7775LikesKyosho Mini-Z Series
09-21-2018, 08:38 AM
#2056
Tech Prophet
iTrader: (9)
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Far south suburbs of Chicago area
Posts: 17,645
Trader Rating: 9 (100%+)
edit. Found it online. 7/8t pinion use same mount.
Last edited by Billy Kelly; 09-21-2018 at 09:46 AM.
09-21-2018, 09:11 AM
#2057
Cheers,
Jim
09-21-2018, 09:58 AM
#2058
All plastic mounts 7/8 use the same motor adapters.
Mini-z started as a way for kyosho to increase the market of their static models. If you could take the beautiful die cast model look, and actually drive it thre is more appeal.
I believe the mr01 was available before the xmod, which was originally designed for radio shack by HPI, and built to a price.
I have had some long debates with mleemor about the current and future state of the mini-z. I personally am in favor of the new technology, of brushless and lipo... however, one major point that always comes up that I wholeheartedly agree with, is that the newer tech is simply too fast for good racing.
this scale is best raced between the AAA 70t stock speed and AAA 50t speed. Faster than that, you really need alot of experience, setup knowledge, and reflexes to keep up with the car.
if slower motors can be designed, say a 2300kv, to run 2S and have a similar speed to a 70t on AAA, then moving forward could be much easier.
while I am not a mini-z purist so to speak, there are MANY things that kyosho did right. And by keeping the cars on AAA with their mabuchi white motor, it has kept the point of entry consistent speed wise amongst all of it's brushed offerings.
The limitation that we have right now, is more on the motors than on battery tech. The 130 brushed motors are all too fast 2S, and have durability concerns due to heat above 6v. 1S would be a more viable option, but the electronics would need a redesign to include a voltage booster for the RX and servo to maintain the quality of steering need at this scale.
having worked with not so local tracks in trying to best organize class structures, it is not easy to try to balance the power amongst old and new tech.
the only true raceworthy motor on 2S is a 3500kv motor, while mathematically similar to 5600kv or a 50t on AAA, there is a lot more bottom end with the 3500kv on 2S... they will top out at similar RPM, but acceleration out of the corners is completely different.
until motor tech can really catch up, it will be difficult to impossible to race them together. So, stock classes will be best suited to the mini-z, and mod classes dominated by the lipo aftermarket machines.
I raced with the legendary Joel Johnson once, and he couldn't keep up to a modified mini-z, but had a blast trying. That was a AAA car... fast forward to today, and it would really be difficult when one trigger pull is all that is needed to fly off the track.
I see mini-z making a rise again, but in order to have good racing the speeds must remain stock to pro stock.
the only real negative to using AAA is the maintenance required to keep them performing. I currently only use eneloop cells since they store well. Which is important to me due to my intermittent race schedule. The cells are slower, with a little less punch out of the corners and a lower amperage limit, but for 70t to 50t motors, you really don't need moreto be competitive. Mod motors that pull more than 1.5A, tend to overheat the cells and drastically reduce performance. I just don't have the time to cycle cells.
Mini-z started as a way for kyosho to increase the market of their static models. If you could take the beautiful die cast model look, and actually drive it thre is more appeal.
I believe the mr01 was available before the xmod, which was originally designed for radio shack by HPI, and built to a price.
I have had some long debates with mleemor about the current and future state of the mini-z. I personally am in favor of the new technology, of brushless and lipo... however, one major point that always comes up that I wholeheartedly agree with, is that the newer tech is simply too fast for good racing.
this scale is best raced between the AAA 70t stock speed and AAA 50t speed. Faster than that, you really need alot of experience, setup knowledge, and reflexes to keep up with the car.
if slower motors can be designed, say a 2300kv, to run 2S and have a similar speed to a 70t on AAA, then moving forward could be much easier.
while I am not a mini-z purist so to speak, there are MANY things that kyosho did right. And by keeping the cars on AAA with their mabuchi white motor, it has kept the point of entry consistent speed wise amongst all of it's brushed offerings.
The limitation that we have right now, is more on the motors than on battery tech. The 130 brushed motors are all too fast 2S, and have durability concerns due to heat above 6v. 1S would be a more viable option, but the electronics would need a redesign to include a voltage booster for the RX and servo to maintain the quality of steering need at this scale.
having worked with not so local tracks in trying to best organize class structures, it is not easy to try to balance the power amongst old and new tech.
the only true raceworthy motor on 2S is a 3500kv motor, while mathematically similar to 5600kv or a 50t on AAA, there is a lot more bottom end with the 3500kv on 2S... they will top out at similar RPM, but acceleration out of the corners is completely different.
until motor tech can really catch up, it will be difficult to impossible to race them together. So, stock classes will be best suited to the mini-z, and mod classes dominated by the lipo aftermarket machines.
I raced with the legendary Joel Johnson once, and he couldn't keep up to a modified mini-z, but had a blast trying. That was a AAA car... fast forward to today, and it would really be difficult when one trigger pull is all that is needed to fly off the track.
I see mini-z making a rise again, but in order to have good racing the speeds must remain stock to pro stock.
the only real negative to using AAA is the maintenance required to keep them performing. I currently only use eneloop cells since they store well. Which is important to me due to my intermittent race schedule. The cells are slower, with a little less punch out of the corners and a lower amperage limit, but for 70t to 50t motors, you really don't need moreto be competitive. Mod motors that pull more than 1.5A, tend to overheat the cells and drastically reduce performance. I just don't have the time to cycle cells.
09-21-2018, 01:45 PM
#2061
Tech Apprentice
They once did all their manufacturing in Japan then they started subletting to China who now sublets to third World countries even farther down the ladder in order to maintain profits. What we wind up with is currently a product that has no correlation to the original MR-03 except for maybe some of the original dimensions.
Did Kyosho produce the Mini Z in Japan? If so, when did it change?
09-21-2018, 01:53 PM
#2062
Tech Apprentice
How about the soon to be released EVO? Do you think that it could offer the best of both worlds regarding the overall speeds that these cars are now reaching (they'll have options for brushed/brushless and different motor power ratings)?
Could it offer something for those that would like a more 'stock speed' Mini Z, while also having a more powerful option available?
Could it offer something for those that would like a more 'stock speed' Mini Z, while also having a more powerful option available?
09-21-2018, 03:36 PM
#2063
When I speak of the 03 I mean the original iteration from seems like 8 or more years ago. Everything since then bolts onto the original chassis. There have been changes to the chassis top cover to allow for the additional baggage that the VE brings with it but essentially the chassis has remained the same except for the material it is made of. I am still running my two original chassis and have experienced no issues or concerns with them.
As far as the speed concerns go, they just plain don't need the additional power that a brushless provides. They are already too fast. if you are driving one and feel like it is slow then you are making your track either too big or too wide or both.
We currently are at the bottom of the curve with VE motors. They are for the most part all monopole motors so you cannot dial in any effective drag brake to help slow them down. To further compound the concerns we currently don't have an electronics package that will help resolve them. There are a couple of sensored VE packages out there but currently the ESC is rated lower than the motor so you can bet there are going to be failures. I just don't think the market should allow itself to be driven in the direction it is headed at the speed it is happening. The scale is horribly diluted right now with offerings that have no more promise of being around next year but competitors are spending willy nilly as they always do to be the first kid on the block to own a new paper wait.
A car, any RC car for that matter should not be judged on it's ability to achieve "vanishing point" at the end of the straightaway. if all you want to do is re kit the thing just put it on the floor and jump up and down on it. People continually forget to remember that when we compete we are going for distance over time. Overall speed has nothing to do with it so why is it so important. When pissing it is far more important to be accurate. Especially if you are living with a woman.
As far as the speed concerns go, they just plain don't need the additional power that a brushless provides. They are already too fast. if you are driving one and feel like it is slow then you are making your track either too big or too wide or both.
We currently are at the bottom of the curve with VE motors. They are for the most part all monopole motors so you cannot dial in any effective drag brake to help slow them down. To further compound the concerns we currently don't have an electronics package that will help resolve them. There are a couple of sensored VE packages out there but currently the ESC is rated lower than the motor so you can bet there are going to be failures. I just don't think the market should allow itself to be driven in the direction it is headed at the speed it is happening. The scale is horribly diluted right now with offerings that have no more promise of being around next year but competitors are spending willy nilly as they always do to be the first kid on the block to own a new paper wait.
A car, any RC car for that matter should not be judged on it's ability to achieve "vanishing point" at the end of the straightaway. if all you want to do is re kit the thing just put it on the floor and jump up and down on it. People continually forget to remember that when we compete we are going for distance over time. Overall speed has nothing to do with it so why is it so important. When pissing it is far more important to be accurate. Especially if you are living with a woman.
09-21-2018, 04:29 PM
#2064
Mleemor is accurate with the issues of the current motors. The lack of drag brake is something that has deterred me from the brushless tech. I am a high drag brake style driver, since I use it to adjust the attitude of the car mid corner.
I only have racing experience with the 3500kv on AAA, and the car felt very comfortable. I have test driven some faster cars, and even the push brakes are a little lacking. I really want to get some proper wheel time with the 5600kv on AAA and 3500kv on 2S to really comment on their feel.
my speculation would be that they would feel like an x-speed off throttle, and very wide front offsets would be needed to induce scrub and assist in slowing the car down on corner entrance to mid corner.
I love the idea of lipo with brushless, but we are still too early to really adopt the technology into current race programs due to the speed discrepancies.
slower racing is better, and really anything above a a 50t or 5600kv is just too fast for racing on anything but a super speedway. Until we can have slow brushless motors that can run the speed of AAA 70t cars, the tech is essentially relegated to modified classes.
there are more differences such as weight differences of the car's that really change the attributes of the cars. An mr03 aaa is generally 175g, while the aftermarket 2S cars are 145-150g with a similar setup. This really changes cornering abilities, and make it more than just a power delivery issue, but a mass balance issue as well. Even if the cars are the same speed on the straight, they won't be in the infield.
because these cars are relegated to modified classes, all thatis looked at is the highest speeds and lowest lap times, which further separates the difference between them and the mini-z making it harder to race together.
a brushless 2S 1/28 RC is faster than a aaa mini-z. Even a fully modified mini-z does not have as much acceleration due to the power to weight ratio of the fastest AAA car making it MUCH more difficult to pick up and race as a newcomer. The focus on development should go towards reducing the gap between first and last instead of increasing it by raising the skill gap to that which newer racers cannot even enter. Experienced pilots will adjust, but newer racers will break the car every race.
the general trend that I have seen is the faster the car, the less racers, and fewer happy ones at that. Slow cars let people race with each other rather than just drive around thre track like bumper cars.
I much prefer stock racing to modified. For that reason alone, I mostly stick with mini-z. I have a few side projects, an atomic AMZ, my own 2S Mini-z based chassis... but the AAA offers the appropriate speeds for the current brushed and brushless motors at the speeds that are best raced.
sorry for the walls of text
I only have racing experience with the 3500kv on AAA, and the car felt very comfortable. I have test driven some faster cars, and even the push brakes are a little lacking. I really want to get some proper wheel time with the 5600kv on AAA and 3500kv on 2S to really comment on their feel.
my speculation would be that they would feel like an x-speed off throttle, and very wide front offsets would be needed to induce scrub and assist in slowing the car down on corner entrance to mid corner.
I love the idea of lipo with brushless, but we are still too early to really adopt the technology into current race programs due to the speed discrepancies.
slower racing is better, and really anything above a a 50t or 5600kv is just too fast for racing on anything but a super speedway. Until we can have slow brushless motors that can run the speed of AAA 70t cars, the tech is essentially relegated to modified classes.
there are more differences such as weight differences of the car's that really change the attributes of the cars. An mr03 aaa is generally 175g, while the aftermarket 2S cars are 145-150g with a similar setup. This really changes cornering abilities, and make it more than just a power delivery issue, but a mass balance issue as well. Even if the cars are the same speed on the straight, they won't be in the infield.
because these cars are relegated to modified classes, all thatis looked at is the highest speeds and lowest lap times, which further separates the difference between them and the mini-z making it harder to race together.
a brushless 2S 1/28 RC is faster than a aaa mini-z. Even a fully modified mini-z does not have as much acceleration due to the power to weight ratio of the fastest AAA car making it MUCH more difficult to pick up and race as a newcomer. The focus on development should go towards reducing the gap between first and last instead of increasing it by raising the skill gap to that which newer racers cannot even enter. Experienced pilots will adjust, but newer racers will break the car every race.
the general trend that I have seen is the faster the car, the less racers, and fewer happy ones at that. Slow cars let people race with each other rather than just drive around thre track like bumper cars.
I much prefer stock racing to modified. For that reason alone, I mostly stick with mini-z. I have a few side projects, an atomic AMZ, my own 2S Mini-z based chassis... but the AAA offers the appropriate speeds for the current brushed and brushless motors at the speeds that are best raced.
sorry for the walls of text
09-21-2018, 06:18 PM
#2065
Tech Prophet
iTrader: (9)
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Far south suburbs of Chicago area
Posts: 17,645
Trader Rating: 9 (100%+)
Interesting points guys. Having watched 2s 5500kv run last time, it’s a sight. I do like that our group runs staggered starts. Avoiding the most likely first corner crash.
I see both sides on the potential cost to get started with MiniZ racing. I’d bet that the others in the stock class are all running $300-400 cars now. I’m the only true stock MiniZ. I run 1/10 with this group during summer. We get a lot of interest but loose them once hear anything over $400. I can’t see many rushing to spend that on small scale.
Have you heard anything about the “chase mode” offered on the AWD. Works like push to pass in Indy cars. They can be adjusted to allow only certain number of full power burst with brushless. I am interested in AWD. But not until decide on controller.
Kyosho Mini-Z MA-015 AWD DWS Chassis Set ASF2.4GHZ with Chase Mode SP Chassis Set
I see both sides on the potential cost to get started with MiniZ racing. I’d bet that the others in the stock class are all running $300-400 cars now. I’m the only true stock MiniZ. I run 1/10 with this group during summer. We get a lot of interest but loose them once hear anything over $400. I can’t see many rushing to spend that on small scale.
Have you heard anything about the “chase mode” offered on the AWD. Works like push to pass in Indy cars. They can be adjusted to allow only certain number of full power burst with brushless. I am interested in AWD. But not until decide on controller.
Kyosho Mini-Z MA-015 AWD DWS Chassis Set ASF2.4GHZ with Chase Mode SP Chassis Set
09-21-2018, 07:05 PM
#2066
Chase mode was sort of a gimmick. We never really used it. Basically it lowers the normal speed to about 90% throttle, then gives you the normal amount on command. Although you have a present amount of times you can use this boost every power cycle.
I like the AWD, although it is really only competitive with lower traction surfaces or unlimited motor. At which point, serious money needs be invested in the drivetrain. Differentials, pinions, and swingshafts all need upgrading to handle a lot of power. The rear swingshafts start slipping with anything more than a 50t.
on your small track, an AWD would be a lot of fun, but in a competitive environment, it is hard to be competitive against rwd cars. There is a drivetrain power loss, limited gearing, and weight penalty if motor is restricted to lower power. Small track, with lower corner speed they can shine... longer radius corners the AWD suffers due to higher center of gravity.
with that said, on the medium grip carpet track that I usedto race, the awd modified class was the fastest of the night. On RCP, it wouldn't be.
I have 4 MA-010... one is basically converted into an ma-015 with the DWS rear end. Now the ma-020 is the only available option, although I haven't tried one yet. The ma-01x use spring over kingpin front suspension where the ma-020 has upper a-arm front suspension and has a wide option.
I like the AWD, although it is really only competitive with lower traction surfaces or unlimited motor. At which point, serious money needs be invested in the drivetrain. Differentials, pinions, and swingshafts all need upgrading to handle a lot of power. The rear swingshafts start slipping with anything more than a 50t.
on your small track, an AWD would be a lot of fun, but in a competitive environment, it is hard to be competitive against rwd cars. There is a drivetrain power loss, limited gearing, and weight penalty if motor is restricted to lower power. Small track, with lower corner speed they can shine... longer radius corners the AWD suffers due to higher center of gravity.
with that said, on the medium grip carpet track that I usedto race, the awd modified class was the fastest of the night. On RCP, it wouldn't be.
I have 4 MA-010... one is basically converted into an ma-015 with the DWS rear end. Now the ma-020 is the only available option, although I haven't tried one yet. The ma-01x use spring over kingpin front suspension where the ma-020 has upper a-arm front suspension and has a wide option.
09-21-2018, 07:48 PM
#2067
Tech Adept
Before getting into mini-z, I had a cyclical hobby cycle of building bicycles in the spring and summer, and computers in the winter.
I'm located in NYC. I got into mini-z in 2004. I learned about xmods, then got a few mini-z clones called iwaver. These always glitched. I raced on a table top track in China town at HKS Hobby.
I finally got an mr02 enzo. This was shortly before HKS closed and relocated to California. I then found a new "home" track in staten island at Action RC. Over the next year or so, we went from a group that would have roughly 15-20 racers a week (race day was Saturday) to about 40 regular racers. We raced 4 classes each race day, and I commuted 3hrs each way via public transport every week with all of my gear on 3 subways and a ferry. I did this every weekend for 5 years.
We ran a 10 week points series, where 2 races were dropped, so the best 8 races points were tallied to be champion. The "stock" class was a pro stock, using x-speed, 50t, or atomic stock motors with stock electronics. We also ran a 70t narrow class requiring the bodies not to fit on an mr02, and require a narrow width front track. Then modified, F1, Nascar, or a spec body class would rotate each season to finalize the classes.
From around 2006 to 2011 we had roughly 5-6 tracks located within 35 minute drive from Manhattan. It was possible to race at one track Friday, another Saturday and a final Sunday...
In 2007 I joined the Atomic USA race team, for PR and part development. I raced nationally with the team, traveling to big events around the country.
My home track then changed to cruizin with rc's since action RC downsized and cruizin was less of a commute.
I raced with atomic for a few years until the team was disbanded in 2010, when I joined Reflex Racing and raced with them for a few years until they pulled out of the mini-z market to focus on larger scales. In 2013 my father became ill, and i had to take time away from the hobby to focus on family and a career change.
All of the local tracks have now closed, with the last one Maj's hobby shop closing last year right at the time which I was preparing to return to racing. I picked up a 1/10 f1, and gave it a spin... got my first with in my 2nd race, which was intense.
Next weekend I am traveling to Delaware to race mini-z in Wilmington. If anyone wants details of that race I would be happy to post them. November 3 there will be a trophy race at Tom's River HobbyTown in NJ on CRC black carpet.
the two highlights of my racing career were racing in the Carolina cup with mleemor, and qualifying for the A main in pan car in only one qualifying run at the 2010 world championships. I was planning to drop that class, but Sunday morning i quickly built a car, then drove the last qualifier. I broke in the main, but was happy with the result. I finished A4 in F1, with my reflex teammate winning in my primary car which I prepped for the race.
I still don't have a car, so most of my races I plan for using public transportation...
I'm located in NYC. I got into mini-z in 2004. I learned about xmods, then got a few mini-z clones called iwaver. These always glitched. I raced on a table top track in China town at HKS Hobby.
I finally got an mr02 enzo. This was shortly before HKS closed and relocated to California. I then found a new "home" track in staten island at Action RC. Over the next year or so, we went from a group that would have roughly 15-20 racers a week (race day was Saturday) to about 40 regular racers. We raced 4 classes each race day, and I commuted 3hrs each way via public transport every week with all of my gear on 3 subways and a ferry. I did this every weekend for 5 years.
We ran a 10 week points series, where 2 races were dropped, so the best 8 races points were tallied to be champion. The "stock" class was a pro stock, using x-speed, 50t, or atomic stock motors with stock electronics. We also ran a 70t narrow class requiring the bodies not to fit on an mr02, and require a narrow width front track. Then modified, F1, Nascar, or a spec body class would rotate each season to finalize the classes.
From around 2006 to 2011 we had roughly 5-6 tracks located within 35 minute drive from Manhattan. It was possible to race at one track Friday, another Saturday and a final Sunday...
In 2007 I joined the Atomic USA race team, for PR and part development. I raced nationally with the team, traveling to big events around the country.
My home track then changed to cruizin with rc's since action RC downsized and cruizin was less of a commute.
I raced with atomic for a few years until the team was disbanded in 2010, when I joined Reflex Racing and raced with them for a few years until they pulled out of the mini-z market to focus on larger scales. In 2013 my father became ill, and i had to take time away from the hobby to focus on family and a career change.
All of the local tracks have now closed, with the last one Maj's hobby shop closing last year right at the time which I was preparing to return to racing. I picked up a 1/10 f1, and gave it a spin... got my first with in my 2nd race, which was intense.
Next weekend I am traveling to Delaware to race mini-z in Wilmington. If anyone wants details of that race I would be happy to post them. November 3 there will be a trophy race at Tom's River HobbyTown in NJ on CRC black carpet.
the two highlights of my racing career were racing in the Carolina cup with mleemor, and qualifying for the A main in pan car in only one qualifying run at the 2010 world championships. I was planning to drop that class, but Sunday morning i quickly built a car, then drove the last qualifier. I broke in the main, but was happy with the result. I finished A4 in F1, with my reflex teammate winning in my primary car which I prepped for the race.
I still don't have a car, so most of my races I plan for using public transportation...
09-21-2018, 07:54 PM
#2068
Tech Adept
Mleemor is accurate with the issues of the current motors. The lack of drag brake is something that has deterred me from the brushless tech. I am a high drag brake style driver, since I use it to adjust the attitude of the car mid corner.
I only have racing experience with the 3500kv on AAA, and the car felt very comfortable. I have test driven some faster cars, and even the push brakes are a little lacking. I really want to get some proper wheel time with the 5600kv on AAA and 3500kv on 2S to really comment on their feel.
my speculation would be that they would feel like an x-speed off throttle, and very wide front offsets would be needed to induce scrub and assist in slowing the car down on corner entrance to mid corner.
I love the idea of lipo with brushless, but we are still too early to really adopt the technology into current race programs due to the speed discrepancies.
slower racing is better, and really anything above a a 50t or 5600kv is just too fast for racing on anything but a super speedway. Until we can have slow brushless motors that can run the speed of AAA 70t cars, the tech is essentially relegated to modified classes.
there are more differences such as weight differences of the car's that really change the attributes of the cars. An mr03 aaa is generally 175g, while the aftermarket 2S cars are 145-150g with a similar setup. This really changes cornering abilities, and make it more than just a power delivery issue, but a mass balance issue as well. Even if the cars are the same speed on the straight, they won't be in the infield.
because these cars are relegated to modified classes, all thatis looked at is the highest speeds and lowest lap times, which further separates the difference between them and the mini-z making it harder to race together.
a brushless 2S 1/28 RC is faster than a aaa mini-z. Even a fully modified mini-z does not have as much acceleration due to the power to weight ratio of the fastest AAA car making it MUCH more difficult to pick up and race as a newcomer. The focus on development should go towards reducing the gap between first and last instead of increasing it by raising the skill gap to that which newer racers cannot even enter. Experienced pilots will adjust, but newer racers will break the car every race.
the general trend that I have seen is the faster the car, the less racers, and fewer happy ones at that. Slow cars let people race with each other rather than just drive around thre track like bumper cars.
I much prefer stock racing to modified. For that reason alone, I mostly stick with mini-z. I have a few side projects, an atomic AMZ, my own 2S Mini-z based chassis... but the AAA offers the appropriate speeds for the current brushed and brushless motors at the speeds that are best raced.
sorry for the walls of text
I only have racing experience with the 3500kv on AAA, and the car felt very comfortable. I have test driven some faster cars, and even the push brakes are a little lacking. I really want to get some proper wheel time with the 5600kv on AAA and 3500kv on 2S to really comment on their feel.
my speculation would be that they would feel like an x-speed off throttle, and very wide front offsets would be needed to induce scrub and assist in slowing the car down on corner entrance to mid corner.
I love the idea of lipo with brushless, but we are still too early to really adopt the technology into current race programs due to the speed discrepancies.
slower racing is better, and really anything above a a 50t or 5600kv is just too fast for racing on anything but a super speedway. Until we can have slow brushless motors that can run the speed of AAA 70t cars, the tech is essentially relegated to modified classes.
there are more differences such as weight differences of the car's that really change the attributes of the cars. An mr03 aaa is generally 175g, while the aftermarket 2S cars are 145-150g with a similar setup. This really changes cornering abilities, and make it more than just a power delivery issue, but a mass balance issue as well. Even if the cars are the same speed on the straight, they won't be in the infield.
because these cars are relegated to modified classes, all thatis looked at is the highest speeds and lowest lap times, which further separates the difference between them and the mini-z making it harder to race together.
a brushless 2S 1/28 RC is faster than a aaa mini-z. Even a fully modified mini-z does not have as much acceleration due to the power to weight ratio of the fastest AAA car making it MUCH more difficult to pick up and race as a newcomer. The focus on development should go towards reducing the gap between first and last instead of increasing it by raising the skill gap to that which newer racers cannot even enter. Experienced pilots will adjust, but newer racers will break the car every race.
the general trend that I have seen is the faster the car, the less racers, and fewer happy ones at that. Slow cars let people race with each other rather than just drive around thre track like bumper cars.
I much prefer stock racing to modified. For that reason alone, I mostly stick with mini-z. I have a few side projects, an atomic AMZ, my own 2S Mini-z based chassis... but the AAA offers the appropriate speeds for the current brushed and brushless motors at the speeds that are best raced.
sorry for the walls of text
09-21-2018, 08:02 PM
#2069
Tech Adept
Mleemor is accurate with the issues of the current motors. The lack of drag brake is something that has deterred me from the brushless tech. I am a high drag brake style driver, since I use it to adjust the attitude of the car mid corner.
I only have racing experience with the 3500kv on AAA, and the car felt very comfortable. I have test driven some faster cars, and even the push brakes are a little lacking. I really want to get some proper wheel time with the 5600kv on AAA and 3500kv on 2S to really comment on their feel.
my speculation would be that they would feel like an x-speed off throttle, and very wide front offsets would be needed to induce scrub and assist in slowing the car down on corner entrance to mid corner.
I love the idea of lipo with brushless, but we are still too early to really adopt the technology into current race programs due to the speed discrepancies.
slower racing is better, and really anything above a a 50t or 5600kv is just too fast for racing on anything but a super speedway. Until we can have slow brushless motors that can run the speed of AAA 70t cars, the tech is essentially relegated to modified classes.
there are more differences such as weight differences of the car's that really change the attributes of the cars. An mr03 aaa is generally 175g, while the aftermarket 2S cars are 145-150g with a similar setup. This really changes cornering abilities, and make it more than just a power delivery issue, but a mass balance issue as well. Even if the cars are the same speed on the straight, they won't be in the infield.
because these cars are relegated to modified classes, all thatis looked at is the highest speeds and lowest lap times, which further separates the difference between them and the mini-z making it harder to race together.
a brushless 2S 1/28 RC is faster than a aaa mini-z. Even a fully modified mini-z does not have as much acceleration due to the power to weight ratio of the fastest AAA car making it MUCH more difficult to pick up and race as a newcomer. The focus on development should go towards reducing the gap between first and last instead of increasing it by raising the skill gap to that which newer racers cannot even enter. Experienced pilots will adjust, but newer racers will break the car every race.
the general trend that I have seen is the faster the car, the less racers, and fewer happy ones at that. Slow cars let people race with each other rather than just drive around thre track like bumper cars.
I much prefer stock racing to modified. For that reason alone, I mostly stick with mini-z. I have a few side projects, an atomic AMZ, my own 2S Mini-z based chassis... but the AAA offers the appropriate speeds for the current brushed and brushless motors at the speeds that are best raced.
sorry for the walls of text
I only have racing experience with the 3500kv on AAA, and the car felt very comfortable. I have test driven some faster cars, and even the push brakes are a little lacking. I really want to get some proper wheel time with the 5600kv on AAA and 3500kv on 2S to really comment on their feel.
my speculation would be that they would feel like an x-speed off throttle, and very wide front offsets would be needed to induce scrub and assist in slowing the car down on corner entrance to mid corner.
I love the idea of lipo with brushless, but we are still too early to really adopt the technology into current race programs due to the speed discrepancies.
slower racing is better, and really anything above a a 50t or 5600kv is just too fast for racing on anything but a super speedway. Until we can have slow brushless motors that can run the speed of AAA 70t cars, the tech is essentially relegated to modified classes.
there are more differences such as weight differences of the car's that really change the attributes of the cars. An mr03 aaa is generally 175g, while the aftermarket 2S cars are 145-150g with a similar setup. This really changes cornering abilities, and make it more than just a power delivery issue, but a mass balance issue as well. Even if the cars are the same speed on the straight, they won't be in the infield.
because these cars are relegated to modified classes, all thatis looked at is the highest speeds and lowest lap times, which further separates the difference between them and the mini-z making it harder to race together.
a brushless 2S 1/28 RC is faster than a aaa mini-z. Even a fully modified mini-z does not have as much acceleration due to the power to weight ratio of the fastest AAA car making it MUCH more difficult to pick up and race as a newcomer. The focus on development should go towards reducing the gap between first and last instead of increasing it by raising the skill gap to that which newer racers cannot even enter. Experienced pilots will adjust, but newer racers will break the car every race.
the general trend that I have seen is the faster the car, the less racers, and fewer happy ones at that. Slow cars let people race with each other rather than just drive around thre track like bumper cars.
I much prefer stock racing to modified. For that reason alone, I mostly stick with mini-z. I have a few side projects, an atomic AMZ, my own 2S Mini-z based chassis... but the AAA offers the appropriate speeds for the current brushed and brushless motors at the speeds that are best raced.
sorry for the walls of text
When I speak of the 03 I mean the original iteration from seems like 8 or more years ago. Everything since then bolts onto the original chassis. There have been changes to the chassis top cover to allow for the additional baggage that the VE brings with it but essentially the chassis has remained the same except for the material it is made of. I am still running my two original chassis and have experienced no issues or concerns with them.
As far as the speed concerns go, they just plain don't need the additional power that a brushless provides. They are already too fast. if you are driving one and feel like it is slow then you are making your track either too big or too wide or both.
We currently are at the bottom of the curve with VE motors. They are for the most part all monopole motors so you cannot dial in any effective drag brake to help slow them down. To further compound the concerns we currently don't have an electronics package that will help resolve them. There are a couple of sensored VE packages out there but currently the ESC is rated lower than the motor so you can bet there are going to be failures. I just don't think the market should allow itself to be driven in the direction it is headed at the speed it is happening. The scale is horribly diluted right now with offerings that have no more promise of being around next year but competitors are spending willy nilly as they always do to be the first kid on the block to own a new paper wait.
A car, any RC car for that matter should not be judged on it's ability to achieve "vanishing point" at the end of the straightaway. if all you want to do is re kit the thing just put it on the floor and jump up and down on it. People continually forget to remember that when we compete we are going for distance over time. Overall speed has nothing to do with it so why is it so important. When pissing it is far more important to be accurate. Especially if you are living with a woman.
As far as the speed concerns go, they just plain don't need the additional power that a brushless provides. They are already too fast. if you are driving one and feel like it is slow then you are making your track either too big or too wide or both.
We currently are at the bottom of the curve with VE motors. They are for the most part all monopole motors so you cannot dial in any effective drag brake to help slow them down. To further compound the concerns we currently don't have an electronics package that will help resolve them. There are a couple of sensored VE packages out there but currently the ESC is rated lower than the motor so you can bet there are going to be failures. I just don't think the market should allow itself to be driven in the direction it is headed at the speed it is happening. The scale is horribly diluted right now with offerings that have no more promise of being around next year but competitors are spending willy nilly as they always do to be the first kid on the block to own a new paper wait.
A car, any RC car for that matter should not be judged on it's ability to achieve "vanishing point" at the end of the straightaway. if all you want to do is re kit the thing just put it on the floor and jump up and down on it. People continually forget to remember that when we compete we are going for distance over time. Overall speed has nothing to do with it so why is it so important. When pissing it is far more important to be accurate. Especially if you are living with a woman.
09-21-2018, 08:40 PM
#2070
The 3500 and 5600kv models are a good speed on AAA, but once 2S is applied, its it's a whole different ball game. If we had appropriate ESC's to run 1S with 5v BEC, then the situation would be much better, able to utilize the higher 6500-9500kv motors to keep the speed in an appropriate level.