Mark Mixon

iTrader: (3)

And you paid full retail over the counter? C'mon....Geez, if I worked in the RC industry, I'd expect to at least get a good portion of my gear at, or near cost and have my pick of the best available. All I'm sayin' is you can't make people save money, especially on performance oriented items. Carting, motocross, skiing, equipment is always factor and cost. All who agree to participate have to self regulate. Now if you tell me you can swing a deal so we can all buy a particular item (motors) at a reduced rate (like tires), I'm in. But I haven't heard that yet, only a rule limiting my choices and disallowing me to shop and buy competitively.

EAMotorsports

iTrader: (79)

Just to clarify....this is 100% FALSE!! Ive got a sintered rotor'd 13.5 LRP. The only difference I have seen is it runs cooler. LRP's bonded rotor is not the same as the cheap one that novak was using before.

EA

TimPotter

iTrader: (15)

Mark,

I don't know what to say. My perspective is that we limit the motor to one type of brushless motor, for the reasons we have stated earlier in this thread. If racers want to run thier brushed stuff.. ( and at this point it is still faster ) they can... and not sell all of thier equipment to race. Now if racers want to take the Brushless step, then by making a spec motor, we will eliminate some of the possible problems, AND ..POSSIBLY save the racer money over the year.

From the leadership perspective, I think 1 motor is a prudent step, as ROAR is still working on the brushless stock rules, we have the possiblity of a great varience in motors. While there will be "good" motors in a specific type of Brushless motor, they should not be at the point like HAVING to buy a paticualr brand of motor to compete....

Once again, this perspective is from the transition point of view. While I feel we as a series should be ahead of the curve, I do not feel we should take too big of step.

BullFrog

iTrader: (4)

I like the idea of one motor being used in both the 19t and stock/masters class.Mod is different open to every new brand out there. Until these new brands come out if we keep just one brand it will elimante the idea of buying all these motors to find the perfect one. Actually It would be Rotors ?Since Novak has this new rotor coming out it has a marking on it. We could say it's not legal but the other two are. Whats wrong with that? There would not be during the year to BL motor of the month club.We've got Novak and two rotors available- simple.Or you could say for the 19t class they can use the third rotor available from novak since it is a faster class.
does anyone have these new motors in there hands yet?Stay with the Novak for the next year.

Tim Kowal

iTrader: (9)

If brushed is still faster and we "limit" BL, then how many of the top racers will even switch? Why would they want to be put at a competitive disadvantage "speed wise" just to run BL? Yes it is almost mantainence free, but if it costs you 10th's of a second in speed per lap, will the top racers switch? For example, Dave Bowser has won the series this year already in 19 Turn, and has won both local events which we have had a mix of brushed and BL while he was using a brushed motor, why would he switch, if he felt like he was limiting his speed to a set spec motor that was not as fast as his current motor? Follow me? Or will others want to switch, if they know the fact that others still using brushed have a speed advantage?

It is already a spec class, in the fact that it is set at 19 turn or 10.5 BL, limiting it further seems wrong to me, again that is just my opinion. But I do feel strongly that if we limit it to one brand motor, it should be a "set in stone" clear rules what that exact motor has to be without variance and be available from the series at a discounted price. How can we tech the BL rotors? As they seem to be the biggest "speed" element in the BL equation, how can we tell them apart? If Novak already has bonded, sintered and a new sintered, how are we going to keep check on which one everyone is using? I know you can tell bonded and sintered apart, but what about the magnetic strength of the old vs new sintered vs upcoming newer rotors? Is this going to be a tech nightmare?

Again, I will go with whatever we decide as a group. And yes, I will be running BL even if it is slower than brushed, and limited to a single brand; I enjoy not having to cut comms and all that crap.........

Mark Mixon

iTrader: (3)

Tim P., I'm just being obtuse about the issue. I kinda like it when racers who are already sponsored, or partially funded in whatever way, are gonna help me save money. Is it about saving money? Or leveling competition? Or introducing new technology? Pick one...I've heard 'em all. Cars are $400.00, speedos $200, bodies $25.00, Tires $27.00 x 8 sets at least (even discounted), $25.00 per entry x 8 races, hotels $89.00 to $129.00, gas an easy $60.00 or more per race, batteries at least $40.00 a pack 6 or more needed, etc. etc. If it's leveling competition, I heartily understand, if it's taking a step to introduce new technology, I'm in. If it's to "help" the racers save money? That's nonsense, we all have thousands in equipment and by even attempting to run the series are already obligated for more. I enjoy running with the Master's guys and in doing so feel I'm at least attempting to self regulate. I know money alone cannot make me more competitive...that comes with track time, but a healthy dose of cash never hurts...fresh batts, new tires, new motors, so on. When you get just blown away on the straight, it ain't tuning, ability, or experience, that's motor and battery. EA, thanks for setting that straight for us, I know you've probably already tested 'em all. Are you tuning BL motors yet? If so I need a screaming BL 13.5. Cost is irrelevant, as long as it's in the (right) can! Oh, by the way, it's us B mainers that help pay for the rings and awards.

PaintingRoly

iTrader: (56)

This reminds me of years ago when we decided to go with "spec" tires, and people bitched and moaned about having to run a particular tire with no choice. Guess what almost every rubber tire race is some form of control tire.At that time I worked at a hooby shop and paid cost for my tires and couldn't wait for spec tires. Because on more than 1 occasion I showed up to a race with over $200 of worthless tires (I just mounted and glued up) only to find out that there was a new "fast" tire and I couldn't get any. I can so we this happening with BL motors. I'm gonna invest in a BL system for next year and I'll run the 13.5 or 10.5 of choice. If I'm down on horse power to a Brushed motor I'll just drop one of those in since every comp. BL system can run both.

John Malin

leave the brushless motors open by mfr. Let 10.5 run in 19t and 13.5 in stk. soon enough the brushless will be as fast or faster thus encouraging people to switch. Yes the current 19t champ ran brushed to win it but I know he is considering playing with brushless to see if that is the way he will go. The brushless thing is here guys. Get over it. I did. Soon enough we will all have to run brushless to be competitive.

TimPotter

iTrader: (15)

Mark, I have expressed why I feel it is important to do a spec BL. But to clarify, IMHO this the order of importance.

1. To clarify and try to alleviate potential issues with the impending roll out new technology. To ensure that old tech is still viable during the time it takes to move to BL only. To try and minimize racers issues.

2. To try and make the proper decisions that will ensure the viability of the class, and it's competition.

3. To try and ensure some kind of cost effectiveness.

4. To possibly get a deal for our racers so they can get motors at a reduced rate.

Sometimes trying to defend a persons perspective on an issue, the relevance of each issue tends to get skewed. while I think possibly saving the racers some money is important, I fully believe the competition side is much more paramount.


And Timmy... I think going with one motor will help us to be able to tech it more effectively ( how much moreso, I cannot answer at this point).

BullFrog

iTrader: (4)

If ya'll read the information about the new novak rotor it has a band around it to identify that it was different.So it's easier to tech the Novak stuff. Lets just stick with one and why do you worry about a discount to by a specfic motor. The price is all over the place. Didn't several shops have some special prices on the BL13.5 motor this year?Mark and everyone else the two orginal motors I got from Novak and one ESC are still running in both mine and Rocky cars.All we have done was install the sintered rotor with the bigger bb.I've cleaned it out once and it really was not dirty as compared to my old brushed motors.

Tim Kowal

iTrader: (9)

So Bill you have already upgraded the motor? With your wanting one motor, you wouldn't be allowed to do that. Would have sucked to be stuck with that bonded rotor for an entire season. How many of those would you have had to buy? at $30 a piece?
With that being said, Novak has already introduced 3 separate rotors for the same motor, right? And I bet you want to run the newest one, right? Why because it is faster, with less thermaling, right? So we limit the motor to which can / rotor? The series runs for almost a year..... So we are stuck with the same can/rotor combination for a year? We all know that the bonded rotor sucks, once it is overheated it is junk, so it would have to be replaced to be competitive. Just the rotor cost what $25 to $30 bucks. So are we saving money?

I too would hate it to turn into the motor of the month, but will it? It seems that that is what happened in brushed class already. How many different 19 turns are there? Let's see Orion/Peak, Checkpoint, Several Trinity, Reedy? Most of the faster guys, I bet have tried each and every one and maybe even run different ones based on the track conditions and or layout. And on top of that, I bet no one has run a single 19 turn for the entire series. And how many sets of $4 brushes does it take to compete each weekend in each brushed motor, and oh yeah what about the motor lathe and cans of motor cleaner. All this adds up in my opinion to at least the same as buying a few brushlesss motors per season. I am not as "smart" as Adrian in regards to what is in store for the BL market in the upcoming monthes, so I am unsure of which motor I would consider, but I have until the start of next season to decide, right?

Okay, I will pose one more question on this and that is all for my ranting. If we do decide on a single motor, which one and why? I know this is also going to draw a debate, right? Do we pick the cheapest, fastest, what? That is my reasoning to want it to be purchased from the series at an extremly discounted price, at least that way the ones that do not have a conection to low price on that particular model will not have to search for the best price, it will be available at the track.

We can and never will make everyone happy, that is why we vote on these matters and again I will go along with whatever the group decides.

On a side note, it seems everyone is always pushing for a real spec class that is severally limited, right? Why has this class never lasted in the series ? Seems like it always fades away and we are back to the classes we currently have.

Tim Kowal

iTrader: (9)

It is a "spec class" Roly, 19 turn or Stock. You are just limiting the spec even further when you set the motor to one manufacters brand. I agree with the tire rule, well maybe not limiting the sets of tires, but that's a whole different can of worms. So you are saving me money by specifying the BL that I must run, but if I am not fast enough, I can always go out and buy the 19 turn brushed of the month to compete. Seems kinda backwards thinking to me????

Please don't take my comments in a negative way, I do have the money to buy new equipmnent where some don't, but I am not trying to make things more expensive, I too would like to see the hobby more affordable for everyone, but as we all know this is "not " going to happen and limiting which motor we can run certainly isn't the answer to cost effective racing. I help out many racers that you know as much as I can, gas money, hotel rooms, parts, batteries, 1 or 2 run tires, etc. just so that I can have a fun weekend with some old friends once in a while, as I realize not everyone is in the same position in life as I am when it comes down to spare $$.

PaintingRoly

iTrader: (56)

On the Brushed motor forget about the costs of lathes cause most of the series regulars have had them for years (9 for me). As for brushed motors I can tell you Bowser runs a Kamodo almost all the time over the past 2 seasons. I'm pretty sure he's got checkpoint motors too, but he's got Reedy 19's just cause he went to the reedy race. Also guys build up collections of motors over years. If it's left open I can see having to buy next year alone a novak,LRP,Orion,Checkpoint,Trinity, and guys like Brood,EA, are also working on their own BL stuff. That 7 possible motors I could try. Brushed Stock you have 1 choice Trinity/Epic based stuff. 19 turn you have 4, but we know 2 are by far the most popular Trinity and Checkpoint.

I say go with one motor company. If that company upgades rotors or whatever allow that over the season. I do agree with you Tim that the series should have the motors (and rotors) for sale by the series, and that's why we'll probably go with Novak as I can see them doing this. Now this time next year we can revisit this after the flood of new technology has settled down a bit and allow more options.

As for classes starting limited and fading away I feel you have that backwards. Most classes started with out many restrictions and ended up with limits. For example when Touring cars first started (I was running them then so I know) You could run any body, tires, etc... all you needed was the minimum weight, 6 ells and a Motor. Now they're much more limited.

Tim Kowal

iTrader: (9)

You have ties with Novak so naturally you say go with Novak....Others may have ties with LRP or Orion, etc.......They will want them.........Trinity and Checkpoint, Mamba may or will also have a following.......

See where this is going............................

So naturally this has to be a multiple part vote.

First we haven't even voted in BL for the respective classes,
If BL is accepted; Next we have to decide if it open to all 10.5 or 13.5,
If we spec a certain brand, we have to decide on which brand,
If we pick a certain brand, are we going to allow upgraded parts to be added to that brand?

Wow, this is getting complicated isn't it? The newcomer to the series is going to be overwelmed by the rulebook, wait we don't have a rule book, do we?

If it is left to just adding any BL motor to the respective classes, sure would make vote and tech easier.

Back to my "Keep It Simple Stupid" Rule Again

Tim Kowal

iTrader: (9)

I meant really limited like legends or tamiya spec class, where all the cars are supposed to be equal, which we all agree just turns it into either a battery war or any aspect of the class that isn't limited by the rules.

Racing is competitive, so by nature we are all going to do whatever we feel is going to give us that slight advantage, be it the best batteries, newest motors, best tire, best traction compound, newest chassis, etc. If that wasn't the case, why are most of us running cars that are less than 6 monthes old at any given time?