1/8th scale Motonica
10-23-2007, 10:42 AM
#121
maybe you smoking hierba ?
10-23-2007, 05:56 PM
#124
Tech Apprentice
1. Lamberto Collari - 193 Laps in 1:00:06.035
2. Andrea Cristiani - 193 Laps in 1:00:10.657
3. Chris Tosolini - 193 Laps in 1:00:12.287
4. Adrien Bertin - 191 Laps in 1:00:00.086
5. Mark Green - 190 Laps in 1:00:16.087
6. Daniele Ielasi - 189 Laps in 1:00:04.449
7. Massimo Fantini - 188 Laps in 1:00:8.629
8. Yuya Sahashi - 169 Laps in 1:00:17.426
9. Walter Salemi - 143 Laps in 46:52.817
10. Dario Balestri - 121 Laps in 45:26.248
why 72 laps behind top 3 driver. car slo? or no good.
10-23-2007, 06:24 PM
#125
10-23-2007, 06:34 PM
#126
Tech Apprentice
10-23-2007, 06:45 PM
#129
Tech Adept
10-23-2007, 08:08 PM
#131
Garen Dude, YOU ARE AWESOME!!! Thanks a million for your set up sheet! I will have to look it over real close. The problem I had at the Nats was is wanting to pivot. The worst corner at that track for me was the one right in front of the drivers stand. You know where your driving straight towards the stand and then you need to slow down and make a right and then a left.
I did everything I could to dial out traction everywhere, but that car was just too stuck to the ground. The hardest tires I had I think were 40's all around. It was my first time driving on a high bite track and wow! TRACTION forever!
If I was comfortable enough, I could have taken most of the track at full speed, but I didn't have BIG enough cahunas, because I didn't have a ton of extra parts in case of a BIG wreck. That's when I also found out how stoute that car is. The only real "weak" part of the car I found were the pivot balls would bend. Never broke a thing with a few HARD hits. Anyway, that car wouldn't slip to save it's life. But not good for the tighter corners. I would actually pitch into that corner so hard that it litteraly would push out the aluminum pivot ball holder out of the rear hub carrier. Treads and all. Now that's a lot of g's. I think I went through three of those things and lost the aluminum pieces. It was also due to my driving style as well. Was use to the Serpent and NEVER found that kind of traction, EVER. A big no no I found was that I was using the Shadow body. It worked so well for the club races and didn't realize that body would create that much down force. Oh well, live and learn.
I don't understand the full concept of roll center yet, and you need to for that car for sure. I seem to get the understanding backwards. Like lower roll center means you raise the lower rear arms by taking out shims? I don't understand of roll center means putting it closer to the CG or to the ground. And the CG is higher then the ground.
I messed with taking out the front shims (didn't have 1 mm) but didn't know what to do about rear so left the 2mm shims in top and bottom. speedracer1bp gave me a hand and that helped the changes he made. Well, you know me, I can ramble on for pretty much ever.
So I will get a hold of you later bro. Need to talk to you man. Cool bro. Later!
I did everything I could to dial out traction everywhere, but that car was just too stuck to the ground. The hardest tires I had I think were 40's all around. It was my first time driving on a high bite track and wow! TRACTION forever!
If I was comfortable enough, I could have taken most of the track at full speed, but I didn't have BIG enough cahunas, because I didn't have a ton of extra parts in case of a BIG wreck. That's when I also found out how stoute that car is. The only real "weak" part of the car I found were the pivot balls would bend. Never broke a thing with a few HARD hits. Anyway, that car wouldn't slip to save it's life. But not good for the tighter corners. I would actually pitch into that corner so hard that it litteraly would push out the aluminum pivot ball holder out of the rear hub carrier. Treads and all. Now that's a lot of g's. I think I went through three of those things and lost the aluminum pieces. It was also due to my driving style as well. Was use to the Serpent and NEVER found that kind of traction, EVER. A big no no I found was that I was using the Shadow body. It worked so well for the club races and didn't realize that body would create that much down force. Oh well, live and learn. I don't understand the full concept of roll center yet, and you need to for that car for sure. I seem to get the understanding backwards. Like lower roll center means you raise the lower rear arms by taking out shims? I don't understand of roll center means putting it closer to the CG or to the ground. And the CG is higher then the ground.
I messed with taking out the front shims (didn't have 1 mm) but didn't know what to do about rear so left the 2mm shims in top and bottom. speedracer1bp gave me a hand and that helped the changes he made. Well, you know me, I can ramble on for pretty much ever.So I will get a hold of you later bro. Need to talk to you man. Cool bro. Later!
10-23-2007, 10:43 PM
#132
Don't confuse roll center with c.g.
Roll center, simply put goes like this. Set your car on the table and allow the suspension to settle. Look at the suspension, front or rear. The more parallel the upper and lower arms are, the lower the roll center. The less parallel the upper and lower arms, the higher the roll center. You have to imagine lines going from the outer pivot balls to the inner pivot balls and extending on. In other words, say you are looking at the rear; the more shims you place under the lower arms, the more parallel it becomes with the upper arm. The same is true if you add shims to the upper arm. Generally speaking, the lower the roll center, the more grip. You ran 2mm shims on all the rear arms at the Nats (arms more parallel). If you look at my setup, I ran 1mm shims on all rear arms (arms less parallel). Less parallel = less grip (generally speaking). I think this is why you and others had a difficult time making the car rotate through the sweepers and 180's.
Here's another example. Empire racing makes front upper arm mounts for the Evolva. The Empire mount places the upper hinge pin a couple mm's lower than the stock Kyosho mount. This raises the front roll center which allows for slightly more aggressive turn in (more off throttle/braking steering), but less on throttle grip.
I ran 37's all weekend. Several drivers commented how well the car rotated. My fastest qual time was 16 laps 5:18, although twice I was on a 5:16 pace until the engine bogged as I was almost out of fuel. I pitched the car plenty hard in the turns, but did not experience the pivot ball nuts popping out.
Stiffening the rear bar helps too, which I did. Body selection probably helps too. I have not yet run the Shadow body, but I understand it is better suited for low bite conditions. I ran the Parma R11 and Central bodies, both were good. I will try all other bodies as soon as I can.
CG is the actual center of gravity of the car. It moves up and down as the suspension compresses and/or the car leans, as does the roll center, but they are not the same thing. Most, if not all cars, have a much lower front roll center compared to the rear. Do a google search on roll center and center of gravity...you'll spend days reading various articles.
There is still a bunch of stuff I have not yet tried such as different shock springs, changing front lower pivot ball settings, caster, rear body mount position, 40 shore tires, etc.
Roll center, simply put goes like this. Set your car on the table and allow the suspension to settle. Look at the suspension, front or rear. The more parallel the upper and lower arms are, the lower the roll center. The less parallel the upper and lower arms, the higher the roll center. You have to imagine lines going from the outer pivot balls to the inner pivot balls and extending on. In other words, say you are looking at the rear; the more shims you place under the lower arms, the more parallel it becomes with the upper arm. The same is true if you add shims to the upper arm. Generally speaking, the lower the roll center, the more grip. You ran 2mm shims on all the rear arms at the Nats (arms more parallel). If you look at my setup, I ran 1mm shims on all rear arms (arms less parallel). Less parallel = less grip (generally speaking). I think this is why you and others had a difficult time making the car rotate through the sweepers and 180's.
Here's another example. Empire racing makes front upper arm mounts for the Evolva. The Empire mount places the upper hinge pin a couple mm's lower than the stock Kyosho mount. This raises the front roll center which allows for slightly more aggressive turn in (more off throttle/braking steering), but less on throttle grip.
I ran 37's all weekend. Several drivers commented how well the car rotated. My fastest qual time was 16 laps 5:18, although twice I was on a 5:16 pace until the engine bogged as I was almost out of fuel. I pitched the car plenty hard in the turns, but did not experience the pivot ball nuts popping out.
Stiffening the rear bar helps too, which I did. Body selection probably helps too. I have not yet run the Shadow body, but I understand it is better suited for low bite conditions. I ran the Parma R11 and Central bodies, both were good. I will try all other bodies as soon as I can.
CG is the actual center of gravity of the car. It moves up and down as the suspension compresses and/or the car leans, as does the roll center, but they are not the same thing. Most, if not all cars, have a much lower front roll center compared to the rear. Do a google search on roll center and center of gravity...you'll spend days reading various articles.
There is still a bunch of stuff I have not yet tried such as different shock springs, changing front lower pivot ball settings, caster, rear body mount position, 40 shore tires, etc.
10-24-2007, 12:17 AM
#133
Don't confuse roll center with c.g.
Roll center, simply put goes like this. Set your car on the table and allow the suspension to settle. Look at the suspension, front or rear. The more parallel the upper and lower arms are, the lower the roll center. The less parallel the upper and lower arms, the higher the roll center. You have to imagine lines going from the outer pivot balls to the inner pivot balls and extending on. In other words, say you are looking at the rear; the more shims you place under the lower arms, the more parallel it becomes with the upper arm. The same is true if you add shims to the upper arm. Generally speaking, the lower the roll center, the more grip. You ran 2mm shims on all the rear arms at the Nats (arms more parallel). If you look at my setup, I ran 1mm shims on all rear arms (arms less parallel). Less parallel = less grip (generally speaking). I think this is why you and others had a difficult time making the car rotate through the sweepers and 180's.
Here's another example. Empire racing makes front upper arm mounts for the Evolva. The Empire mount places the upper hinge pin a couple mm's lower than the stock Kyosho mount. This raises the front roll center which allows for slightly more aggressive turn in (more off throttle/braking steering), but less on throttle grip.
I ran 37's all weekend. Several drivers commented how well the car rotated. My fastest qual time was 16 laps 5:18, although twice I was on a 5:16 pace until the engine bogged as I was almost out of fuel. I pitched the car plenty hard in the turns, but did not experience the pivot ball nuts popping out.
Stiffening the rear bar helps too, which I did. Body selection probably helps too. I have not yet run the Shadow body, but I understand it is better suited for low bite conditions. I ran the Parma R11 and Central bodies, both were good. I will try all other bodies as soon as I can.
CG is the actual center of gravity of the car. It moves up and down as the suspension compresses and/or the car leans, as does the roll center, but they are not the same thing. Most, if not all cars, have a much lower front roll center compared to the rear. Do a google search on roll center and center of gravity...you'll spend days reading various articles.
There is still a bunch of stuff I have not yet tried such as different shock springs, changing front lower pivot ball settings, caster, rear body mount position, 40 shore tires, etc.
Roll center, simply put goes like this. Set your car on the table and allow the suspension to settle. Look at the suspension, front or rear. The more parallel the upper and lower arms are, the lower the roll center. The less parallel the upper and lower arms, the higher the roll center. You have to imagine lines going from the outer pivot balls to the inner pivot balls and extending on. In other words, say you are looking at the rear; the more shims you place under the lower arms, the more parallel it becomes with the upper arm. The same is true if you add shims to the upper arm. Generally speaking, the lower the roll center, the more grip. You ran 2mm shims on all the rear arms at the Nats (arms more parallel). If you look at my setup, I ran 1mm shims on all rear arms (arms less parallel). Less parallel = less grip (generally speaking). I think this is why you and others had a difficult time making the car rotate through the sweepers and 180's.
Here's another example. Empire racing makes front upper arm mounts for the Evolva. The Empire mount places the upper hinge pin a couple mm's lower than the stock Kyosho mount. This raises the front roll center which allows for slightly more aggressive turn in (more off throttle/braking steering), but less on throttle grip.
I ran 37's all weekend. Several drivers commented how well the car rotated. My fastest qual time was 16 laps 5:18, although twice I was on a 5:16 pace until the engine bogged as I was almost out of fuel. I pitched the car plenty hard in the turns, but did not experience the pivot ball nuts popping out.
Stiffening the rear bar helps too, which I did. Body selection probably helps too. I have not yet run the Shadow body, but I understand it is better suited for low bite conditions. I ran the Parma R11 and Central bodies, both were good. I will try all other bodies as soon as I can.
CG is the actual center of gravity of the car. It moves up and down as the suspension compresses and/or the car leans, as does the roll center, but they are not the same thing. Most, if not all cars, have a much lower front roll center compared to the rear. Do a google search on roll center and center of gravity...you'll spend days reading various articles.
There is still a bunch of stuff I have not yet tried such as different shock springs, changing front lower pivot ball settings, caster, rear body mount position, 40 shore tires, etc.
So it appears that I was doing it totally backwards. Because I actually ran NO shims in the top front arms. And I think this was giving me less steering or even more rear traction depending on how you want to look at it. Unfortunately I am WAY tired and Zoned at the moment, time for bed, but I will print out your post untill it trully sinks in. But from what I already read with your post, it's starting to make more sence. Cool dude.
Thanks again. Sorry for not getting in touch this evening, but plan on giving you a call tomorrow to go over a few things.
Like a parts order and some questions Mark had for you plus whatever. Dude, he is getting impatient already for his car. Anyway bro, until then, take care and talk to you soon man. Later.
10-24-2007, 04:26 AM
#134
Tech Adept
Darren - You're not wrong in that CG and RC are linked, but Garen has the mechanical theory all there. It's actually easier to show on a drawing than to explain on a forum. If you get too confused, you can always ask me in the pits or through my email. Man, you're warping Mark's mind already 
, oh well, at least it's not serpent . I'll see ya next season.
, oh well, at least it's not serpent . I'll see ya next season.
10-24-2007, 07:34 AM
#135
Darren - You're not wrong in that CG and RC are linked, but Garen has the mechanical theory all there. It's actually easier to show on a drawing than to explain on a forum. If you get too confused, you can always ask me in the pits or through my email. Man, you're warping Mark's mind already , oh well, at least it's not serpent . I'll see ya next season.
, oh well, at least it's not serpent . I'll see ya next season. Which is cool with me. The Motonica rules BABY!!!!Anyway bro, with the RC and CG relation, I think I go overboard in my mind like most things and forget the "basic" theory involved. Another thing that mixed me up a bit is the fact that the Motonica changes the rear top arm of RC at the "hinge pin" location rather then out on the hub carrier. So where most cars add/remove shims to the rear hub carrier, I think you need to remove/add shims to get the same effect on the Motonica. Like totally the opposite. I think this is where my confusion started.
But anyway bro, thanks for dropping in and saying HEY!!! I will pick your brain more when we race together bro. Cool. But yes, Garen did describe it in a way it made more sence again to me. I actually did get out some paper and make changes to understand...or confuse myself last night.
Anyway bro, take care dude. Later man. PS...Serpent still rocks dude.