These are just some thoughts and observations I have made. This is said with full respect to those who run marcca, and is meant to be constructive in nature. I see lots of people who want to do stuff to help marcca talk about it all the time. Mostly at odd's with others though so nothing ends up changing. I also see lots of positive energy in the club currently and I think it should be exploited and built on.

Please feel free to flame, I know some will. but I sincerely am writing this just to get some of my thoughts in the open for other club members to comment on, correct me, or think about.

I question the whole "make everyone happy by making it so no one has to buy anything to run".

I mean... its a "Race" day on Saturday and Sunday at the track. a "Race" sorta infers competitors running within a rule set for a like goal. Yeh its crappy to make people buy something to run, but then again, why be in this hobby or be in a club if you are unwilling to buy anything to race in a spec class?

Its the whole dynamic classification system that Marcca uses, where week to week specs can drift or exceptions are made. Yes its "nice" but can also be sort of stressful or discouraging for those who DO spend the money and DO want to race competitively at the club level.

Currently I am fine racing what ever, because I am still a noob at this 1/12th action. But once competition starts to lag for what I want (as Stan said earlier - to get better you need to race against better people than you) what am I left with? going somewhere else? Is the club meant to be just a place for people to get started then go else where? if so then how do you sustain interest in some forms of racing if people all leave (ala the touring scene until late last year and this year?)

I am interested to see what comes from the elections coming up, because I think a shake up of the way the club works in some ways could make it a bit more of a inclusive venue more than an exclusive venue that it is currently. (ok now you may wonder why I worded it like that. Currently I see Marcca as a very "noob" exclusive club, few exceptions are made for mid level or high level competition, everything is geared to pamper or be comfortable for the low end of the scale for racing. Making a track the quality of Marcca's fairly inaccessible to the high end or mid level racers. There should be a way to structure the race days, or schedule to work for these.)

I understand the want to get the Oval folks in, the want to get the Heli folks in, because more people at the track the more money for the club (and thats better for all!). But what about building up the core scene for Marcca first and restructuring it into a regional level venue to bolster numbers and revenue before looking at those alternate sources?

The always hot button "schedule" of trucks Saturday and Sedans Sunday may not be the best thing for the club, and it may be something to look at (even though I know there is lots of objection for this) One thing I have seen from past experience is to get hung up on the past way's things have been as a reason not to change or fear of change is a bad way to go forward.

Being an event coordinator myself in a like field (some may say computer gaming and R/C have nothing in common but trust me, the "architecture" of planning an event like Marcca and the LAN stuff I do is VERY similar.) I can see some areas that if address Marcca could really accel. Maybe trying to shake off some cobwebs and start over a bit more fresh would help a good bit. Instead of just pulling this checkered past behind you which often more than not causes trouble for the club instead of helping it.

One may note that this is all coming from a guy who isnt even a member of Marcca so its irrelevant (but I have been participating in Marcca events for over a year now). Well Sunday I am planning on signing up because I want a say in the club and would like to see how much I could help it. (because I have an opinion or two, cant you tell? hehe ) Some would say - 'To try and rock the boat too much and you end up flipping the damn thing over.' But some times its good to get wet, and see what floats to the surface hehe I know there are some 20 year + members of Marcca, some that are in the club still and some that are not in the club or have gone into exile from the club in past years. So a post by a outsider or new guy with a big mouth may not go over well but I figured I would try.

Again please take this as a primer for a thread to do some CONSTRUCTIVE discussion about Marcca. I think NOW is a perfect time for this as the full member meeting on the 27th is coming up and elections in the club are coming up.

Also an item to discuss is what impact the new RCP dirt track may have on the Marcca Truck program?

No flames, here, all good points. I have a question for you, do you allow a guy that comes to a LAN party with a celeron 450 and a TNT1 card compete with a guy with a Athlon64 3500 with a geforce 6800 ultra? I'm not sure what I'm getting at here, but I think the question requires you to be reasonable. What about a guy with a basic 6800 vs a 6800 Ultra? Up to a point, FPS makes a difference. And when the new faster card comes out? Do you not let him play? It's all shades of gray, nothing is black and white. Quake 3 was awesome, in that you could set the handicap to compensate for better players. That made for some good even gaming. I think the big gaming events all have the same computers already there, you can change your control config, but that's it.

What did they do with auto racing when fuel injection was intoduced? I don't know, I'm not that old, but I'm sure it was about the same thing. The carburator guys probably complained that it's not fair and felt like thier skills at tuning were going to become useless, the fuelie guys probably complained that carburators are "obsolete" and F.I. should be allowed (no flames, on the obsolete usage please). It was only a few years ago that motorcycles adopted F.I., strange.

I'm all for enforcing the rules, but if 27T brushed motor is the only thing that can be used for stock, then I'm forced to buy what I consider is outdated, maintenence prone technology or I can't play. It's a conundrum. I already made that decision about Trackside and I am fully prepared to make the same decision if that's what MARCCA decides. I know people who are waiting to turn that last bit of copper off thier comm before they go brushless.

Oh, I also suggested a spec class before, but nobody was interested. Everybody seems to want to have some little secret they think will help them out. I'm all for having the hardware exactly the same. I just have a different idea of what the standard hardware should be.

I would also suggest that the truck classes actually make pretty good sense. My philosophy is that if you show up with some new fancy thing and start winning all the time, maybe you should consider moving up a class. At the same time, if you have the latest greatest technology and never win a race, you're probably just fine. I think I won one race at MARCCA, ever! Trucks level 2, I moved to 3 then 4 and haven't won a race since.

The problem with on-road is that there are like 15 different types of cars. and there's simply not enough room to have every combination of rubber, foam, 4 cell, 6 cell, mini, micro, 1/10, 1/12, F1, Stock, Mod, 19T, ect. Within F1 alone you have 4 combinations. So you have to make compromises within the popular classes. Or turn people away.

I'm no where near the top guys in 1/12 so I don't see what the problem is. If Vang and Stan and Shane are kicking my ass with 27T stock motors, what's the problem? If and when (I don't think it'll happen) I get to the point where I am obviously winning races because I have a faster car, I'll concede.

I know of three people with 4300 1/12 scale, if we are not allowed to run, at least in our own class, that will truely be sad. I got back in this hobby partly because of brushless. I will not buy into brushed. If I have to wait another 5 years, that's what I'll do.

And to the "high level" racers, since a used 1/12 scale and brushed set-up is so "cheap", just get another car for Trackside or wherever. Don't penalize me because you are so dedicated.

I think it is good to have a honest, open discussion and we will only move forward by doing so. I do think a good slap in the face and a restructure is a good thing every once in a while.

And remember this is a non-profit CLUB for fun, we are just big kids playing with little toy cars. I don't go to Trackside for more than one reason. And, ah, let's try to keep this within people who actually come and race at MARCCA consistantly.

Wow, that was almost like a term paper! Yuck!

Carpet trucks, I'm on the fence. I don't like the idea of the trucks abusing the carpet, but, from what I've seen so far this year, we are doing a great job of protecting the carpet. Above and beyond IMO. I think I prefer carpet trucks to true off road, though. It's closer to on-road than off-road.

I think RCP will take a few racers away, but not all by far.

I'm not a Marrca Member and have been turned off when I've said something in Marrca forums as an outsider, but a few obervations from afar:

Brushed motors are not obsolete, not by a long shot. And to claim otherwise is foolish. Are brushless motors the wave of the future? Very possibly. There's a term I was taught in my days of retail called "Market Saturation". It refers to how many people in an area have bought into a product or service. Right now Brushless motors are more of a novelity than anything else. We ran them for a good 4 months in Sedan at Trackside...after the Novak race the class died. Why? Eventhough there's a a benefit to being relatively maintence free, there is no horsepower advantage, so it's hard to just motor up on someone if you can't outdrive them. Its an odd concept, I admit. It's a similar reason as to why spec classes ultimately fail when it is a spec motor and battery class (and to some extent I think you're starting to see it with spec tire rules). While spec classes do keep costs down, to some people its just not as enjoyable. I loved racing in the Spec Car classes we used to have here. But when 2-3 teams started to be the winners every week it became frustrating. It boils down to the fact that some people are better drivers than others, and when you make the chassis, motor, and batteries the same, those with lower skill levels more often than not give up when they are constantly towards the back of the pack. I've seen it happen to too many people, and it sucks when people you consider friends stop showing up because they can't compete...

If you find yourself with 15 on road classes, something is wrong. For all intents and purposes, MARRCA is starting from scratch, or it seems that way. 2 other things from a retail background that might make sense to this. First of all, Perception becomes reality. If people are looking to bring a competitive program back to the club, like it USED TO HAVE, then it needs to run a serious race program. Another thing to remember is the KISS principle (keep it simple stupid). There is no reason, none, for a small club to have a ton of different classes. The more you diversify your program, the more watered down it will be. Start with the basics: Stock Rubber, Stock Foam, 1/12th scale, and maybe 1 other class. 1/12 scale should be 4 cell, its the class standard. Don't worry about pleasing everyone, because in the end you please no-one...

Gordon, I am not trying to pick on you, but your point of view is just skewed. You don't realize or don't want to that you are in the minority...not just possibly in the club but nationally as well. You feel that those running brushless would be penalized if forced to run brushed motors. I see the other side of the fense. Say someone has an old car laying around that they aren't using and decided to recycle the electronics out of there and stick them into a 1/12th scale car. But he'd have to invest another $225+ to run that class in order to buy a brushless. And what about the person who bought a Brushless, but bought the 5800 before for some other car. That person would be forced to purchase the much less popular 4300 to compete. Just because its convienient to you, doesn't mean its convienient to everyone. But if there are 3-4 people who want to run it, that's a great start to get the probram moving. BUT, if your goal is to grow the club, again dividing an already small class into 2 smaller classes doesn't make sense.

There are those of us out here who want to see Marrca flurish. The more strong tracks in the region, the better. That's the whole goal of this Series that starts this weekend, to get people out of their niches and to get them off their butts and travel to some of the other awesome tracks around us. I'm was guilty of that, but started traveling to other tracks earlier this year and have loved it. Road Rage in Green Bay..Awesome program, great racers, love going there. I raced at Oshkosh a few weeks ago and will be heading there again this weekend. Again, great facility and a lot of great people. The Den in Monroe, I haven't been there for their indoor program yet but was there for a nitro race this summer and will be there a few times this winter, same story. There is no reason why this can't be Marrca too. It's been Marrca in the past.

gordon and clegg, and yes even gary....you hit the nail on the head....


i do not want to go int the past, (or my past with marcca). but beileive it or not i too want to see marcca do well....you guys have hit on many of the things myself and others saw, or proposed to marcca through my, or our involvemt with the club, i was a board member from 94-95ish till i left in 2002....i ran unsucsesfully for club president(lost by 1 stinkin vote, nad they say gore was angry haha) my last year on the board i was the v.p. myself and others (most of whom have left, )tryed to explain the benifits of change or stayinf in the mainstream, but we got nowhere....i do see the face of marcca changing, and frankly i howyou can change, i also like what i see...but you need to have some frank discusions, with egos and the i vote for "what is best for me "left at the door, you can move forward,

but i my opinon good frank DISCUSION is a good thing, noflaming, or pointing fingers... but move forward....

on a nother point, and again this is not flaming, i thin the rcp indoor dirt track will reallt tap into the carpet truck racing, it is my opinion, but racing those trucks on the dirt is a blast, i cant wait till it opens, i think there will be some resistance at firs, but in the long run, people will change.....again, it is only my opinion.....


thanks for reading my rant....

matt

For people interested in guiding the future of MARCCA, nominations for the 2005 MARCCA board are being accepted from now until November 27. Voting will begin on November 27. You must be a MARCCA member to be nominated and to vote in the election. All board positions are up for election.

John(Gordon) I was going to quote your post but darn its long

So heres some answers or comments in sequence to what you wrote:

First - my post was not focused on the stupid brushed vs brushless item it was a general comment on the loose specs in ALL the classes at Marcca, and the willingness to make exceptions based on what people bring on a week to week basis.

1. Computer games have no relevance for this issue. Computer hardware is not limited in any form of gaming, but then again if you cant run the game that the tournament is playing (due to the GAME specs being higher than what you have or different) then you must invest in that change or not compete. I game a lot, and a faster machine than just a "good" box is rather moot on how it helps a gamer. Its all skill. Much in the way a tweaked stock motor or a regular stock motor is rather pointless when the driving is all about driver skill (one tap on a board could loose the gains that a tweaked motor gave the driver).


2. there are some comparisons to Carb to FI, but then again, I dont know many people who believe carbs are better in any way to fuel injection. Due to the fact you can tune and tweak a fuel injection map just as much if not more than a carb... and fuel injection starts in winter


3. Yes more classes hurt everyone (unless they are full or have a fair number of competitors). But then again you mention using the KISS principle which I fully agree with. If the rules are clear, solid, simple and non flexible it will give people a much more solid idea of what they need to compete. But then again you could dig your own grave on this one John because if Marcca was smart they would use the rule sets that the tracks around them support in order to hopefully pull some drivers from around the state on some weekends. Who didn’t want a spec class? I am all for it and Todd even posted specs on the 1/12th stock class BEFORE the season started! 27Turn motor, 4 cell, 8 min races.

4. the truck classes work great because Marcca is the only show that really does carpet truck racing like that. So there is no real status quo to follow or build on for that. And in honesty if all the tracks in the area would adopt a similar racing rank system that would be shared between the tracks it could make a cool on road class system. (But that has been tried in many forms of racing other than R/C and NEVER has worked in more than one venue from what I have seen.)

5. What? Why don’t you just go and buy another car and throw a brushed motor in it? I mean WE are the ones running in the spec class that was defined by Todd before the season started, why should WE buy more hardware to adapt to you? the logic doesn’t work there.

I don’t want this to turn into a 1/12th bash thing with brushed vs brushless because I believe the solution to this is in other parts of the club and restructuring of the club a bit.

Doh! I just realized I replied to Gary and Johns post at the same time hehe... (mixed up their posts when I was reading them to reply).

But I think the Brushless/Brushed arguement seems to represent a lot of what has been the problem. A minority of people want to run X, which is a rare class anywhere nationwide. Why alienate yourselves to something so specific? I think a spec tire rule does the same thing. Its exclusionary instead of being inclusionary. Here's how:

Driver A from X-Raceway decides he's going to travel to another track to race. His local club has no tire rules and he has 3 sets of Yokomo rubber tires to run.

Driver A travels 75 minutes to Y-Raceway to run, only to find out that they have a spec tire rule. To race he must not only pay for registration, but drop another $35 for a set of tires he'll use once.

Driver A decides he'll just forget the idea and leave....

Brushless 1/12th scale is a neat idea, I will give you that. But like I stated earlier there aren't enough people yet with competitive cars that own the Brushless systems, so you're dividing up an already small class. When the Brushless turnout started evaporating, guys just ran with stock. Now the good stock guys were turning faster laps than the brushless guys, but the brushless guys were a bit of a headache to deal with on track because they had so much rip. They were more in the way and out of control than actually competitive. I haven't seen the 4300 system run yet, so I don't know how it compares to a Stock motor. But when we ran Brushless Oval at the Paved oval nats, we were turning laps almost as fast as open modified...

I guess it needs to be decided if you guys want Marrca to be a "Racing" club or just an "R/C" Club...and move on from there.

Clegg, I'll take you on in Q3, you run a celeron 450 with a TNT1 and I use whatever I want. You see if that's any fun. Hardware makes a difference, to a point.

And if you think that hardware makes no difference, it's all driving skill, then why should anybody care if I use a stock brushless?

My logic, on getting two cars, is that it seems like it is an excuse for you guys to NOT get with the brushless program that other tracks don't allow it. So go ahead and get the nice maintenence free brushless system that MARCCA will allow(hopefully), and have a spare car for the few times you go to Trackside or whatever. I know it seems like I should be the one to get the spare car, except I won't buy into the old tech, I almost went down that road this spring at Trackside and ,thankfully, I stopped myself before I made a BIG mistake. The writing is on the wall, to me it would be like investing in typewritters in 1985, bad move.

And again, I could care less if you like turning comms, just don't make me turn comms. I was a machinist for 10 years, turning comms has absolutely no fascination to me what-so-ever. It's like changing oil in a car...

And, yes, this discussion should be about more that just brushed vs brushless. At this point, though, I feel this is the most important issue for me.

Gordon, let me ask, if someone was going to buy a brushless with competition in mind, why would they go for the 4300 instead of the 5800? I think that if you do want to do brushless, I would at least go with the more common of the 2 systems. That was the other thing that seemed kind of odd to me too was the choice of which system was used.

Yea, I'm really asking for alot here I know, but I got the 4300 because people were complaining about the 5800 even with the ESC set to stock mode. Now there should be nothing to complain about. ROAR rules discussing the stock brushless state, "which is equivalent to a existing ROAR legal 27 turn stock motor." So there it is. Let me play, please?

Cummon, you know what I meant. and as I said, if you dont have the hardware to play a game, you need to buy so you CAN play the game. And I talked about a tweaked stock motor (like one of the outlaw stocks that are epoxy balanced, or have a V2 top, etc... ) not a brushless "stock" which has more punch and speed than even a 19Turn plant. Takes a good bit of driver skill to make up for a power difference like that.

I think thats PRECISELY the issue here. This shouldn’t be about what one dude wants to run. That’s the very wrong mentality to use in a discussion about how to better the club in the long run. The discussions need to be more about the program as a whole. To me I could care less what the club comes down with for a spec for 1/12th. I will adapt to fit it, as long as it is within reason and able to be run other locations with minor changes.

Marcca shouldn’t be looking to build its own island of rules that make it vastly different than everyone around it just so a few people are happier. There are gains to be had in the big picture for sticking with the status quo no matter how good it is for a technology progression stance.

Also John, lets be serious here, what does one person matter? I mean if one person stopped coming but the rules changed and caused 5 people to come and race now... the club comes out ahead. No rules change could please everyone and the minority as Gary put it will ALWAYS have an uphill battle (and a futile one at that in most cases).

I think its wrong to make an argument for the betterment of the club in the future about one person or one issue. This is about many more things than that.

(and btw, i'd school you in Q3 hehe)

I agree with you that the club should not make the rules for one guy. But in this case I happen to be right And it's not "one of us", it's three of us...so far.

You guys can try to hold back the future, but the funny thing about the future is that it comes whether you like it or not.

I don't expect all you guys to go, "You know what John, your right, we've been stubborn holdbacks, what where we thinking? I'm gonna go out and get a brushless today!" But I do expect you see my point of view and see how I would not want to buy into the old tech and how I'm doing everything I can to make brushless as fair as possible.