64LikesWHAT HAS KILLED THE NITRO GT CLASS IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA?
12-03-2017, 01:05 PM
#31
We will start with the S5, S4, S3 GRP's first. You have to bring them yourself in the original packages before the race or you have to buy them from the organisation. this were sponsoring comes in nice and handy. But again as mentioned before its not written in stone. Small changes to the rules is perfectly fine and even needed to keep a class alive. Rules apply for 1 year. No less, no more and every year the rules have to change just a bit to keep the spirit up whilst taking into account:
costs, applicability, availability, clarity, competitiveness and accessiblity.
Maybe next year we run a different tire as changing the controlled tires has not a huge negative side effect if you take the above into account.
Not only the tire rule may change. The above applies to all the rules. just use common sense.
w.
costs, applicability, availability, clarity, competitiveness and accessiblity.
Maybe next year we run a different tire as changing the controlled tires has not a huge negative side effect if you take the above into account.
Not only the tire rule may change. The above applies to all the rules. just use common sense.
w.
12-03-2017, 01:19 PM
#32
This is exactly the reason why manufacturers and distributors of events and/or should never and I mean never have direct involvement in determining the rules. Sponsoring events is perfectly fine but the continuiety of a class or series can only be guaranteed / executed by independent people who do not get paid direct or indirect by manufacturers.
They make use of the weakness of drivers with their new bling bling stuff making them believe they can win with it. Next thing what happens is the organisers get weak too as the lobby of the manufacturers will never stop. Its their bloodline and you can't blame them for doing so....the rest is history. Its the difference between an all out professional sport and amateur racing. Nothing wrong with both but if you want to keep a class alive you have to start and create it at the bottom and the only people who can do that are organisers with common sense who will not be influenced. Its oh so simple but most of the times difficult to execute.
w.
They make use of the weakness of drivers with their new bling bling stuff making them believe they can win with it. Next thing what happens is the organisers get weak too as the lobby of the manufacturers will never stop. Its their bloodline and you can't blame them for doing so....the rest is history. Its the difference between an all out professional sport and amateur racing. Nothing wrong with both but if you want to keep a class alive you have to start and create it at the bottom and the only people who can do that are organisers with common sense who will not be influenced. Its oh so simple but most of the times difficult to execute.
w.
12-03-2017, 01:37 PM
#33
Unfortunately, you will never get manufacturers and distributors out of being directly involved in making the rules for racing classes. If you look at IFMAR, ROAR, etc., who do you think already have their fingers in on the rules for the racing classes? Would it be great for people independent of manufacturers that understand racing r/c cars be in the position to make the rules, sure. But, as we know, that will never happen because of the almighty dollar is driving the decisions.
12-03-2017, 02:56 PM
#34
But you also do not want to limit too much in the free choice of the setup, it will scare off (new) drivers .
Take a look at our 1/10 competition. Stock motor with low noise Hipex exhaust, stock tires and once there was even a proposal of a stock body. Over the years several drivers did make a switch to the 1/8. Look at the drivers in Holland, outside the 20 listed on the nationals there are not much 1/10 clubdrivers left.
Also the current national "Serpent" GT competition is already preventing a real GT class, for sure when a real GT class will take the same position the 1/10 guys will force it to use the Hipex 2095 exhaust because they do not like the noise of the normal exhausts.
True that you do not have to follow the international organisers but going too far off you will outrule yourself. Going too much "stock" will create a high wall in performance, driving skils, setup skils and needed equipment if you want to go to larger races.
Take a look at our 1/10 competition. Stock motor with low noise Hipex exhaust, stock tires and once there was even a proposal of a stock body. Over the years several drivers did make a switch to the 1/8. Look at the drivers in Holland, outside the 20 listed on the nationals there are not much 1/10 clubdrivers left.
Also the current national "Serpent" GT competition is already preventing a real GT class, for sure when a real GT class will take the same position the 1/10 guys will force it to use the Hipex 2095 exhaust because they do not like the noise of the normal exhausts.
True that you do not have to follow the international organisers but going too far off you will outrule yourself. Going too much "stock" will create a high wall in performance, driving skils, setup skils and needed equipment if you want to go to larger races.
12-03-2017, 03:29 PM
#35
But you also do not want to limit too much in the free choice of the setup, it will scare off (new) drivers .
Take a look at our 1/10 competition. Stock motor with low noise Hipex exhaust, stock tires and once there was even a proposal of a stock body. Over the years several drivers did make a switch to the 1/8. Look at the drivers in Holland, outside the 20 listed on the nationals there are not much 1/10 clubdrivers left.
Also the current national "Serpent" GT competition is already preventing a real GT class, for sure when a real GT class will take the same position the 1/10 guys will force it to use the Hipex 2095 exhaust because they do not like the noise of the normal exhausts.
True that you do not have to follow the international organisers but going too far off you will outrule yourself. Going too much "stock" will create a high wall in performance, driving skils, setup skils and needed equipment if you want to go to larger races.
Take a look at our 1/10 competition. Stock motor with low noise Hipex exhaust, stock tires and once there was even a proposal of a stock body. Over the years several drivers did make a switch to the 1/8. Look at the drivers in Holland, outside the 20 listed on the nationals there are not much 1/10 clubdrivers left.
Also the current national "Serpent" GT competition is already preventing a real GT class, for sure when a real GT class will take the same position the 1/10 guys will force it to use the Hipex 2095 exhaust because they do not like the noise of the normal exhausts.
True that you do not have to follow the international organisers but going too far off you will outrule yourself. Going too much "stock" will create a high wall in performance, driving skils, setup skils and needed equipment if you want to go to larger races.
Your argument regarding "setup"? I guess you mean engine, manifold, muffler and tires. It's exactly those items where I want to put the limit on because these are besides your roller the most expensive parts of the car.
All other setup items like: clutch and gearing, diff and shock oil, springs, sway bar, shock position and your complete suspension can adjusted at will. What do you mean with limited?
w.
12-03-2017, 04:54 PM
#36
It's exactly those items where I want to put the limit on because these are besides your roller the most expensive parts of the car.
Yes, limiting costs is a good idea but the idea of running 5 port engines is already limiting the costs if the rule is much clearer about alowed modifications and retail prices, else (as it is now) prices can be still sky high with a 5 port engine converting it into the performance of a high end 9 port engine with all ceramics etc.
People want a free choice of engine. Not only because of a favour brand but also some difficulties the XRD brand has with mainly the onroad engines. And believe me, I do meassure a lot of timings and other dimensions and I can tell you manufacturers do change those specs from time to time without giving the product another name. Yes, stock is a difficult or even a wrong word but why then sticking to 1 engine and exhaust? Even from the 2095 exhaust there are several versions.....
With that the exhaust plays a role, not only the noise which is something that is a part of gas racing but also in performance, the current 2095 exhaust can be good for one engine but bad for the other and must not be a gamemaker/changer in an open competition. And it would be crazy if those 1/10 guys are telling the GT class what to use (as what they have done with the Serpent GT cup)
I do believe you are wrong that Serpent is not at their GT cup I believe it was setup with the help of one or two of the current drivers so they are there. But true, doing nothing is not making it better.
12-03-2017, 11:15 PM
#37
It is not about what YOU want. It is too stupid to say you know best for the yet not even started Dutch GT class.
Yes, limiting costs is a good idea but the idea of running 5 port engines is already limiting the costs if the rule is much clearer about alowed modifications and retail prices, else (as it is now) prices can be still sky high with a 5 port engine converting it into the performance of a high end 9 port engine with all ceramics etc.
People want a free choice of engine. Not only because of a favour brand but also some difficulties the XRD brand has with mainly the onroad engines. And believe me, I do meassure a lot of timings and other dimensions and I can tell you manufacturers do change those specs from time to time without giving the product another name. Yes, stock is a difficult or even a wrong word but why then sticking to 1 engine and exhaust? Even from the 2095 exhaust there are several versions.....
With that the exhaust plays a role, not only the noise which is something that is a part of gas racing but also in performance, the current 2095 exhaust can be good for one engine but bad for the other and must not be a gamemaker/changer in an open competition. And it would be crazy if those 1/10 guys are telling the GT class what to use (as what they have done with the Serpent GT cup)
I do believe you are wrong that Serpent is not at their GT cup I believe it was setup with the help of one or two of the current drivers so they are there. But true, doing nothing is not making it better.
Yes, limiting costs is a good idea but the idea of running 5 port engines is already limiting the costs if the rule is much clearer about alowed modifications and retail prices, else (as it is now) prices can be still sky high with a 5 port engine converting it into the performance of a high end 9 port engine with all ceramics etc.
People want a free choice of engine. Not only because of a favour brand but also some difficulties the XRD brand has with mainly the onroad engines. And believe me, I do meassure a lot of timings and other dimensions and I can tell you manufacturers do change those specs from time to time without giving the product another name. Yes, stock is a difficult or even a wrong word but why then sticking to 1 engine and exhaust? Even from the 2095 exhaust there are several versions.....
With that the exhaust plays a role, not only the noise which is something that is a part of gas racing but also in performance, the current 2095 exhaust can be good for one engine but bad for the other and must not be a gamemaker/changer in an open competition. And it would be crazy if those 1/10 guys are telling the GT class what to use (as what they have done with the Serpent GT cup)
I do believe you are wrong that Serpent is not at their GT cup I believe it was setup with the help of one or two of the current drivers so they are there. But true, doing nothing is not making it better.
"People want free choice of engine"...you mean you want free choice of engine together with a couple of others maybe but certainly not the lot. Why are you emphasizing on that point particular I wander? If you want free choice of engine go drive any international nitro class. I already mentioned an open class should not be mixed up with an amateur one.
It's all just a matter of choice trying to make the probability as high as one possible can to attract more GT drivers. A free of choice engine is a 100
% certain not going to contribute to that equation. Not only limiting costs is important. Again as mentioned before "accessbility" or easiness to enter the class is important as well.
The proof is in the eating and it will always be a compromise. People with more money, more time, more knowledge wanting more and people who don't are going to quit. It's the latter you want to prevent and not to please the addict....
w.
12-04-2017, 07:00 AM
#38
But you also do not want to limit too much in the free choice of the setup, it will scare off (new) drivers .
Take a look at our 1/10 competition. Stock motor with low noise Hipex exhaust, stock tires and once there was even a proposal of a stock body. Over the years several drivers did make a switch to the 1/8. Look at the drivers in Holland, outside the 20 listed on the nationals there are not much 1/10 clubdrivers left.
Also the current national "Serpent" GT competition is already preventing a real GT class, for sure when a real GT class will take the same position the 1/10 guys will force it to use the Hipex 2095 exhaust because they do not like the noise of the normal exhausts.
True that you do not have to follow the international organisers but going too far off you will outrule yourself. Going too much "stock" will create a high wall in performance, driving skils, setup skils and needed equipment if you want to go to larger races.
Take a look at our 1/10 competition. Stock motor with low noise Hipex exhaust, stock tires and once there was even a proposal of a stock body. Over the years several drivers did make a switch to the 1/8. Look at the drivers in Holland, outside the 20 listed on the nationals there are not much 1/10 clubdrivers left.
Also the current national "Serpent" GT competition is already preventing a real GT class, for sure when a real GT class will take the same position the 1/10 guys will force it to use the Hipex 2095 exhaust because they do not like the noise of the normal exhausts.
True that you do not have to follow the international organisers but going too far off you will outrule yourself. Going too much "stock" will create a high wall in performance, driving skils, setup skils and needed equipment if you want to go to larger races.
Fact is the fixed engine, exhaust and tires have made the class survive. The reason there are not a lot of club drivers in 1/10 is the same as for 1/8, there are not a lot of pure club racers in nitro period. It has nothing to do with rules in 1/10.
Actually all the current regulations were proposed by and voted for by the drivers themselves. In the last years no proposals have been made by any of the racers or clubs to change the engine regulation.
The use of the hipex exhaust has nothing to do with our dislike of noise. How do you come up with such a statement? It is used because of noise regulations at one of the dutch tracks, and creates in combination with a designated engine that costs €95! a level playing field for all.
When we introduced the engine and pipe rule 4 jears ago most drivers improved their personal best laptimes as the slight reduction in power made the cars easier to drive. Most of the current track records in the netherlands have been set with this engine and pipe combo.
The standardised tire rule means we all use the same, and you don’t need to bring lots of different shores and types to a specific track as we did in the past. Also this rule was voted with a high majority by the racers 3 years ago, and there is nobody that wants to change this, as again it levels the playing field and reduces costs.
For next season a second engine type, again a low cost version with similar performance, was voted into the rules. These 2 engines are used together in a German competition as well where their uses is about 50/50 for both types. We will see coming season how this works out.
Last edited by Julius; 12-04-2017 at 07:13 AM.
12-04-2017, 08:33 AM
#39
Sometimes you make valid points Roelof. This time however, is not one of them.
Fact is the fixed engine, exhaust and tires have made the class survive. The reason there are not a lot of club drivers in 1/10 is the same as for 1/8, there are not a lot of pure club racers in nitro period. It has nothing to do with rules in 1/10.
Actually all the current regulations were proposed by and voted for by the drivers themselves. In the last years no proposals have been made by any of the racers or clubs to change the engine regulation.
Fact is the fixed engine, exhaust and tires have made the class survive. The reason there are not a lot of club drivers in 1/10 is the same as for 1/8, there are not a lot of pure club racers in nitro period. It has nothing to do with rules in 1/10.
Actually all the current regulations were proposed by and voted for by the drivers themselves. In the last years no proposals have been made by any of the racers or clubs to change the engine regulation.
Be aware that the stockmotor and low noise exhaust is a MACH thing which was extended from clubracing to the nationals because most national drivers were members of the MACH. It was also tried to get it with the 1/8 nationals. Do not get me wrong, on clublevel I also like the idea of a clubmotor because many people will spend too much before they ever can drive an error free lap.
The use of the hipex exhaust has nothing to do with our dislike of noise. How do you come up with such a statement? It is used because of noise regulations at one of the dutch tracks, and creates in combination with a designated engine that costs €95! a level playing field for all.
The standardised tire rule means we all use the same, and you don’t need to bring lots of different shores and types to a specific track as we did in the past. Also this rule was voted with a high majority by the racers 3 years ago, and there is nobody that wants to change this, as again it levels the playing field and reduces costs.
For next season a second engine type, again a low cost version with similar performance, was voted into the rules. These 2 engines are used together in a German competition as well where their uses is about 50/50 for both types. We will see coming season how this works out.
12-04-2017, 09:01 AM
#40
Is it? I have heard that "survive" reason several times but we will never know otherwise. And to be honest, with an average of about 14 or even lower amount of drivers we can not say that it is alive and kicking.
Be aware that the stockmotor and low noise exhaust is a MACH thing which was extended from clubracing to the nationals because most national drivers were members of the MACH. It was also tried to get it with the 1/8 nationals. Do not get me wrong, on clublevel I also like the idea of a clubmotor because many people will spend too much before they ever can drive an error free lap.
Be aware that the stockmotor and low noise exhaust is a MACH thing which was extended from clubracing to the nationals because most national drivers were members of the MACH. It was also tried to get it with the 1/8 nationals. Do not get me wrong, on clublevel I also like the idea of a clubmotor because many people will spend too much before they ever can drive an error free lap.
On this you are wrong, it was one of the reasons to get rid of the 1/8 promo class and so far I was told by a shop owner also the reason why the current GT need to use the Hipex.
Meanwhile several tracks have new asphalt so it is wrong to say it comes from the stock setup. Even on the (due the low grip) currently much hated AMCA track people do drive faster laptimes than before.
As it is the same with the 1/8 but not done as equalisation but to prevent tire treatments. But the rule of using a fresh set every time comming on the track did cost most more than using an own tire, for sure the drivers in the lower class. The new rule of the possibillity of re-using the tires will be better but it will lower te control of not using other tires....
Your issue with cost of tires in 1/8 is also not valid. You had to buy 4 sets of tires for 3 qualifiers and a final. In theory you could make that with 3 sets of your own tires before. But now the tires that come off the car after a qualy can be used as practice tires at the next race. So the money is not lost.
Sadly with 2 or even more choices people will spend more to find out which one is faster.
12-04-2017, 09:08 AM
#41
I would like to say....make everyone run 50 or even 55 shore rubber. I raced the one hour long Byron Race (2 years ago already......) and the wear is very minimal. Car is actually slower for sure....but 1 set of tires can definitely last for a whole weekend of racing including Q and M.
12-04-2017, 09:26 AM
#42
I would like to say....make everyone run 50 or even 55 shore rubber. I raced the one hour long Byron Race (2 years ago already......) and the wear is very minimal. Car is actually slower for sure....but 1 set of tires can definitely last for a whole weekend of racing including Q and M.
12-04-2017, 11:00 AM
#43
Frankly, there are no need to limit the ENGINE and FUEL.....like someone mentioned, the GT used engine, are WAY WAY WAY cheaper then it used to. $300 pico or Novarossi 5 ports ROAR legal engine is GOOD enough to race against $800 modified OS. Those who need a modified one are usually need to race the "big boys" and it is what it is....
Tires.......run 50/55s will save the game. Cause one set of those will definitely good enough to run 4 rounds of Q and 1 or 2 hours of main..........yes, 1 set.
And because of the 55s.........$800 OS engine is going to give you a TOKYO DRIFT event.........you will ended up power it down to something it will work with the 55s. A regular 5 ports off road engine will get it to work out just fine.
Chassis...........anything should be able to run. EXCEPT BELT TYPE CONVERSION. Isn't it there is a Italian brand that has a GT that is using the typical belt ON ROAD conversion for GT.......? That is just STUPID.
BODY...............why the LOLA TYPE body is considered GT? Whos idea is that...? Apparently, those LOLA type bodies are very popular over Europe and Asia.......if that is what they want, should they allow FOAM...? If that is what they want........should they race 1/8th OPEN..? Why GT.
Just my 0.02
Tires.......run 50/55s will save the game. Cause one set of those will definitely good enough to run 4 rounds of Q and 1 or 2 hours of main..........yes, 1 set.
And because of the 55s.........$800 OS engine is going to give you a TOKYO DRIFT event.........you will ended up power it down to something it will work with the 55s. A regular 5 ports off road engine will get it to work out just fine.
Chassis...........anything should be able to run. EXCEPT BELT TYPE CONVERSION. Isn't it there is a Italian brand that has a GT that is using the typical belt ON ROAD conversion for GT.......? That is just STUPID.
BODY...............why the LOLA TYPE body is considered GT? Whos idea is that...? Apparently, those LOLA type bodies are very popular over Europe and Asia.......if that is what they want, should they allow FOAM...? If that is what they want........should they race 1/8th OPEN..? Why GT.
Just my 0.02
12-04-2017, 11:58 AM
#44
Ive never ran this class, and Ive never had any interest in it, my classes are 1/8th IC and nitro sedan. I do, however, have an opinion.
Part of the problem is in the name itself, "entry level" class. It implies, to me, that you enter the class so you can learn how to drive(how to keep it in the middle), setup your car, learn to maintain it, learn a little bit of motor tunning, then you move on to a more advanced class, and these drivers see the 1/8th IC hauling ass down the straight and almost jumping out of corners and they want experience that, so they move on.
The other problem I see is manufacturer involvement. The fact that you have 100%, national and world level drivers competing in it defeats the purpose of the class. The reason for those drivers entering the class is because the manufacturer needs to showcase the product, what wins on sunday sells on Monday. The problem with that is that it leaves the "entry level" drivers without a chance of winning, or at least competing.
The only way for an "entry level" class to stay "entry level" is to outlaw sponsored drivers from it, leave it to the new guys.
Part of the problem is in the name itself, "entry level" class. It implies, to me, that you enter the class so you can learn how to drive(how to keep it in the middle), setup your car, learn to maintain it, learn a little bit of motor tunning, then you move on to a more advanced class, and these drivers see the 1/8th IC hauling ass down the straight and almost jumping out of corners and they want experience that, so they move on.
The other problem I see is manufacturer involvement. The fact that you have 100%, national and world level drivers competing in it defeats the purpose of the class. The reason for those drivers entering the class is because the manufacturer needs to showcase the product, what wins on sunday sells on Monday. The problem with that is that it leaves the "entry level" drivers without a chance of winning, or at least competing.
The only way for an "entry level" class to stay "entry level" is to outlaw sponsored drivers from it, leave it to the new guys.
12-05-2017, 02:58 AM
#45
As noted before, the engine rules work, as weird as some might say they are. For 250-300$ you can get a really good engine that runs with the best. I'd also like to see an approved body list. In my honest opinion, only Protoform has done a good job and all the other companies in the future should follow this way. All the other classes run ugly bodies anyway. let this one stay scale.