2014 IFMAR Worlds Full Throttle Raceway at Kissimmee Florida
05-27-2013, 09:53 PM
#46
As someone who is not qualified to run at the worlds I think it is fantastic in itself that we as the United States are able to hold the worlds here. I think it is unfortunate that 1/12th MAY be run on asphalt, however the racers have over a year to prepare to run on asphalt which is more than enough time to test and prepare. You're still driving the same car after all.
05-28-2013, 12:19 AM
#47
Tech Adept
So then, for people wondering what modern 12th on Asphalt on a large track actually looks like, here is some of the NSW (Aus) State Championships in 2011. This was without additive to the track, and the grip was down a little because we ran into the night. It's my voice on Commentary because I was BQ.
| + YouTube Video | |
They look like touring cars, moving around on the surface. Fine.
The track is too big for the scale. The agility of the class is wasted on this track. The ability of a 12th scale to change direction in a heart beat is lost here.
Your club looks fantastic. I love the night drive aspect also. If I was down the road I would come... with a touring car! I might put a 12th down for a laugh.
I would not come to a WC to do this.
05-28-2013, 12:30 AM
#48
Tech Adept
In fact... have this as a comparison.
2010 Worlds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oni9iUFwx-s
The lad proved he could do it for real.
This was the 2008 on Asphalt
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWzG4qVfbuA
Fun for 2 people only in this final. The rest were making up the numbers.
Anyway... the 12th scale WC _should_ be run on Carpet. Unfortunately it is a recommendation, not a rule. But if you go against the recommendation surely there had to be good justification?
All the current chassis development is around carpet racing. We have done a lot over the last few years with the weight drop due to 1S and the demise of the T bar. A lot has been adapted with link pivot positions and layout to make the cars work correctly.
Again I am struggling to understand why the pinnacle flagship event would deviate from the norm for the class. It just makes no sense, other than that it is easy. Just crank the handle.
However and on balance. I appreciate that the organisers are probably volunteers and the hosting club have no resource for a carpet race? Where would the energy come from to make the 12th site work? Well it can and has been done in Italy, Germany and Holland. I know its tough and needs great leadership.
I pay an entry fee and an Efra (in my case) license. What happens to that money and what is it for? I am not "cheap" ... you don't travel half way across the world to race toy cars on the cheap. My point is that if a $130 entry becomes a $200 entry to ensure that the correct provision is made for world class 12th scale then I would still come. I save that money on only needing 2 batteries in the modern era.
I am the midfield. I am the numbers. I make the difference between a dying event with the same sad 10 professionals looking at each other and one where there is a buzz and supporting excitement.
I am a customer. This costs me a bunch of cash to come do this with you. Do you want me to come?
Mark
2010 Worlds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oni9iUFwx-s
The lad proved he could do it for real.
This was the 2008 on Asphalt
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWzG4qVfbuA
Fun for 2 people only in this final. The rest were making up the numbers.
Anyway... the 12th scale WC _should_ be run on Carpet. Unfortunately it is a recommendation, not a rule. But if you go against the recommendation surely there had to be good justification?
All the current chassis development is around carpet racing. We have done a lot over the last few years with the weight drop due to 1S and the demise of the T bar. A lot has been adapted with link pivot positions and layout to make the cars work correctly.
Again I am struggling to understand why the pinnacle flagship event would deviate from the norm for the class. It just makes no sense, other than that it is easy. Just crank the handle.
However and on balance. I appreciate that the organisers are probably volunteers and the hosting club have no resource for a carpet race? Where would the energy come from to make the 12th site work? Well it can and has been done in Italy, Germany and Holland. I know its tough and needs great leadership.
I pay an entry fee and an Efra (in my case) license. What happens to that money and what is it for? I am not "cheap" ... you don't travel half way across the world to race toy cars on the cheap. My point is that if a $130 entry becomes a $200 entry to ensure that the correct provision is made for world class 12th scale then I would still come. I save that money on only needing 2 batteries in the modern era.
I am the midfield. I am the numbers. I make the difference between a dying event with the same sad 10 professionals looking at each other and one where there is a buzz and supporting excitement.
I am a customer. This costs me a bunch of cash to come do this with you. Do you want me to come?
Mark
Last edited by Mark Payne; 05-28-2013 at 01:11 AM.
05-28-2013, 01:02 AM
#49
A touringcar is a bus when comparing it with a pancar, even on asphalt (with some traction) the difference in cornerspeed is huge. The agility is there but there is no tc car in the movie so you don't really feel it. Shortening the WC asphalt track is a good move considering the 1s lipo and mod motors.
I am looking forward seeing the 12th scale wc go on asphalt.
I am looking forward seeing the 12th scale wc go on asphalt.
05-28-2013, 02:56 AM
#51
A touringcar is a bus when comparing it with a pancar, even on asphalt (with some traction) the difference in cornerspeed is huge. The agility is there but there is no tc car in the movie so you don't really feel it. Shortening the WC asphalt track is a good move considering the 1s lipo and mod motors.
I am looking forward seeing the 12th scale wc go on asphalt.
I am looking forward seeing the 12th scale wc go on asphalt.
05-28-2013, 05:26 AM
#52
James,
Our crew did indeed have that as option, actually the entire carpet track was in the overall budget. The ROAR EXCOMM did not choose our bid, they believed Full Throttle's bid was better.
I am excited that the race will be in the USA again, hopefully I'll be able to run both segments. Looking forward to what George and his crew have cooked up.
Our crew did indeed have that as option, actually the entire carpet track was in the overall budget. The ROAR EXCOMM did not choose our bid, they believed Full Throttle's bid was better.
I am excited that the race will be in the USA again, hopefully I'll be able to run both segments. Looking forward to what George and his crew have cooked up.
Ive been biting my tongue for a while....
One of the things I find most disappointing is that when the idea was presented of FT or Tim Potter's crew hosting the Worlds, both presented the situation as if their intention was to hold the 12th part of the event on Carpet.
FT made a post saying they were planning on having the 12th portion of the race held at the Worldgate Resort, which hosts the Snowbirds each year:
Tim Potter's crew made a post saying they had access to a gym in which to host the 12th scale portion on carpet:
I can't imagine hosting the 12th race in a gym being more expensive than renting out the Worldgate resort. In fact, I would really like to hear from one Tim Potter's guys... a really honest answer on whether or not the gym could have been used to run 12th scale, what the size is, did they discuss viability of this idea with the city/state, etc, etc. I suspect that they did the aforementioned, as they seem to be a very well put together club that can host a great event.
So I find it sad that ROAR or whomever would choose to go with the venue that may be slightly better suited for the ISTC, only to screw the 12th scale contingent. Sure, 12th scale is always the bridesmaid at the EP on-road Worlds. But this choice sort of insures that the 12th event will be sorely lacking in turn-out. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the big names that typically only run 12th at the Worlds (guys like Rheinard, etc) skip the 12th portion altogether this year.
It is awesome that the Worlds will actually be held in the US and Im sure the ISTC portion will be a great event. But, for whatever reason, it was chosen to sacrifice the 12th scale portion to make this happen. I know people have differing opinions about whether 12th should or can be run on asphalt... but the following is indisputable:
1) Asphalt 12th is dead in the US... the country hosting this event. The past ~4 years of ROAR Paved Nats have been unable to fill a full heat of Mod 12th. And the class wasn't even raced in 2011 due to lack of entries.
2) IFMAR stipulates that the 12th portion of the EP On-road Worlds should be held on carpet.
Anyway... I guess I just feel a little misled after the above quotes were posted. If that is the doing of ROAR or the race promoter, I can't say. But any inkling I had to attend this race, either as a spectator or competitor, has vanished.
Edit: It also makes the proximity of the event to IIC an even bigger blunder, as the two events now have zero overlapping class/surface combos.
One of the things I find most disappointing is that when the idea was presented of FT or Tim Potter's crew hosting the Worlds, both presented the situation as if their intention was to hold the 12th part of the event on Carpet.
FT made a post saying they were planning on having the 12th portion of the race held at the Worldgate Resort, which hosts the Snowbirds each year:
Tim Potter's crew made a post saying they had access to a gym in which to host the 12th scale portion on carpet:
I can't imagine hosting the 12th race in a gym being more expensive than renting out the Worldgate resort. In fact, I would really like to hear from one Tim Potter's guys... a really honest answer on whether or not the gym could have been used to run 12th scale, what the size is, did they discuss viability of this idea with the city/state, etc, etc. I suspect that they did the aforementioned, as they seem to be a very well put together club that can host a great event.
So I find it sad that ROAR or whomever would choose to go with the venue that may be slightly better suited for the ISTC, only to screw the 12th scale contingent. Sure, 12th scale is always the bridesmaid at the EP on-road Worlds. But this choice sort of insures that the 12th event will be sorely lacking in turn-out. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the big names that typically only run 12th at the Worlds (guys like Rheinard, etc) skip the 12th portion altogether this year.
It is awesome that the Worlds will actually be held in the US and Im sure the ISTC portion will be a great event. But, for whatever reason, it was chosen to sacrifice the 12th scale portion to make this happen. I know people have differing opinions about whether 12th should or can be run on asphalt... but the following is indisputable:
1) Asphalt 12th is dead in the US... the country hosting this event. The past ~4 years of ROAR Paved Nats have been unable to fill a full heat of Mod 12th. And the class wasn't even raced in 2011 due to lack of entries.
2) IFMAR stipulates that the 12th portion of the EP On-road Worlds should be held on carpet.
Anyway... I guess I just feel a little misled after the above quotes were posted. If that is the doing of ROAR or the race promoter, I can't say. But any inkling I had to attend this race, either as a spectator or competitor, has vanished.
Edit: It also makes the proximity of the event to IIC an even bigger blunder, as the two events now have zero overlapping class/surface combos.
05-28-2013, 05:27 AM
#53
Tech Apprentice
iTrader: (1)
I never raced 1/12th till the opening day of Paved Nationals this year. I've only ever ran on asphalt. Also not having a local carpet track I'm left only racing on asphalt, I even have to race against WGT do to the lack of people. I've watched them run on carpet and I've run them on asphalt. Honestly unless I'm totally missing something the cars with the right setups seem to handle totally the same. Yet this topic drags on with people complaining about what they choose to run it on. Even though I'm not running mod. I will be there to run the class on asphalt or carpet, like every true racer should. We wonder why this class is dying and honestly from this thread its because people have become so close minded on track surface, tire, etc. When I started RC I fell in love with the whole thought of it's you working your car, to better it, to make the car do what you want thru setup to overcome the problems to become a better racer. With current mindsets the class will never survive.
05-28-2013, 06:15 AM
#54
agree with you there, we here is South Africa also run 12th scale on asphalt/tar and have no issues of undrivable cars !!! in most cases they are quicker round the track than the touring mods, and here the kicker the track conditions will be the same for everyone !!!! who ever can nail the setup and drive like the champs will prevail
05-28-2013, 06:23 AM
#55
Tim- is correct in that we are all excited to have the worlds have stayed in the US.
05-28-2013, 07:24 AM
#56
Tech Adept
I think the point was not so much on asphalt but the tires! And how it was very secretive as to what was the tire to be on and they weren't available to all so it becomes the unfair advantage.
It's very simple why can't there be a control tire and additive like touring cars? It comes down to driver and car then.
At our 12 th nationals now we have a control additive.
I think some trust should be given to drivers and teams as let's be honest if u are found cheating u shame urself and u may aswell stop racing u will always be branded as the worlds cheater!
Obviously it would be just donuts as sponsor wheels can still be used and alikes of Yok with there own offset!
Then at tire marking scruiteenering have them durometered for shore or have for instance a company (Jaco) do a special worlds tire so it has a colour stripe in! It is still in the interest at there extra cost.
The additive if people feel they cannot be trusted have additive given out in clear containers with a slight colouring
It's very simple why can't there be a control tire and additive like touring cars? It comes down to driver and car then.
At our 12 th nationals now we have a control additive.
I think some trust should be given to drivers and teams as let's be honest if u are found cheating u shame urself and u may aswell stop racing u will always be branded as the worlds cheater!
Obviously it would be just donuts as sponsor wheels can still be used and alikes of Yok with there own offset!
Then at tire marking scruiteenering have them durometered for shore or have for instance a company (Jaco) do a special worlds tire so it has a colour stripe in! It is still in the interest at there extra cost.
The additive if people feel they cannot be trusted have additive given out in clear containers with a slight colouring
05-28-2013, 07:29 AM
#57
Tech Fanatic
When are the dates, need to move my weeks on my property in kissimee
05-28-2013, 08:42 AM
#58
In fact... have this as a comparison.
2010 Worlds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oni9iUFwx-s
The lad proved he could do it for real.
This was the 2008 on Asphalt
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWzG4qVfbuA
Fun for 2 people only in this final. The rest were making up the numbers.
I am a customer. This costs me a bunch of cash to come do this with you. Do you want me to come?
Mark
2010 Worlds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oni9iUFwx-s
The lad proved he could do it for real.
This was the 2008 on Asphalt
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWzG4qVfbuA
Fun for 2 people only in this final. The rest were making up the numbers.
I am a customer. This costs me a bunch of cash to come do this with you. Do you want me to come?
Mark
Yeah If Roar accepts my application which includes my yearly fee and my entry money my butt will be standing in line to fight for the lower mains in 12th scale I'm sure. But If I get accepted I will be happier than a pig in you know what. I just found myself with a second 12th scale to try setups. I will be spending my months at an asphalt track with my TC's and my 12th's prepping to come in second to last or higher. I would love to "make up the numbers" lets face it unless something very very weird happens we werent about to be fighting for the win anyway. Just to be on the same track as those guys to see how far off I am would be simply awesome.
05-28-2013, 10:52 AM
#60
Tech Master
iTrader: (13)
I am not that close-minded in respect to the surface on which 12th scale is run. Do I prefer to race pan-cars on carpet? Absolutely? Modern pan-cars have been designed to be raced on carpet. Can they be run on asphalt? Absolutely. Is it an ideal setting for them? No. Is it a setting in which the world championship should be decided? IMO, no. But those are simply my opinions.
I would like to clarify something. My real disappointment does not directly stem from the decision to run the 12th scale portion on asphalt... If the choice was to run both classes on asphalt or pass the race to a different bloc/country, I would firmly stand behind the choice to race 12th on the pavement. However, when presented with 2 options for hosting this race(one of which would have pleased both parties/classes), I find it very disappointing that someone(ROAR, IFMAR, I don't know?) chose the option which effectively alienated one of the classes to the benefit of the other.
That is what I find perturbing.