC. I am old enough to have run the old Associated and Delta pan cars of the 70's & early 80's. We ran an 1/8
scale pan class here in the Texas SWS series up until about 1992 when we droped the class and ran 2wd Suspension cars such as the BMT,Serpent and Delta P2 cars. Sadly, that class was droped along with 235mm 10th scale in favor of the present 200mm sedan class.

I found the French DXF and Motonica P8C Classic cars on REDRC.

Ifound more pics of the thr French DXF 2WD pan car without the cool rear diffuser.

djmachinist 10-27-2009 09:07 AM

4 Attachment(s)

Originally Posted by djmachinist (Post 6526561)
Ifound more pics of the thr French DXF 2WD pan car without the cool rear diffuser.

I found Motonica's P8C 2wd pan car on the Motonica site. They are also going to offer a P8F 4wd version of this car.

1/8 oldschool 10-27-2009 01:02 PM

I agree that this class of car is badly needed in the U.S. , something needs to be done about the state of 1/8 scale racing .The cars have gotten so technical and so fast that only a handful of drivers can extract the performance out of them. They truely have become the Formula One of R/C car racing , but real Formula One has lesser series with slower cars ( GP2 , Formula 3 , Formula Ford etc.) and that's what is needed for 1/8 onroad , a simpler , slower and cheaper class. I have mentioned this to some people and one of the popular rebuttles I have gotten was; its' though to sell something that is slower. Well look at the Traxxas Slash they seem to be selling O.K. !! and they're a hell of a lot slower than my son's Kyosho RB5.

wingracer 10-27-2009 01:08 PM

I would love to run this class. I know Garen has brought the Motonica into the states for those that wanted one.

J.Gonzalez 10-27-2009 01:31 PM

I also think it is a great idea however some basic issues to overcome...

1-

I inquired about buying cars from motonica and wrc to test. I help run a program at controlfreakz raceway and was looking into other intro classes as I think the GT car are not the way to go. They dont handle that great and are overly complicated for their performance...big turnoff to recreational racer/newbie. Pullstart engine are frustrating and pretty pointless. 200mm class is just as expensive and complex as 1/8 and cars are not nearly as durable as 1/8.

The 2wd are about the same price as full out 4wd 1/8 car. This is going to make it a difficult sell as a new class.

2-

They dont share many common parts with most other 4wd versions. Again track or hobby shop or distributer will need to carry a second line of parts just for this car.

3-

Basically only going to be used for racing at your local club/track as other tracks are not looking to adopt this formula.

For the 2wd to work multiple tracks in an area would need to adopt this as intro class,start a series, and supplier would have to offer chassis kit at attractive price for new racers along with spec engine. Spec engine is the easy part as Novarossi has a nice 3port engine that is super cheap and will last a long time in this type of chassis.

I was trying to put out feelers to start a "sportmans class" using standard 4wd 1/8 car with a inexpensive engine. Used car are widely available and would also be attractive for newbie or experienced racers that dont have the budget to run open 1/8 due to cost of engine tires etc.

The traxxas slash concept worked for offroad as it is cheap, durable, handles pretty good all things considered. Just wish their was a similar solution for onroad.

I am open to suggestions on how to make a intro 1/8 class work...please help...every year gets harder to get new people into onroad due to the cost and speed of the vehicles. Future of tracks and hobby depends on getting new faces!

Cheers
Jamie

J.Gonzalez 10-27-2009 01:33 PM

check out this car also...

http://www.wrc-racing.com/en/index_rc-cars_en.php

J.Gonzalez 10-27-2009 01:38 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Trick car from sprint rc

djmachinist 10-27-2009 01:38 PM


Originally Posted by wingracer (Post 6527746)
I would love to run this class. I know Garen has brought the Motonica into the states for those that wanted one.

I think I will pursue getting the Motonica P8C. I will talk to Garen. Even if nobody else jumps in, I'll have fun running the thing in practice. I may even try to get one of the DFX cars with the cool diffuser. The diffuser may not work, but it really looks cool!

Dale :nod:

djmachinist 10-27-2009 01:55 PM


Originally Posted by senna555 (Post 6527864)
Trick car from sprint rc

Senna555,

I agree the initial cost of the cars will not be much different than the present crop of 4wd kits, However, the cost of maintaining these cars should be much cheaper. The cars are super strong. They should be able to take a pretty hard hit. They require in Europe a Spec 21. RB and Novarossi both sell an engine for a street price of around $250.00. All drive train componets, engines, clutches, gears, etc. will last longer due to less stress on the drive
trains. You wont have to grind away your tires trying to maintain tire ratios.
You wont have to spend $500.00 to $800.00 for a competive engine. My two
Murnan Flash 21's cost me $800.00 a piece. Great engines but lets get real!!:nod:

Dale

Roelof 10-27-2009 02:26 PM

2 Attachment(s)

Originally Posted by senna555 (Post 6527864)
Trick car from sprint rc

Pics made by me from last weekend, I have spoken the guy and is devellopped in a project from Serpent.

motojon 10-27-2009 03:02 PM

For us that already have an 8thscale making a simple diff to replace the solid should be an easy cost effective option

garen 10-27-2009 03:16 PM

The Motonica P8C 2wd costs over $100 less than the 4wd car. It does share a bunch of parts with the 4wd car- rear body mount, h-arms, rear uprights, front knuckles, bumper, front body mount, axles, brakes, pulleys/gears, and hardware. A combo pack with engine will be available soon.
The 2wd cars are fine with cheap/slow motors. Next year's VOX line of engines from Motonica will include a basic 3 port engine which should sell for less than $200. Tires last longer, less parts to break and maintain. Lack of shocks and certain adjustments makes it less confusing, although maybe not so much easier to drive, but still easier to build and learn. With the constant rise of engine prices, this may not be as far fetched as one would think. For this class to come back I think it's going to have to start at the local/grassroots level and grow from there.

djmachinist 10-28-2009 07:35 AM

4 Attachment(s)
Ok, I have purchased two Motonica P8C kits from Garen, i hope to have them soon!

I also will try to purchase an DFX brand car from France. This car is the one that comes with the cool rear diffuser. The DFX company sent me some pictures: The last pic is with a cut down diffuser to trim some of the downforce out of the rear of the car. They tell me this thing really works!

J.Gonzalez 10-28-2009 08:32 AM

When you get pricing info and contact info for the dfx car please pm me the info.

Jamie

1/8 oldschool 10-28-2009 08:38 AM

Check it out
 
A website dedicated to this subject past and present www.rcretro.com

Serpent-Dan 10-28-2009 09:55 AM

A friend of mine converted a Serpent 950R into a 2wd with a diff and full suspension car looked real good.

1/8 oldschool 10-28-2009 05:55 PM

Jamie, I've decided to purchase one of these chassis over the winter and will be running it at CONTROLFREAKZ next season , even if it's in the open class with the 4WDs. I feel this is what must be done for these cars to become popular here in the U.S. - drivers to buy them and race in any available class they can.

garen 10-28-2009 06:37 PM

I have no idea what the rules for the 2wd pan class are in Europe. I have to assume that the cars must have a fixed type suspension, meaning no shocks, solid type arms. I know the old ROAR 2wd class allowed for full suspension cars. If there is to be a new class with a set of universal rules, I think to keep things simple and costs down, the cars should probably be 'pan' type cars without the suspension systems. A 3 port engine rule is probably not a bad idea either.

wingracer 10-28-2009 06:41 PM


Originally Posted by garen (Post 6534300)
I have no idea what the rules for the 2wd pan class are in Europe. I have to assume that the cars must have a fixed type suspension, meaning no shocks, solid type arms. I know the old ROAR 2wd class allowed for full suspension cars. If there is to be a new class with a set of universal rules, I think to keep things simple and costs down, the cars should probably be 'pan' type cars without the suspension systems. A 3 port engine rule is probably not a bad idea either.

Agreed. While I like suspension, the appeal to me for this class is the rugged, reliable, low maintenance design and cheap motors. I love full blown, balls to the wall 1/8th scale racing but it is a LOT of work.

Serpent-Dan 10-28-2009 06:44 PM

The only problem with this is we too many cry babies that can only drive 4wd cars so i dont see it getting big in the states.Its a shame though cause even with a 3port these cars will be fast. JMO :)

J.Gonzalez 10-29-2009 03:46 AM

No suspension / pan car is the way to go. The car are very simple to build and would be attractive to a new racers or budget racer that does not have the time to dedicate setup with suspension and tires.

That is the problem with the gt cars is they dont handle well out of the box and require alot of work in addition to the fact they are overly complex for a newbie.

Another thing that is nice about such a simple car hobby shop/track could offer it as a race roller (add body and engine). The car looks to go together quickly and as a track director I would have no problem volunteering my time to preassemble a couple kit to get people on the track.

I think they will handle ok without suspension. I saw an old rc250 run on brick hard 30 year old tires and it was not horrible so with correct shore tire,3port engine, proper modern body they will work just fine.

For those that are in the northeast and are interested in this class feel free to pm me and perhaps if we have enough local interest (3 guys wanting 3 kits) I can further look into carrying or importing this type of car thru the track hobby shop (www.controlfreakz.com).

If we have the initial interest/purchase I can convince the track owner to carry this type of car.

Cheers

djmachinist 10-29-2009 04:44 AM


Originally Posted by senna555 (Post 6535972)
No suspension / pan car is the way to go. The car are very simple to build and would be attractive to a new racers or budget racer that does not have the time to dedicate setup with suspension and tires.

That is the problem with the gt cars is they dont handle well out of the box and require alot of work in addition to the fact they are overly complex for a newbie.

Another thing that is nice about such a simple car hobby shop/track could offer it as a race roller (add body and engine). The car looks to go together quickly and as a track director I would have no problem volunteering my time to preassemble a couple kit to get people on the track.

I think they will handle ok without suspension. I saw an old rc250 run on brick hard 30 year old tires and it was not horrible so with correct shore tire,3port engine, proper modern body they will work just fine.

For those that are in the northeast and are interested in this class feel free to pm me and perhaps if we have enough local interest (3 guys wanting 3 kits) I can further look into carrying or importing this type of car thru the track hobby shop (www.controlfreakz.com).

If we have the initial interest/purchase I can convince the track owner to carry this type of car.

Cheers

Yes, a complete roller would be nice, Actually Motonica is going to offer a kit with a Novarossi based engine (VOX) included according to their website.

Dale

djmachinist 10-29-2009 05:21 AM

French national race Oct. 2009
 
Just look at these cars go! You would not know you were viewing a 2WD race!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRXze...eature=related

djmachinist 10-29-2009 08:00 AM


Originally Posted by 1/8 oldschool (Post 6534085)
Jamie, I've decided to purchase one of these chassis over the winter and will be running it at CONTROLFREAKZ next season , even if it's in the open class with the 4WDs. I feel this is what must be done for these cars to become popular here in the U.S. - drivers to buy them and race in any available class they can.

Old school,

I am thinking along the same lines as you, I think I'm going to run this car in the open 4WD class next year here in Texas. I was'nt going to win the Southwest Series no matter what I run, but if I manage a respectable showing with this class of cars, who knows it may turn a few heads.

Dale

garen 10-29-2009 08:26 AM

If you guys are able to generate interest, I'll work with you/track owners to get the cars at a good price to help the class grow. I might just get one myself and see if it attracts racers here in So Cal.

motojon 10-29-2009 08:35 AM

Why buy a new kit, cant there be a way to make a diff that will fit in the 4WD car already being made. Theoretically it would cost less for the manufactures

JLock 10-29-2009 08:37 AM

Do they make a touring car styled 1/8th scale bodies anymore? If so, why not run the 2wd 1/8th scale as a touring car class? That way, you can make a distinction between the 2wd and 4wd class just like it used to be in the discontinued 235mm class (2wd ran the touring car bodies and 4wd ran the lola bodies). Just a thought.

Juan

djmachinist 10-29-2009 08:43 AM


Originally Posted by JLock (Post 6536886)
Do they make a touring car styled 1/8th scale bodies anymore? If so, why not run the 2wd 1/8th scale as a touring car class? That way, you can make a distinction between the 2wd and 4wd class just like it used to be in the discontinued 235mm class (2wd ran the touring car bodies and 4wd ran the lola bodies). Just a thought.

Juan

Juan Buddy, with all due respect, It will be a cold day in he... I run a sedan body on a 1/8 scale car of any kind!!!;)

Dale

PS Hope to see you at the "Gulf Coast Gran Prix" We will get you a pit Man!!!

djmachinist 10-29-2009 08:52 AM


Originally Posted by motojon (Post 6536881)
Why buy a new kit, cant there be a way to make a diff that will fit in the 4WD car already being made. Theoretically it would cost less for the manufactures

The idea here is to keep this a "Pan Car class". Simple, Stong and Cheap to produce. Why convert a 4wd suspension car when manufactures like Motonica already offer this car along with several other Manufactures in Europe that also offer these type of cars. The trick here is to get enough grass roots interest to convince our existing importers to bring these cars into the US.

Dale

JLock 10-29-2009 08:53 AM


Originally Posted by djmachinist (Post 6536905)
Juan Buddy, with all due respect, It will be a cold day in he... I run a sedan body on a 1/8 scale car of any kind!!!;)

Dale

PS Hope to see you at the "Gulf Coast Gran Prix" We will get you a pit Man!!!

At one time a few years back, there was a class in Europe (I think) that ran an 1/8th scale touring car. I know that they made bodies for them because there is a custom painted one at Indy RC in Garland hanging on their wall on display. But hey, it was just an idea. Why not be different or do something a bit different than the current running class? What fun would it be to run lola bodies on a 2wd with a 3-port (thinking on the spec class line)? I was just thinking outside the box a little.;)

As far as the Gulf Coast race, I will not be able to make it. I have to work that weekend. Got to make up the cash I had to spend on getting the Trailblazer fixed about 2 months ago (cost half an M note). Good luck to you and the other that will be able to run at the race.:nod:

djmachinist 10-29-2009 09:00 AM


Originally Posted by JLock (Post 6536946)
At one time a few years back, there was a class in Europe (I think) that ran an 1/8th scale touring car. I know that they made bodies for them because there is a custom painted one at Indy RC in Garland hanging on their wall on display. But hey, it was just an idea. Why not be different or do something a bit different than the current running class? What fun would it be to run lola bodies on a 2wd with a 3-port (thinking on the spec class line)? I was just thinking outside the box a little.;)

As far as the Gulf Coast race, I will not be able to make it. I have to work that weekend. Got to make up the cash I had to spend on getting the Trailblazer fixed about 2 months ago (cost half an M note). Good luck to you and the other that will be able to run at the race.:nod:

Sorry to here that Juan, you will be missed.
Dale

JLock 10-29-2009 09:05 AM


Originally Posted by djmachinist (Post 6536967)
Sorry to here that Juan, you will be missed.
Dale

I know, you will miss me being the lap traffic/back marker that I tend to be at times!!!:lol::lol: Maybe I can make this race next year.:D

djmachinist 10-29-2009 09:11 AM


Originally Posted by JLock (Post 6536981)
I know, you will miss me being the lap traffic/back marker that I tend to be at times!!!:lol::lol: Maybe I can make this race next year.:D

No, I will miss the show you put on when you try to pit yourself in the Main!!!!:D Take care buddy,

Dale

Team Kamikaze 10-29-2009 09:12 AM


Originally Posted by JLock (Post 6536886)
Do they make a touring car styled 1/8th scale bodies anymore? If so, why not run the 2wd 1/8th scale as a touring car class? That way, you can make a distinction between the 2wd and 4wd class just like it used to be in the discontinued 235mm class (2wd ran the touring car bodies and 4wd ran the lola bodies). Just a thought.

Juan

Yes I have the Z33 (350Z) it's a GT coupe, but at least it's not a Can Am (Lola) body.

motojon 10-29-2009 09:42 AM


Originally Posted by djmachinist (Post 6536943)
The idea here is to keep this a "Pan Car class". Simple, Stong and Cheap to produce. Why convert a 4wd suspension car when manufactures like Motonica already offer this car along with several other Manufactures in Europe that also offer these type of cars. The trick here is to get enough grass roots interest to convince our existing importers to bring these cars into the US.

Dale

Im guessing though here in the US if i can just add a $50 part and run it on my original chassis great...... If the class doesnt take off then im out $50 with a small paper weight. If I spend $400+ and the class doesnt take off then i got a slightly bigger more expensive paper weight. Also simple goes only so far eventually we want more of this or more of that to get them to handle here in the US. Alot of our tracks arent smooth like oversees so a full suspension 2wd might be the only thing that will work here for example the old Vector....i believe $500 for 2wd $550 for 4wd if you got tired of one you could run the other and keep all the same stuff and use the left overs off of the 4wd people

JLock 10-29-2009 10:35 AM


Originally Posted by Team Kamikaze (Post 6537007)
Yes I have the Z33 (350Z) it's a GT coupe, but at least it's not a Can Am (Lola) body.

Do you have a pic of it that you can post later? I am curious to see what it looks like.

I am one that would like the class to be different from the 4wd lola body class. I guess I am like that because of the 235mm class that I use to run before it was abandoned. I loved the 2wd class 235mm over the 4wd class because 2wd forced you to learned to setup your car and to become a better driver (learn throttle control). Plus, I like to be different every now and again and having touring car bodies (real ones, not made up ones or Mazdas and fake Stratuses) would put a distinction between 2wd and 4wd 1/8th scale classes. But, that is just my opinion.

T-BODZ Terry B. 10-29-2009 10:42 AM


Originally Posted by JLock (Post 6536886)
Do they make a touring car styled 1/8th scale bodies anymore? If so, why not run the 2wd 1/8th scale as a touring car class? That way, you can make a distinction between the 2wd and 4wd class just like it used to be in the discontinued 235mm class (2wd ran the touring car bodies and 4wd ran the lola bodies). Just a thought.

Juan

WOW! You just brought back some not so fond flashbacks of my 2WD Thorp and RC300BD Pan Cars with
Greenwood Corvette, Lancia Stratos or Ligier-Matra GT Bodies! A huge difference in handling from the
Lola & Elfin CanAm bodies at the time. I remember 1 season in the very early 80's that they had a GT race
out at the Ranch Pit Stop in Pomona, CA & Outlaw RC in San Bernardino, CA every month. What a struggle!


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