The Drift Thread
01-29-2006, 09:05 PM
#181
Tech Fanatic
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by AngryAsian
Lets clear this up:
Firstly, on the topic of a rear spool. yes, your theory is correct in a grip racing situation. Providing the rear of the car has traction and both rear tires are hooked up. The car traveling in its traction circle WILL indeed require the outside rear to travel FASTER than the inside rear. True.
However, as i mentioned, drift setup is a little different. The whole idea is to LOSE traction. On turn in, a diff setup in the rear will allow the outside to complete its traction circle and the wheel stays hooked up and planted. This is at the detriment of turn in because it effectively increases rear grip.
A spool eliminates the tendency of the rear to hook up. How? By eliminating the ability to complete the traction circle, to compensate one of the tires MUST start to slip. This decreases traction and causes the rear of the car to initate a greater slip angle. (Aka. DRIFT)
As for drift angle, the same theory applies. Once sliding, unless both rear wheels are equally loaded, a diff WILL unload in the direction of the lighter sprung wheel. This facilitates outside grip at the expense of forward traction. If one wheel is unloading, then you have no forward drive. The slip angle decreases and your drift ends. So in this situation the Spool is also superior.
You state that this will result in a great drift angle. How can this be so? You mentioned the diff unloads and allows the outside wheel to spin faster. When the rear of the car is sliding, it is undergoing a slip angle to compensate for its pointed direction. Neither rear wheel needs to spin faster than the other. The acceleration vector is inline with the rear of the car. Not pivoting on the inside rear as in a grip racing situation.
This is similar to what you stated, however. A diff will still have a tendency to unload as the rear of the car is dynamic and never evenly loaded. A spool effectively sums the difference and most importantly, provide forward traction to continue the drift regardless of angle. Something which cannot be said of a diff. As the slip angle increases, the higher the tendency of the diff unloading to the inside wheel.
An LSD by definition(limited slip differential) is not a spool. So you are correct in saying this! However, if you read my post correctly i did not say it was. Please don't misquote me.
I did make mention of the fact that like a spool, it provides forward traction for the end of the car that is experiencing a large slip angle. Perhaps i should have made this more clear for you.
Why would you need to keep the outside rear wheel faster in a turn until you hit the apex? Even in a grip racing situation, once exiting a corner your rear diff is still providing conpensation for the rotational differential at the rear of the car. Only in a perfect unobtainable situation is the diff purely providing traction and experiencing a "locked" state. This statement is misleading in a grip situation.
In a drift, the rear of your car is experiencing a large slip angle as you point into the corner. If you were to follow the accleration vector, then the apex is irrelevant. Are you taking a racing line? Are you taking a line that best allows for drift angle? You tell me.
Finally, to quote:
"Something that you didn't mention is that well I would run open diffs front and back but keep the rear diff just a little tighter then the front and also keep the rear a bit stiffer (suspension)"
Of course i did not mention this!! This is not something that i run. How could i possibly mention a setup that i don't run, from a person that i don't know?You are entitled to your opinion, as i am to mine. If you have a thought or comment please post it, but critising my post on the basis that i didn't mention something YOU prefer is absurd.
I hope this post clears things up for you. If not, please feel free to correct me!
Firstly, on the topic of a rear spool. yes, your theory is correct in a grip racing situation. Providing the rear of the car has traction and both rear tires are hooked up. The car traveling in its traction circle WILL indeed require the outside rear to travel FASTER than the inside rear. True.
However, as i mentioned, drift setup is a little different. The whole idea is to LOSE traction. On turn in, a diff setup in the rear will allow the outside to complete its traction circle and the wheel stays hooked up and planted. This is at the detriment of turn in because it effectively increases rear grip.
A spool eliminates the tendency of the rear to hook up. How? By eliminating the ability to complete the traction circle, to compensate one of the tires MUST start to slip. This decreases traction and causes the rear of the car to initate a greater slip angle. (Aka. DRIFT)
As for drift angle, the same theory applies. Once sliding, unless both rear wheels are equally loaded, a diff WILL unload in the direction of the lighter sprung wheel. This facilitates outside grip at the expense of forward traction. If one wheel is unloading, then you have no forward drive. The slip angle decreases and your drift ends. So in this situation the Spool is also superior.
You state that this will result in a great drift angle. How can this be so? You mentioned the diff unloads and allows the outside wheel to spin faster. When the rear of the car is sliding, it is undergoing a slip angle to compensate for its pointed direction. Neither rear wheel needs to spin faster than the other. The acceleration vector is inline with the rear of the car. Not pivoting on the inside rear as in a grip racing situation.
This is similar to what you stated, however. A diff will still have a tendency to unload as the rear of the car is dynamic and never evenly loaded. A spool effectively sums the difference and most importantly, provide forward traction to continue the drift regardless of angle. Something which cannot be said of a diff. As the slip angle increases, the higher the tendency of the diff unloading to the inside wheel.
An LSD by definition(limited slip differential) is not a spool. So you are correct in saying this! However, if you read my post correctly i did not say it was. Please don't misquote me.
I did make mention of the fact that like a spool, it provides forward traction for the end of the car that is experiencing a large slip angle. Perhaps i should have made this more clear for you.
Why would you need to keep the outside rear wheel faster in a turn until you hit the apex? Even in a grip racing situation, once exiting a corner your rear diff is still providing conpensation for the rotational differential at the rear of the car. Only in a perfect unobtainable situation is the diff purely providing traction and experiencing a "locked" state. This statement is misleading in a grip situation.
In a drift, the rear of your car is experiencing a large slip angle as you point into the corner. If you were to follow the accleration vector, then the apex is irrelevant. Are you taking a racing line? Are you taking a line that best allows for drift angle? You tell me.
Finally, to quote:
"Something that you didn't mention is that well I would run open diffs front and back but keep the rear diff just a little tighter then the front and also keep the rear a bit stiffer (suspension)"
Of course i did not mention this!! This is not something that i run. How could i possibly mention a setup that i don't run, from a person that i don't know?You are entitled to your opinion, as i am to mine. If you have a thought or comment please post it, but critising my post on the basis that i didn't mention something YOU prefer is absurd.
I hope this post clears things up for you. If not, please feel free to correct me!
sorry i wasnt critising you i was trying to correct you
and well just think,,, if you keep the outside wheel faster after apex then your angle on your drift would just keep increasing and will be harder to have steady control...right at the apex is when your angle is sapposed to be set for the turn.
also i dont know if you were thinking about this while saying your statments is the rc cars natural GRIP
since most of us is using abs or pvc the traction is already reduced under acceleration..not saying your wrong.(your right but not in this situation)What your saying is like for real cars when you have grip and need to break it to do drifts.
also i wasnt mis qouting you, i guess i just read it wrong because it is talking about the spools and then said thats why drift manufactures use LSD's
i said my opinion (about the suspension and diff set-up) for the guy who needed help not to you...so i would like be adding to what you said about your set-up
and please dont bold words thinking i dont know about it or dont know it because i do
i might of missed some stuff but right now i got to go so ill get back on it later.
Last edited by anthony390; 01-29-2006 at 09:46 PM.
01-29-2006, 10:10 PM
#182
My response was getting long. The bold text was to highlight the points that you made. 
It was for clarity, not profundity. I'm sorry to have offended you.
Anthony, i'm not sure what you're getting at. Your punctuation is confusing.
Please explain your point about the outside wheel speed. Without justification is doesn't make sense. You assumption and generalisation may very well be for low grip compounds. My reply was irrespective of these. Please re-read my post. I did not make mention of any exceptional low traction circumstances. These posts my my opinions only. Please respect that fact.
You reply implied that i stated something which i did not state. Simple as that. If you have a personal gripe then please pm me and i will clarify my post. Otherwise, this is known as slander.
Please feel free your intellectual thoughts on the subject of drifting. However, once again, hi-jacking someone's reply post is downright rude. Please do so in another post. You thoughts are yours alone. Paraphrasing my post is not your right.
It was for clarity, not profundity. I'm sorry to have offended you.Anthony, i'm not sure what you're getting at. Your punctuation is confusing.
Please explain your point about the outside wheel speed. Without justification is doesn't make sense. You assumption and generalisation may very well be for low grip compounds. My reply was irrespective of these. Please re-read my post. I did not make mention of any exceptional low traction circumstances. These posts my my opinions only. Please respect that fact.
You reply implied that i stated something which i did not state. Simple as that. If you have a personal gripe then please pm me and i will clarify my post. Otherwise, this is known as slander.
Please feel free your intellectual thoughts on the subject of drifting. However, once again, hi-jacking someone's reply post is downright rude. Please do so in another post. You thoughts are yours alone. Paraphrasing my post is not your right.
01-30-2006, 07:42 AM
#183
Tech Fanatic
Thread Starter
im sorry but ya since i cant see your face i guess i had read it in the wrong perspective since i am only reading it
alright lets start out fresh
when turning a drift the outside wheels would be faster.Right?
and since were driving on a serously low grip place because of our tires then that action would take effect of the car turning its body to one side (the cars body angle to the corner)
so that would create the cars angle and since your angle is sapposed to be set at the apex you begin to counter steer and your angle stays constant till the end of your drift...and when you counter steer (that is if you have the set car angle) is when your rear wheels start to act as if they had the same rpms (not saying they do but they get close to)
if there is any parts you dont understand or i made it a bit foggy just tell K?
alright lets start out fresh
when turning a drift the outside wheels would be faster.Right?
and since were driving on a serously low grip place because of our tires then that action would take effect of the car turning its body to one side (the cars body angle to the corner)
so that would create the cars angle and since your angle is sapposed to be set at the apex you begin to counter steer and your angle stays constant till the end of your drift...and when you counter steer (that is if you have the set car angle) is when your rear wheels start to act as if they had the same rpms (not saying they do but they get close to)
if there is any parts you dont understand or i made it a bit foggy just tell K?
01-30-2006, 08:36 AM
#185
Tech Master
iTrader: (1)
I took my drifter to a touring car meet yesterday, and in the lunch hour, people were queing to have a go, not much fun on the carpet but on the gymnasium floor, it was well hooked up, think me fave is getting some good forward traction, getting a head of speed up, then flicking the car to go backwards and then nailing it to bring it to a stop, tis WICKED.....
And guys, drifting is for FUN, if you want to get technical, keep it for touring cars...
And guys, drifting is for FUN, if you want to get technical, keep it for touring cars...
01-30-2006, 11:35 AM
#186
i was about to order the yokomo Apex RX-7 drift shell and does anybody know if they are supplied with the mirrors and wipers ot are they seperate? this is the pic they use for illustrative purposes only so im confused if they come with the shell or when you buy the whole D1 Kit 
i would ask them but they are closed
i would ask them but they are closed
01-30-2006, 12:59 PM
#188
sweet 
cheers
cheers
01-30-2006, 02:17 PM
#189
For those who are confused, please visit:
http://home.tiscali.be/be067749/58/
or
http://www.miata.net/sport/Physics/
Anthony:
You explainations don't make sense mate.
Also, drift angle is set up BEFORE the apex. Otherwise you'd never make it around the corner. You have still failed to explain how an unloading diff that provides no forward traction can allow for a greater angle.
Easy test. Chuck your car in RWD. Try to drift it with a loose diff.
Try again with the diff locked down hard. It's a pretty dramatic difference.
anthony390 you have PM. I don't think this is something we should clutter the forums up with.
Cheers
http://home.tiscali.be/be067749/58/
or
http://www.miata.net/sport/Physics/
Anthony:
You explainations don't make sense mate.
Also, drift angle is set up BEFORE the apex. Otherwise you'd never make it around the corner. You have still failed to explain how an unloading diff that provides no forward traction can allow for a greater angle.
Easy test. Chuck your car in RWD. Try to drift it with a loose diff.
Try again with the diff locked down hard. It's a pretty dramatic difference.
anthony390 you have PM. I don't think this is something we should clutter the forums up with.
Cheers
01-30-2006, 03:27 PM
#191
Tech Fanatic
Thread Starter
back at you
and well i found out what i was missing...when your talking about that the drift angle can be set before the apex and well your right about that but thats not true all the time because what your talking about would be a braking drift...not like mine, mine is about the racing line so most of my drifts are made for racing not style
and well i found out what i was missing...when your talking about that the drift angle can be set before the apex and well your right about that but thats not true all the time because what your talking about would be a braking drift...not like mine, mine is about the racing line so most of my drifts are made for racing not style
Last edited by anthony390; 01-30-2006 at 04:05 PM.
01-31-2006, 03:23 PM
#192
Originally Posted by Aries326
Grim, what kind of hose did you use? How's it drift compared to hard compond drift tires from Tamiya or HPI?
i have not used drift tires, so i cant compare to them i do use pvc
this has more grip then pvc i like it better
01-31-2006, 03:46 PM
#193
Originally Posted by grim
this is green stripe coolant hose it is pretty much a hard rubber
i have not used drift tires, so i cant compare to them i do use pvc
this has more grip then pvc i like it better
i have not used drift tires, so i cant compare to them i do use pvc
this has more grip then pvc i like it better
01-31-2006, 03:51 PM
#194
have you tried using abs plumber pipe?
It's THE preferred tire to use, much cheaper than single ring yokes and much more grip than pvc.
The rubber type drift tires are too hard to break loose. I've never like them. I run a GTB 5.5 and i'll spin them up till they get hot, but the drifts aren't the same.
Of course, if you have the bling in your wallet, then try the yokomo sing-ring tires. They come premounted now! Nice...
(no more broken hands.. ohhhhhh)
It's THE preferred tire to use, much cheaper than single ring yokes and much more grip than pvc.
The rubber type drift tires are too hard to break loose. I've never like them. I run a GTB 5.5 and i'll spin them up till they get hot, but the drifts aren't the same.
Of course, if you have the bling in your wallet, then try the yokomo sing-ring tires. They come premounted now! Nice...
(no more broken hands.. ohhhhhh)
Last edited by AngryAsian; 01-31-2006 at 04:07 PM.
01-31-2006, 04:55 PM
#195
Originally Posted by AngryAsian
have you tried using abs plumber pipe?
It's THE preferred tire to use, much cheaper than single ring yokes and much more grip than pvc.
The rubber type drift tires are too hard to break loose. I've never like them. I run a GTB 5.5 and i'll spin them up till they get hot, but the drifts aren't the same.
Of course, if you have the bling in your wallet, then try the yokomo sing-ring tires. They come premounted now! Nice...
(no more broken hands.. ohhhhhh)
It's THE preferred tire to use, much cheaper than single ring yokes and much more grip than pvc.
The rubber type drift tires are too hard to break loose. I've never like them. I run a GTB 5.5 and i'll spin them up till they get hot, but the drifts aren't the same.
Of course, if you have the bling in your wallet, then try the yokomo sing-ring tires. They come premounted now! Nice...
(no more broken hands.. ohhhhhh)
Just need some lube dude... hands dont hurt as much