52LikesEuropean 2wd 1/8th pan car on-road Classic class
04-28-2013, 02:00 PM
#2611
Joe here is my take. I have been working on this design for a couple of years and keep getting stuck in the same places. I'll try to get you some parts and drawings if you are interested. Some compromises will need to be made to be able to pull this together but I am willing to help. I have some ideas and possible connections to get a kit like this built but it will take some doing!!
Modern wheels are no problem, Even I've made the adapters! (For the front and rear.) The issue is the Bal Diff axle and gears. (if you can eliminate the diff, you only need to find gears. (CNC lathe would be best way to make axle parts.)
Brake Parts are also not an issue. I've made them with a hole saw out of G-10 in 1/8th and 1/16th inch thick. Shoes are steel, SS or hardend is best with two holes. Even had two disks and three shoes!
Front end is where I deviate from Associated. Nothing against their front end but Phil's favorite Delta is much simpler to make. It's a 1/2" aluminum bar with king pins sticking up at each end and two holes to hold it down. It can be drilled or milled for lightness or looks. Caster can be milled into the mounting or angled shims can be used. Camber is a little trickey, you can drill the KP holes at the angle you want, bend them, or make a more complicated front end... I have a really simple steering block design, two piece like Associated but with trailing caster and a metric axle so you can just put bearings in the modern wheels and bolt them on. Much lighter than Associated too.
Clutch and gears are the biggest issues, to me, along with the diff. Using and off-road clutch would be fine but you need at least a 12 tooth or smaller imo. Remember without the belt reduction the spur has to be bigger to get a decent ratio, around 5:1 is the best I can figure out how to get.
I have some 12t bells but they don't seen to be very common. You can make bells with pinion stock and machine the gear to mate with the bell, it probably should be steel and hardened.
There is still the problem of the spur. I have not been able to find any industrial gears in the range needed...
Modern wheels are no problem, Even I've made the adapters! (For the front and rear.) The issue is the Bal Diff axle and gears. (if you can eliminate the diff, you only need to find gears. (CNC lathe would be best way to make axle parts.)
Brake Parts are also not an issue. I've made them with a hole saw out of G-10 in 1/8th and 1/16th inch thick. Shoes are steel, SS or hardend is best with two holes. Even had two disks and three shoes!
Front end is where I deviate from Associated. Nothing against their front end but Phil's favorite Delta is much simpler to make. It's a 1/2" aluminum bar with king pins sticking up at each end and two holes to hold it down. It can be drilled or milled for lightness or looks. Caster can be milled into the mounting or angled shims can be used. Camber is a little trickey, you can drill the KP holes at the angle you want, bend them, or make a more complicated front end... I have a really simple steering block design, two piece like Associated but with trailing caster and a metric axle so you can just put bearings in the modern wheels and bolt them on. Much lighter than Associated too.
Clutch and gears are the biggest issues, to me, along with the diff. Using and off-road clutch would be fine but you need at least a 12 tooth or smaller imo. Remember without the belt reduction the spur has to be bigger to get a decent ratio, around 5:1 is the best I can figure out how to get.
I have some 12t bells but they don't seen to be very common. You can make bells with pinion stock and machine the gear to mate with the bell, it probably should be steel and hardened.
There is still the problem of the spur. I have not been able to find any industrial gears in the range needed...
04-28-2013, 02:36 PM
#2612
Gears
32 pitch is what was used in early 1/12 (Jerobee and all) and some nitro 1/10 stuff, RC 10GT etc.
If you multiply the number of teeth by the pitch you get the pitch diameter (about half way between the OD and root of the teeth. So 2.620 OD minus
.100" (about the difference in dia between OD and PD as measured on an Associated gear) is 2.520 x 32 would be about 80 teeth. 2.520 x 24 would be around 60 teeth, much closer
04-28-2013, 02:50 PM
#2613
Gear sources
Rapid gear looks to me like a BIG outfit making BIG stuff. I bet there are similar places that could help tho. Moody used to make lots of special gears for his stuff including worm gear sets!! Sure miss that man!!!
04-28-2013, 05:49 PM
#2614
I looked at ServoCity and Rapid Gears. ServoCity's gears appear to be Kimbro or Kimbro clones, at higher prices! I may try using 32pitch gears as I mentioned in an earlier post, not sure of the strength but it solves the small tire/big gear problem, and a few others!
Rapid gear looks to me like a BIG outfit making BIG stuff. I bet there are similar places that could help tho. Moody used to make lots of special gears for his stuff including worm gear sets!! Sure miss that man!!!
Rapid gear looks to me like a BIG outfit making BIG stuff. I bet there are similar places that could help tho. Moody used to make lots of special gears for his stuff including worm gear sets!! Sure miss that man!!!
04-28-2013, 08:29 PM
#2615
Good points all. We're really looking at different things tho. I'm trying to work on something cheap and simple, that you don't have to relay on others for part and pieces. The "Modern Pans" you guys are building would be difficult and expensive to duplicate, imo. Where do you get BMT and obsolete Kyosho parts when you need 'em? lol In order to stay simple you have to give up on adjustments and stuff.
Got another idea for the rear....
Got another idea for the rear....
04-28-2013, 08:32 PM
#2616
I'll check out the Servocity and rapid gears.
32 pitch is what was used in early 1/12 (Jerobee and all) and some nitro 1/10 stuff, RC 10GT etc.
If you multiply the number of teeth by the pitch you get the pitch diameter (about half way between the OD and root of the teeth. So 2.620 OD minus
.100" (about the difference in dia between OD and PD as measured on an Associated gear) is 2.520 x 32 would be about 80 teeth. 2.520 x 24 would be around 60 teeth, much closer
32 pitch is what was used in early 1/12 (Jerobee and all) and some nitro 1/10 stuff, RC 10GT etc.
If you multiply the number of teeth by the pitch you get the pitch diameter (about half way between the OD and root of the teeth. So 2.620 OD minus
.100" (about the difference in dia between OD and PD as measured on an Associated gear) is 2.520 x 32 would be about 80 teeth. 2.520 x 24 would be around 60 teeth, much closer
here it is...
http://www.wmberg.com/catalog/pdf/b00k17-20.pdf
04-28-2013, 08:53 PM
#2617
Yes
..Ned.i have a WMberg catalog and it has a pitch/OD chart in it for spur gears..Near as my young eyes can tell is the Associated spurs are 24 pitch???..Could that be correct???
here it is...
http://www.wmberg.com/catalog/pdf/b00k17-20.pdf
here it is...
http://www.wmberg.com/catalog/pdf/b00k17-20.pdf
04-28-2013, 09:32 PM
#2618
Cost vs. Complexity
Matt, I think you may be on to something here.
Take the whole 4wd rear end, add an off road gear diff (too hard to make a ball diff to fit in there) and make up solid spacers to locate the rear hubs.
You could make a new pan or maybe cut the existing one off and make the front part out of fiberglass.
Put on the non-suspension front end of your choice. Using the existing hubs and piviot balls if you wish.
Know of any decent 4wd's available for trade or real cheap up there? I'd like to try it! Something that you can still get some parts for would be best....
When I come up for the MidWest Series next month, we need to do some bench racin'!
Take the whole 4wd rear end, add an off road gear diff (too hard to make a ball diff to fit in there) and make up solid spacers to locate the rear hubs.
You could make a new pan or maybe cut the existing one off and make the front part out of fiberglass.
Put on the non-suspension front end of your choice. Using the existing hubs and piviot balls if you wish.
Know of any decent 4wd's available for trade or real cheap up there? I'd like to try it! Something that you can still get some parts for would be best....
When I come up for the MidWest Series next month, we need to do some bench racin'!
04-28-2013, 09:37 PM
#2619
04-29-2013, 04:48 AM
#2620
Matt, I think you may be on to something here.
Take the whole 4wd rear end, add an off road gear diff (too hard to make a ball diff to fit in there) and make up solid spacers to locate the rear hubs.
You could make a new pan or maybe cut the existing one off and make the front part out of fiberglass.
Put on the non-suspension front end of your choice. Using the existing hubs and piviot balls if you wish.
Know of any decent 4wd's available for trade or real cheap up there? I'd like to try it! Something that you can still get some parts for would be best....
When I come up for the MidWest Series next month, we need to do some bench racin'!
Take the whole 4wd rear end, add an off road gear diff (too hard to make a ball diff to fit in there) and make up solid spacers to locate the rear hubs.
You could make a new pan or maybe cut the existing one off and make the front part out of fiberglass.
Put on the non-suspension front end of your choice. Using the existing hubs and piviot balls if you wish.
Know of any decent 4wd's available for trade or real cheap up there? I'd like to try it! Something that you can still get some parts for would be best....
When I come up for the MidWest Series next month, we need to do some bench racin'!
ground the teeth off the gear... Going to take a spare rear pulley
I have left from my serpent 4wd car and see if I can shave the
internal webbing and bolt it to the Mugen case...
Best case scenario is we use modern parts with
little modifications.... Off road gear diff unit should be
able to be mounted between 4wd bulkheads with the
correct bearing.... Just have to space out bulkheads
to make fit
04-29-2013, 06:28 AM
#2621
Ned... I have some gear diffs out of a mugen 1/8 buggy... I already
ground the teeth off the gear... Going to take a spare rear pulley
I have left from my serpent 4wd car and see if I can shave the
internal webbing and bolt it to the Mugen case...
Best case scenario is we use modern parts with
little modifications.... Off road gear diff unit should be
able to be mounted between 4wd bulkheads with the
correct bearing.... Just have to space out bulkheads
to make fit
ground the teeth off the gear... Going to take a spare rear pulley
I have left from my serpent 4wd car and see if I can shave the
internal webbing and bolt it to the Mugen case...
Best case scenario is we use modern parts with
little modifications.... Off road gear diff unit should be
able to be mounted between 4wd bulkheads with the
correct bearing.... Just have to space out bulkheads
to make fit
04-29-2013, 06:34 AM
#2622
Tech Regular
Associated used 24 Pitch 20 degree pressure angle (cut enough of the damn things for alternate ratio's for RC500's 
) pretty sure Delta was the same. In the early scratchbuild days we got gears from a company called "Stock Gear" ,in fact the early Delta cars cars just used modified stock gears. Pretty sure all the european and asian cars use the metric module gear system.
) pretty sure Delta was the same. In the early scratchbuild days we got gears from a company called "Stock Gear" ,in fact the early Delta cars cars just used modified stock gears. Pretty sure all the european and asian cars use the metric module gear system.
04-29-2013, 08:44 AM
#2623
04-29-2013, 08:47 AM
#2624
Gears
Associated used 24 Pitch 20 degree pressure angle (cut enough of the damn things for alternate ratio's for RC500's ) pretty sure Delta was the same. In the early scratchbuild days we got gears from a company called "Stock Gear" ,in fact the early Delta cars cars just used modified stock gears. Pretty sure all the european and asian cars use the metric module gear system.
) pretty sure Delta was the same. In the early scratchbuild days we got gears from a company called "Stock Gear" ,in fact the early Delta cars cars just used modified stock gears. Pretty sure all the european and asian cars use the metric module gear system.
04-29-2013, 08:58 AM
#2625
Pics
Ned... I have some gear diffs out of a mugen 1/8 buggy... I already
ground the teeth off the gear... Going to take a spare rear pulley
I have left from my serpent 4wd car and see if I can shave the
internal webbing and bolt it to the Mugen case...
Best case scenario is we use modern parts with
little modifications.... Off road gear diff unit should be
able to be mounted between 4wd bulkheads with the
correct bearing.... Just have to space out bulkheads
to make fit
ground the teeth off the gear... Going to take a spare rear pulley
I have left from my serpent 4wd car and see if I can shave the
internal webbing and bolt it to the Mugen case...
Best case scenario is we use modern parts with
little modifications.... Off road gear diff unit should be
able to be mounted between 4wd bulkheads with the
correct bearing.... Just have to space out bulkheads
to make fit
