Go Back  R/C Tech Forums > General Forums > Electric On-Road
12th scale OUTLAW >

12th scale OUTLAW

12th scale OUTLAW

Old 08-30-2014, 08:03 PM
  #31  
Tech Champion
Thread Starter
iTrader: (17)
 
liljohn1064's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Deerfield, WI
Posts: 5,893
Trader Rating: 17 (100%+)
Default

Originally Posted by Rugspin View Post
Yet you want to see 1/12 make a comeback.....Im confused why split what is already a small elite class.....

We already have this problem with Electric racing...A class for everyone. Most series races sport now 12 to 16 different classes and most barley fill an A-main.
But hey if you track is for it....go with it.
When 12th started it was 6 cell and considered too fast by the end of that period. I'm not trying to create a new class, but clean up the first one. I agree that there are too many classes in general. My point revolves more around the unwillingness of the 2S world to buy into 1s racing. Now foam tires are cheaper than ever. The cars are nearly indestructible. How many people do you think would run a 4.5 or 5.5 with 2S? Easy. None. They would (should) put in the appropriate motor for the conditions. If it requires a body that's 25 mm tall instead of 19mm, that's fine. Now think about a time when someone told you "that looks cool, but I don't want the hassle of special gear." Then they walk away and play with their sedan. You end up segmenting not just the classes, but the hobby. And it does happen. Now, how do you fix that gap?
liljohn1064 is offline  
Old 08-30-2014, 10:10 PM
  #32  
Tech Champion
iTrader: (34)
 
RedBullFiXX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Intergalactic Planetary
Posts: 6,542
Trader Rating: 34 (100%+)
Default

Originally Posted by liljohn1064 View Post
When 12th started it was 6 cell and considered too fast by the end of that period. I'm not trying to create a new class, but clean up the first one. I agree that there are too many classes in general. My point revolves more around the unwillingness of the 2S world to buy into 1s racing. Now foam tires are cheaper than ever. The cars are nearly indestructible. How many people do you think would run a 4.5 or 5.5 with 2S? Easy. None. They would (should) put in the appropriate motor for the conditions. If it requires a body that's 25 mm tall instead of 19mm, that's fine. Now think about a time when someone told you "that looks cool, but I don't want the hassle of special gear." Then they walk away and play with their sedan. You end up segmenting not just the classes, but the hobby. And it does happen. Now, how do you fix that gap?
13.5 Blinky is most likely faster than any 6 cell class ever was

I'm all for basher class of the week, if it brings new people in to the hobby
However
1/12 is a tiny niche class. A small piece of the On-Road group, which is currently a small piece of the RC car pie

Folks will decide to "buy in" or not for number of reasons
My guess, is that a solid local group of 1/12 scale racers running within a standard Global rule-set, would be more enticing than an Outlaw class, which may only run at one track
RedBullFiXX is offline  
Old 08-30-2014, 10:17 PM
  #33  
Tech Fanatic
 
RacinJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Mesa Az
Posts: 807
Default

Originally Posted by RedBullFiXX View Post
13.5 Blinky is most likely faster than any 6 cell class ever was

I'm all for basher class of the week, if it brings new people in to the hobby
However
1/12 is a tiny niche class. A small piece of the On-Road group, which is currently a small piece of the RC car pie

Folks will decide to "buy in" or not for number of reasons
My guess, is that a solid local group of 1/12 scale racers running within a standard Global rule-set, would be more enticing than an Outlaw class, which may only run at one track
+1
RacinJ is offline  
Old 08-31-2014, 12:10 AM
  #34  
Tech Elite
iTrader: (2)
 
DesertRat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Sniffin the 'Sauce Fumes
Posts: 3,573
Trader Rating: 2 (100%+)
Default

This is the 1991 ROAR nationals, which I think was 6 cell:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rs94vDnc2TA

Quick, but not blazing, especially considering the VERY flowing track built and designed to save batteries. They still dumped. Even the winner coasted across the line.

This is the 2013 IIC Mod 1/12 scale A main:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0K52Zw5dLKw

One 1s, these cars EASILY accelerate twice as hard, and if the car is "too slow" (lol) on a long straight, the ESC has timing advance which is really just a warp drive in this case.

If someone wanted to mix up the 1/12 scale racing classes from something other than Stock, Super Stock, and Mod, make Super Stock 17.5 boosted instead of 13.5, or even just boosted 13.5. That could be interesting. Boosted spec motor or even a boosted handout motor could reward innovation and add unpredictability, in addition to being fast.
DesertRat is offline  
Old 08-31-2014, 06:18 AM
  #35  
Tech Champion
Thread Starter
iTrader: (17)
 
liljohn1064's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Deerfield, WI
Posts: 5,893
Trader Rating: 17 (100%+)
Default

Originally Posted by RedBullFiXX View Post
13.5 Blinky is most likely faster than any 6 cell class ever was

I'm all for basher class of the week, if it brings new people in to the hobby
However
1/12 is a tiny niche class. A small piece of the On-Road group, which is currently a small piece of the RC car pie

Folks will decide to "buy in" or not for number of reasons
My guess, is that a solid local group of 1/12 scale racers running within a standard Global rule-set, would be more enticing than an Outlaw class, which may only run at one track.
Very true on all points. So, I ordered a 5.5 and Toro 1S for my Rev 8 Pro. And for me it really isn't about the speed. After all these years I'm finally noticing my car control is not as good as I want it to be. I'm not learning anything running full throttle around the track. I can carry corner sppeed and run a nice line, but correcting with throttle or brakes was a talent never fostered. After buying into the 235 open class, I have what I need and am learning again. Driving anything after driving the RK10 is much improved. Proposing unity over battery packs is pretty weak.
liljohn1064 is offline  
Old 08-31-2014, 06:34 AM
  #36  
Tech Champion
Thread Starter
iTrader: (17)
 
liljohn1064's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Deerfield, WI
Posts: 5,893
Trader Rating: 17 (100%+)
Default

Originally Posted by DesertRat View Post
This is the 1991 ROAR nationals, which I think was 6 cell:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rs94vDnc2TA

Quick, but not blazing, especially considering the VERY flowing track built and designed to save batteries. They still dumped. Even the winner coasted across the line.

This is the 2013 IIC Mod 1/12 scale A main:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0K52Zw5dLKw

One 1s, these cars EASILY accelerate twice as hard, and if the car is "too slow" (lol) on a long straight, the ESC has timing advance which is really just a warp drive in this case.

If someone wanted to mix up the 1/12 scale racing classes from something other than Stock, Super Stock, and Mod, make Super Stock 17.5 boosted instead of 13.5, or even just boosted 13.5. That could be interesting. Boosted spec motor or even a boosted handout motor could reward innovation and add unpredictability, in addition to being fast.
The videos show a nice perspective of new and old at the mod level. I agree that 17.5 blinky should be opened back up to boosted or removed. If there has to be multiples, 2 is enough.
liljohn1064 is offline  
Old 08-31-2014, 06:46 AM
  #37  
Tech Champion
iTrader: (34)
 
RedBullFiXX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Intergalactic Planetary
Posts: 6,542
Trader Rating: 34 (100%+)
Default

Originally Posted by DesertRat View Post

If someone wanted to mix up the 1/12 scale racing classes from something other than Stock, Super Stock, and Mod, make Super Stock 17.5 boosted instead of 13.5, or even just boosted 13.5. That could be interesting. Boosted spec motor or even a boosted handout motor could reward innovation and add unpredictability, in addition to being fast.
The BRCA group in UK have 10.5 blinky as their "Stock class"

That would be fun, and even more interesting than 13.5 blinky or mod imo

+ YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.
RedBullFiXX is offline  
Old 08-31-2014, 11:14 AM
  #38  
Tech Elite
iTrader: (50)
 
mike ivy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Comin at ya from a distant galaxy
Posts: 2,801
Trader Rating: 50 (100%+)
Default

This is just a thought, not sure if it will work. How about a 1/12th Mod 7.5t blinky class?

Last season I was testing that out Speeds were similar to 13.5t boosted. I regularly ran 13.5 blinky, it was staring to get boring went to Mod... 4.0t Destroyed my car Lol... I went to 7.5t it was a good happy Medium for me.
mike ivy is offline  
Old 08-31-2014, 11:21 AM
  #39  
Tech Champion
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Hawaii, USA
Posts: 7,191
Default

Originally Posted by liljohn1064 View Post
When 12th started it was 6 cell and considered too fast by the end of that period. I'm not trying to create a new class, but clean up the first one. I agree that there are too many classes in general. My point revolves more around the unwillingness of the 2S world to buy into 1s racing. Now foam tires are cheaper than ever. The cars are nearly indestructible. How many people do you think would run a 4.5 or 5.5 with 2S? Easy. None. They would (should) put in the appropriate motor for the conditions. If it requires a body that's 25 mm tall instead of 19mm, that's fine. Now think about a time when someone told you "that looks cool, but I don't want the hassle of special gear." Then they walk away and play with their sedan. You end up segmenting not just the classes, but the hobby. And it does happen. Now, how do you fix that gap?
What I see that holds people back from running 1/12th scale in general isn't the battery...it is the tires. Even though they are cheaper than ever people don't want all the headache that comes with running foams such as truing tires and resetting ride height, especially on asphalt where tire wear is high. An open class would only make tire wear even worse.
InspGadgt is offline  
Old 08-31-2014, 12:40 PM
  #40  
Tech Champion
Thread Starter
iTrader: (17)
 
liljohn1064's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Deerfield, WI
Posts: 5,893
Trader Rating: 17 (100%+)
Default

Originally Posted by InspGadgt View Post
What I see that holds people back from running 1/12th scale in general isn't the battery...it is the tires. Even though they are cheaper than ever people don't want all the headache that comes with running foams such as truing tires and resetting ride height, especially on asphalt where tire wear is high. An open class would only make tire wear even worse.
I can remember when I felt that way about foam tires. Once I learned what I was doing, setting ride height on foams wasn't so bad. I can see what you mean about asphalt though. Any tire will take a beating on that stuff.
liljohn1064 is offline  
Old 08-31-2014, 03:29 PM
  #41  
Tech Addict
 
Rugspin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Palm Deset California
Posts: 579
Default Best Track!!!

Oh how I miss this place. "The Ranch Pit Shop"
This was the year both the 1/12th and 1/10th hats were held there.

http://youtu.be/rs94vDnc2TA
Rugspin is offline  
Old 08-31-2014, 08:42 PM
  #42  
Tech Regular
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 263
Trader Rating: 3 (100%+)
Default

I run Mod 3.5t on ashfelt. I get around 4 runs from new to nothing pretty much per set. at this rate tyres are expensive and keep the masses away at my track.
Plus you either true for each run, or have enough sets to get through a whole meet.
It seem wicked to me that you guys lucky enough to run on carpet can only loose 1-2mm for a whole meet!
Andrew S is offline  
Old 09-01-2014, 04:23 PM
  #43  
Tech Fanatic
 
RacinJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Mesa Az
Posts: 807
Default

The rules must be written to attract new racers. Without new drivers coming into the sport / hobby it will die. We can’t always base the rules on what the established drivers want. Basically, if you are into 1/12th scale you are into 1/12th scale. We need to bring new drivers into the class. The motor choice needs to be able to be driven by new drivers. If the class is too fast to be driven by the new driver and the new driver keeps destroying chassis parts, tires and bodies and not having fun, the new driver will leave. A reasonable and stable battery and motor rule that is friendly to new comers is very important.

A standard “Global” rule set is very important. It allows racers from anywhere in North America or the world to travel to a race and know that they can race without having to purchase track specific equipment for a one off event. This is a great way to grow interest and promote 1/12th scale racing in general.

R.O.A.R definitely dropped the ball by not designating a "Stock" motor when the change to brushless motors happened. Be it 17.5, 13.5 or 10.5 a specific “Stock” motor should have been specified. I believe that there should only be two classes of 1/12th scale, stock and modified. The main reason is car count. In any class, 1/12th scale, touring car, F1 or off-road, too many classes can cut down on car count in these classes. Ten cars each in two classes is better than five cars each in four classes. A low car count in any class makes it tough to attract new people to that class. Who wants to spend the required money to get started in a class and end up not being able to race because not enough people show up to make a class.

I love to see new threads on RCTech regarding 1/12th scale because it means that 1/12th isn’t fading away. I’m never going to knock anyone for bringing up a new idea. This is just my thoughts on motor and class rules.
RacinJ is offline  
Old 09-01-2014, 05:53 PM
  #44  
Tech Champion
iTrader: (34)
 
RedBullFiXX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Intergalactic Planetary
Posts: 6,542
Trader Rating: 34 (100%+)
Cool

Originally Posted by RacinJ View Post
The rules must be written to attract new racers. Without new drivers coming into the sport / hobby it will die. We can’t always base the rules on what the established drivers want. Basically, if you are into 1/12th scale you are into 1/12th scale. We need to bring new drivers into the class. The motor choice needs to be able to be driven by new drivers. If the class is too fast to be driven by the new driver and the new driver keeps destroying chassis parts, tires and bodies and not having fun, the new driver will leave. A reasonable and stable battery and motor rule that is friendly to new comers is very important.

A standard “Global” rule set is very important. It allows racers from anywhere in North America or the world to travel to a race and know that they can race without having to purchase track specific equipment for a one off event. This is a great way to grow interest and promote 1/12th scale racing in general.

R.O.A.R definitely dropped the ball by not designating a "Stock" motor when the change to brushless motors happened. Be it 17.5, 13.5 or 10.5 a specific “Stock” motor should have been specified. I believe that there should only be two classes of 1/12th scale, stock and modified. The main reason is car count. In any class, 1/12th scale, touring car, F1 or off-road, too many classes can cut down on car count in these classes. Ten cars each in two classes is better than five cars each in four classes. A low car count in any class makes it tough to attract new people to that class. Who wants to spend the required money to get started in a class and end up not being able to race because not enough people show up to make a class.

I love to see new threads on RCTech regarding 1/12th scale because it means that 1/12th isn’t fading away. I’m never going to knock anyone for bringing up a new idea. This is just my thoughts on motor and class rules.
So Basically, If you are into...

Basketball
Soccer
Football
Baseball
Nascar
Golf
Tennis
You are into, etc, etc

Call it a difference of opinion
I've never bought into, changing a sport to attract folks that would never otherwise have an interest

Change is good, don't get me wrong
Lipo, 2.4ghz, Brushless, Pre-mounted-Pre-trued foam tires, these are good changes

But, somethings, just work best as they are

Stock & Mod, great idea, however, mod is, well mod, and stock, even 17.5 is too fast for some novice drivers
So, what to do?
27t 4cell (Stock) was certainly slower than 17.5 1s is now
RedBullFiXX is offline  
Old 09-01-2014, 07:02 PM
  #45  
Tech Fanatic
 
RacinJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Mesa Az
Posts: 807
Default

Originally Posted by RedBullFiXX View Post

Call it a difference of opinion
I've never bought into, changing a sport to attract folks that would never otherwise have an interest

Change is good, don't get me wrong
Lipo, 2.4ghz, Brushless, Pre-mounted-Pre-trued foam tires, these are good changes

But, somethings, just work best as they are

Stock & Mod, great idea, however, mod is, well mod, and stock, even 17.5 is too fast for some novice drivers
So, what to do?
27t 4cell (Stock) was certainly slower than 17.5 1s is now
I'm not looking to bring in people who would typically not be interested in racing. I'd like to get the people who are interested but on the fence about racing 1/12th. I want racers.

I started racing back in 1980 and love 1/12th scale. (Please note my signature.) I'd hate to see pan car racing go away.

Change has been very good. I saw the introduction of suspension cars, peak chargers, electronic speed controls, open endbell motors, 64 pitch gears, AMB scoring system and battery wars. I don't miss the radio glitches, $ 1,200.00 in the latest matched packs per season (At least) and all the time spent tearing down brushed motors between heats and mains. I love 2.4GHz, Lipo and brushless motors. I wish they came 25 - 30 years earlier.

A simplified class structure is what I'd like to see. A 17.5 stock and anything else is modified would be fine with me.
RacinJ is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.