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Old 02-04-2018, 08:38 PM   #121
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I bought a D10 from a eBay seller. Brand new sealed box, dropped shipped from VBC USA in Washington State I'm asuming. I really hate to be negative but this build started badly.
First the kit came with a D09 chassis so I'm building a car for asphalt with a aluminum chassis. Ok but I'm building so I'm OK my eBay seller is working on getting me a replacement chassis.
Second problem the steering arm had no threads tapped in one of the ears. No big deal I tapped thread's into it.
Third problem the hole in the servo mount last hole wasn't tapped all the way thru..
My fourth problem is my own race VTA and there tires are taller so my ride height was 12mm.in the rear the front end was 5mm. Any suggestions I designed a work around by making shock lowering on the a arms but I'm open to other ideas.
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Old 02-05-2018, 01:40 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by vivo quevas View Post
I bought a D10 from a eBay seller. Brand new sealed box, dropped shipped from VBC USA in Washington State I'm asuming. I really hate to be negative but this build started badly.
First the kit came with a D09 chassis so I'm building a car for asphalt with a aluminum chassis. Ok but I'm building so I'm OK my eBay seller is working on getting me a replacement chassis.
Second problem the steering arm had no threads tapped in one of the ears. No big deal I tapped thread's into it.
Third problem the hole in the servo mount last hole wasn't tapped all the way thru..
My fourth problem is my own race VTA and there tires are taller so my ride height was 12mm.in the rear the front end was 5mm. Any suggestions I designed a work around by making shock lowering on the a arms but I'm open to other ideas.
Contact the seller with your build issues and they should be able to help you out with all the build issues, I had one of the earlier kits from production and did not come across any of these issues. The D10 should come with both carbon and D10 aluminum chassis so I'm not sure if you really have a D10 kit.

Post a pic of what your car looks like?
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Old 02-05-2018, 11:35 AM   #123
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I have a D10 kit I did contact my eBay seller. I would post pictures due to low memory in my phone I am unable too post pics on RCtech. I sent pictures to my seller. I showed my car to my friend that talked me into trying a VBC out he verified it is a D10 kit I he is the person who told me I had a D09 chassis.
I've raced Awesomatix cars for the last 3 years. I've built many generation of Tamiya cars 2 Awesomatix cars and have had minor issues there is no excuse for these mistakes. I do look forward to racing this car I it has indicated features I do like having no C-hubs is big upgrade removing the weakest link in conventional RC race cars.
I also ordering frontend parts to put in the rear to give the car ARS.
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Old 02-05-2018, 01:25 PM   #124
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just finished building my nephew's new D10 kit, found the silver springs measured 20mm in length but the blue's measured 21.3 mm in length, both pairs the same, so to all check your spring lengths
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Old 02-05-2018, 07:04 PM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vivo quevas View Post
I have a D10 kit I did contact my eBay seller. I would post pictures due to low memory in my phone I am unable too post pics on RCtech. I sent pictures to my seller. I showed my car to my friend that talked me into trying a VBC out he verified it is a D10 kit I he is the person who told me I had a D09 chassis.
I've raced Awesomatix cars for the last 3 years. I've built many generation of Tamiya cars 2 Awesomatix cars and have had minor issues there is no excuse for these mistakes. I do look forward to racing this car I it has indicated features I do like having no C-hubs is big upgrade removing the weakest link in conventional RC race cars.
I also ordering frontend parts to put in the rear to give the car ARS.
\\

Those are some very strange issues, I have had several kits and have never had anything like that show up, but I guess anything is possible.

Check your PM please.
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Old 02-05-2018, 07:08 PM   #126
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Just got home from the WCICS Round 5 event. I ran my D10 in touring stock and was in the top half of the A all weekend. No breakages, even after getting hit hard in the front wheel by someone who didn't hear the RD say that the straight was closed. Many positive comments on how well the car looked on track. It is definitely faster than the previous VBC models and the lower CoG is noticeable.
However, the previous VBC cars are still viable options. I ran my D08 in modified and was able to lay down the fastest lap times by a good margin. Unfortunately traffic issues hurt me all weekend but ended up in 3rd on the podium.
Fantastic cars and a great value.
The D10s worked great all weekend, and for that matter I think between all of the VBC drivers at the event, I think we had Ghosts, D08, D09 and D10s representing.

I did manage to break a front arm in practice on my D10, but apparently you cant move a corner thats loaded down with 6 concrete bricks. Other than that cars where all pretty bullet proof.
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Old 02-06-2018, 03:42 PM   #127
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In fact it is a matter of speed lol
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Old 02-12-2018, 02:39 AM   #128
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I spent a good chunk of time today measuring out and comparing the D09 and D10 suspension geometry using RC3. I discovered the roll center positions are drastically different when using identical suspension settings. That said, after studying the roll center positions I would highly suggest starting with 2 mm shims underneath the FF - FR and RF -RR suspension blocks. Yes, to some it might seem a lot, but it should get you within what the D09 and other popular TC's are running for ''normal'' roll center positions.

For carpet with aluminum chassis.

I would also try these settings for the camber link positions.
** Camber Link Position #1 **
Front - 3.0-4.0 mm spacer
Rear - 2.5-3.0 mm spacer

Rear Hub - Inner hole position
3.0 mm

Also try placing a 0.2 mm shim underneath the cone washer located underneath the front hub carrier. Place the shim between the cone washer and bearing. This will increase the axle height and change the roll center and camber gain slightly.

In addition, make sure the front and rear track widths are the same or relatively close. i.e 188 mm front and 187 mm rear.
You'll be surprised how narrow the rear is when you measure it.
I would also look at running the D09 shocks as they provide linear dampening instead of the progressive D10 shocks. Use linear shocks for carpet and progressive shocks for asphalt.

Shock Setup
Front SMJ Pink 2 hole on shock tower.
Rear SMJ Silver 3 hole on shock tower.

Give it a try and let me know how it goes.
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Old 02-12-2018, 07:55 AM   #129
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RC3 setup
Attached Thumbnails
VBC D10-img_4105.jpg  
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Old 02-12-2018, 09:15 AM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EDWARD2003 View Post
I spent a good chunk of time today measuring out and comparing the D09 and D10 suspension geometry using RC3. I discovered the roll center positions are drastically different when using identical suspension settings. That said, after studying the roll center positions I would highly suggest starting with 2 mm shims underneath the FF - FR and RF -RR suspension blocks. Yes, to some it might seem a lot, but it should get you within what the D09 and other popular TC's are running for ''normal'' roll center positions.

For carpet with aluminum chassis.

I would also try these settings for the camber link positions.
** Camber Link Position #1 **
Front - 3.0-4.0 mm spacer
Rear - 2.5-3.0 mm spacer

Rear Hub - Inner hole position
3.0 mm

Also try placing a 0.2 mm shim underneath the cone washer located underneath the front hub carrier. Place the shim between the cone washer and bearing. This will increase the axle height and change the roll center and camber gain slightly.

In addition, make sure the front and rear track widths are the same or relatively close. i.e 188 mm front and 187 mm rear.
You'll be surprised how narrow the rear is when you measure it.
I would also look at running the D09 shocks as they provide linear dampening instead of the progressive D10 shocks. Use linear shocks for carpet and progressive shocks for asphalt.

Shock Setup
Front SMJ Pink 2 hole on shock tower.
Rear SMJ Silver 3 hole on shock tower.

Give it a try and let me know how it goes.

First off thank you for all of your great insight on all VBC cars, you setups have helped me a lot over the years. My question to you is why would I want to set up my D10 the same as my D09. Frankly out of the box my D10 is .3 faster than my D09 ever was. Please dont take this as an attack on you, I am just trying to figure out this whole setup thing. Again thank you for your insight.
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Old 02-12-2018, 08:16 PM   #131
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Brandon none taken. You have a legitimate reason to question as to why you want to go to a setup similar to that of the D09. Well, I'm not primarily focused on setting the D10 up to be like the D09, but rather sort out the low roll centers to be within those of other popular touring car chassis.

That said, after measuring and comparing roll centers with other popular chassis on the market today, I noticed the D10 was lower than all others.

To give you an idea of what I'm talking about. Let's use these chassis for comparison.
The lowest measured roll center point for the

Xray T4 '16 is 6.65 mm and Xray T4 '17 is 6.3

Yokomo BD7 '16 is 7.5 mm

VBC D09 6.1 mm VBC D10 is 6.0 mm


In my opinion, the Xray chassis are what I consider the bench mark for roll center positions. As I've listed above the '16 and '17 lowest roll center heights have changed slightly, but for the most part these two chassis perform really well on both carpet and asphalt.

Taking a look at the BD7 '16 you can see the lowest roll center point is a lot higher than others. When drivers first used this chassis they had to use 3 mm inner camber link shims with tall ball studs (*A). This allowed them to achieve roll center positions that were similar to their competitors. Later on down the road Yokomo Europe came out with -1.0 mm suspension blocks to bring the roll center point from 7.5 mm to 6.5 mm (B). Which as we know is roughly what Xray is using on their chassis.

(A)http://site.petitrc.com/reglages/yok...ena2015112829/
(B)Team Yokomo BD7'16 - 1.0mm Lowered Suspension Mounts

With the VBC D10 most of you don't know this but both the D09 and (D10 black) suspension blocks are -0.5 mm lower than the standard D08 silver blocks. This further lowers the roll center position from what a lot of manufactures are currently using. I would say, it's safe to say that a good starting roll center position is around 6.3mm ~ 6.5mm. Why does this matter? Well, the suspension geometry is greatly affected around the lower hinge pin height, and this in turn will affect how the roll center and camber gain will work with each other. This relationship between the two is important to get right and that is why Yokomo had to take extreme measures to get this roll center / camber gain relationship to work the BD7 '16. The D09's roll center height is only 0.1 mm different, which yields a slight difference in roll center positions, but the biggest factor between the two VBC chassis is the suspension arms. The D09 suspension arm pin to pin front is 52.75 mm and rear is 54.3 mm. This difference in length between the front and rear suspension arms is common with most if not all manufactures. However, the D10 now uses identical length suspension arms at 53.00 mm pin to pin for the front and rear which has affected the roll center positions between both ends of the car. Also there are few other suspension parameters that change the roll center position, but I won't go into detail about it.

That is why I suggest trying out these settings I posted previously above. You can try or not. Just something for you think about. I'll admit I haven't tried what I've mentioned in my previous post, however, my D10 setup at 2017 AOC Yatabe isn't too far off from what I'm suggesting.

VBC Racing WildFire D10 - Edward Pickering - AOC - Yatabe Arena - 24-26.11.2017
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Last edited by EDWARD2003; 02-17-2018 at 05:02 AM. Reason: D08 suspension blocks are 0.5 mm higher than D09 and D10 blocks.
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Old 02-12-2018, 08:59 PM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EDWARD2003 View Post
Brandon none taken. You have a legitimate reason to question as to why you want to go to a setup similar to that of the D09. Well, I'm not primarily focused on setting the D10 up to be like the D09, but rather sort out the low roll centers to be within those of other popular touring car chassis.

That said, after measuring and comparing roll centers with other popular chassis on the market today, I noticed the D10 was lower than all others.

To give you an idea of what I'm talking about. Let's use these chassis for comparison.
The lowest measured roll center point for the

Xray T4 '16 is 6.65 mm and Xray T4 '17 is 6.3

Yokomo BD7 '16 is 7.5 mm

VBC D09 6.1 mm VBC D10 is 6.0 mm


In my opinion, the Xray chassis are what I consider the bench mark for roll center positions. As I've listed above the '16 and '17 lowest roll center heights have changed slightly, but for the most part these two chassis perform really well on both carpet and asphalt.

Taking a look at the BD7 '16 you can see the lowest roll center point is a lot higher than others. When drivers first used this chassis they had to use 3 mm inner camber link shims with tall ball studs (*A). This allowed them to achieve roll center positions that were similar to their competitors. Later on down the road Yokomo Europe came out with -1.0 mm suspension blocks to bring the roll center point from 7.5 mm to 6.5 mm (B). Which as we know is roughly what Xray is using on their chassis.

(A)http://site.petitrc.com/reglages/yok...ena2015112829/
(B)Team Yokomo BD7'16 - 1.0mm Lowered Suspension Mounts

With the VBC D10 most of you don't know this but the new black suspension blocks are -0.5 mm lower than the standard silver blocks. This further lowers the roll center position from what a lot of manufactures are currently using. I would say, it's safe to say that a good starting roll center position is around 6.3mm ~ 6.5mm. Why does this matter? Well, the suspension geometry is greatly affected around the lower hinge pin height, and this in turn will affect how the roll center and camber gain will work with each other. This relationship between the two is important to get right and that is why Yokomo had to take extreme measures to get this roll center / camber gain relationship to work the BD7 '16. The D09's roll center height is only 0.1 mm different, which yields a slight difference in roll center positions, but the biggest factor between the two VBC chassis is the suspension arms. The D09 suspension arm pin to pin front is 52.75 mm and rear is 54.3 mm. This difference in length between the front and rear suspension arms is common with most if not all manufactures. However, the D10 now uses identical length suspension arms at 53.00 mm pin to pin for the front and rear which has affected the roll center positions between both ends of the car. Also there are few other suspension parameters that change the roll center position, but I won't go into detail about it.

Are you still with me?

That is why I suggest trying out these settings I posted previously above. You can try or not. Just something for you think about. I'll admit I haven't tried what I've mentioned in my previous post, however, my D10 setup at 2017 AOC Yatabe isn't too far off from what I'm suggesting.

VBC Racing WildFire D10 - Edward Pickering - AOC - Yatabe Arena - 24-26.11.2017

Once again great information from you. I am going to add 1.5mm front and back (I dont have enough spacers to go to 2mm) also raising the front axles. We are racing this weekend on generally a medium to high bite large asphalt track so I will let you know how that goes. Thank you for all of this information.
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Old 02-13-2018, 01:44 PM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EDWARD2003 View Post
RC3 setup
This image is going to help visualize the next part, take a good look at the section that states roll stiffness due to ARB and springs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EDWARD2003 View Post
(...) This relationship between the two is important to get right and that is why Yokomo had to take extreme measures to get this roll center / camber gain relationship to work the BD7 '16. The D09's roll center height is only 0.1 mm different, which yields a slight difference in roll center positions, but the biggest factor between the two VBC chassis is the suspension arms. The D09 suspension arm pin to pin front is 52.75 mm and rear is 54.3 mm. This difference in length between the front and rear suspension arms is common with most if not all manufactures. However, the D10 now uses identical length suspension arms at 53.00 mm pin to pin for the front and rear which has affected the roll center positions between both ends of the car. Also there are few other suspension parameters that change the roll center position, but I won't go into detail about it.

Are you still with me?

That is why I suggest trying out these settings I posted previously above. You can try or not. Just something for you think about. I'll admit I haven't tried what I've mentioned in my previous post, however, my D10 setup at 2017 AOC Yatabe isn't too far off from what I'm suggesting.

VBC Racing WildFire D10 - Edward Pickering - AOC - Yatabe Arena - 24-26.11.2017
Just to add something to the conversation, it will get technical you've been warned.

Roll centres (RCs), the kind of thrown around in most places where it is mentioned is the geometric one. It's a way to help visualize how forces are going to change a car attitude (roll and pitch), RCs don't exist alone. Being that RCs show how the chassis responds from the forces at play (grip from tires) and knowing that with RC closer to centre of gravity (CG) there's less chassis attitude change that means that means: "with shorter distances between RC and CG, there is an increased anti-roll/pitch force".

Being that the suspension arms are set in what is a linkage system, there is a point which the RCs don't change roll/pitch motion, another that it increases roll/pitch motion and one that decreases it. All touring cars exhibit the increased roll motion from RCs as RC height is bellow ground far away from CG.

At this point you are thinking "RC height=roll/pitch amount right, now what? That sounds like sway bars.", bingo! The entire roll stiffness part, which is very important to extract maximum grip from the tires, depends on three variables: springs, roll bars (seen in the pic above) and RC height. When Yokomo changed stuff in the '16 version it shuffled the roll stiffness parts so the car didn't work good any more. It needed a correction on the other stiffnesses to get back where it works. Seeing that the roll bar contribution to restrain roll motion is so little compared to the springs one may think of higher RC height and get rid of the sway bars.

Now throwing camber gain in the mix.
You can tune camber gain without messing with static RC height and vice versa so that you can change one or the other to avoid throwing handling to the bin. Careful positioning of the RCs and amount of camber gain allows all tires to produce the most grip at all times, that's why we see Touring cars converging on a certain suspension geometry and springs/sway bars setup.

So all this to say that, even if Mr. Edward runs the same RC height as other cars (for example he copies the fastest car ever, the fictional Xokomo TBD'99 Marc Rheinard V version), if camber gain or another geometry related parameter (suspension arms length and lower arm to upper arm lengths ratio, motion ratios,etc...) is off then so is performance and then everyone will be scratching their heads and throwing away the cars that are worse than the Xokomo.

TL: DR.
Take care when talking RCs outside of their context.
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Old 02-13-2018, 08:57 PM   #134
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The chassis roll sensitivity in the RC3 photo is at 0.83 deg/g when using higher roll centers and SMJ Pink front and SMJ Silver rear. This value is quite stiff and suggest softening the springs.

Higher roll centers with softer springs like Xray 2.6 front and rear will increase the chassis roll sensitivity to 0.93~1.03 deg/g. This will value is softer and make the car easier to drive

Ideally you want to be around 90~110 deg/g for this is a good range to work with.
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Old 02-14-2018, 09:58 AM   #135
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There's some numbers that don't match to my spreadsheet, also 90-110* of roll per G is a mistake

My spreadsheet outputs around 2.2Hz for ride frequency, without roll bar stiffness, with it maybe around 2.5Hz for a TC6 and I think my DETC has around the same (and so other contemporary TC cars). Seeing around 9Hz in RC3 makes me wonder what's going on. I think the ride one is too far away and the roll one a bit on the conservative side.
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