2005 ROAR On-Road Carpet Nationals
03-24-2005, 09:15 AM
#916
Tech Addict
brushless
charlie novak yer up , get to spitting
03-24-2005, 09:31 AM
#917
Tech Fanatic
iTrader: (9)
Originally posted by Todd Putnam
Brushed vs. Brushless:
-Why are brushed motors held to a $95 maximum retail price, and brushless is not?
Todd Putnam
Putnam Propulsion
www.putnampropulsion.com
Brushed vs. Brushless:
-Why are brushed motors held to a $95 maximum retail price, and brushless is not?
Todd Putnam
Putnam Propulsion
www.putnampropulsion.com
You're missin the boat. The rule book now says mods are $110 retail now. I wonder how many others saw the retail prices are up now.
Brian
03-24-2005, 09:38 AM
#918
Doug-I have consulted with my physician..he says "BUTTER" is the only way to go!!
03-24-2005, 10:00 AM
#920
Originally posted by Alex Lopez
TEAM BUTTER FOR ROAR PRESIDENT!!!!
RC SCORING PRO FRO VICE PRESIDENT!!
SCOTTY ERNST FOR SECRETARY OF STATE!!
ALEX LOPEZ FOR HEAD OF THE CABINET!!
TEAM BUTTER FOR ROAR PRESIDENT!!!!
RC SCORING PRO FRO VICE PRESIDENT!!
SCOTTY ERNST FOR SECRETARY OF STATE!!
ALEX LOPEZ FOR HEAD OF THE CABINET!!
03-24-2005, 11:05 AM
#921
Originally posted by Todd Putnam
Brushed vs. Brushless:
There is a huge misconception to think that the ROAR rules are equal regarding the brushed vs. brushless motors. If it is ROAR's intent to allow both to compete against one another, let's do so with rule equality.
If both types of motors were given equal consideration by ROAR before they allowed brushless and brushed to compete against one another, consider the following:
-Why are brushed motors held to a $95 maximum retail price, and brushless is not?
-How much could the brushed motor technology increase if they weren't held to a price cap?
-Why are brushless motors allowed to utilize rare earth magnets and brushed motors aren't?
-Anyone physically measure a brushless can/armature and compare the dimensions to a brushed motor?
-Why do brushed motors need to be submitted, spec'd, and readily available to the public for approval but brushless does not?
-Where could a racer purchase the brushless systems used at the Nats prior to / or at the race?
For what it's worth...
Todd Putnam
Putnam Propulsion
www.putnampropulsion.com
Brushed vs. Brushless:
There is a huge misconception to think that the ROAR rules are equal regarding the brushed vs. brushless motors. If it is ROAR's intent to allow both to compete against one another, let's do so with rule equality.
If both types of motors were given equal consideration by ROAR before they allowed brushless and brushed to compete against one another, consider the following:
-Why are brushed motors held to a $95 maximum retail price, and brushless is not?
-How much could the brushed motor technology increase if they weren't held to a price cap?
-Why are brushless motors allowed to utilize rare earth magnets and brushed motors aren't?
-Anyone physically measure a brushless can/armature and compare the dimensions to a brushed motor?
-Why do brushed motors need to be submitted, spec'd, and readily available to the public for approval but brushless does not?
-Where could a racer purchase the brushless systems used at the Nats prior to / or at the race?
For what it's worth...
Todd Putnam
Putnam Propulsion
www.putnampropulsion.com
Would you guys think it would be fair to allow brushless a slightly higher price limit than Brushed since there aren't as many residual (brushs, comm cuts, etc) costs with brushless?
Just a question.
03-24-2005, 11:27 AM
#922
Originally posted by JKA
Some really good points. But I've got to ask about the Price limitation.
Would you guys think it would be fair to allow brushless a slightly higher price limit than Brushed since there aren't as many residual (brushs, comm cuts, etc) costs with brushless?
Just a question.
Some really good points. But I've got to ask about the Price limitation.
Would you guys think it would be fair to allow brushless a slightly higher price limit than Brushed since there aren't as many residual (brushs, comm cuts, etc) costs with brushless?
Just a question.
03-24-2005, 11:56 AM
#923
Tech Adept
WOW
03-24-2005, 12:05 PM
#924
price caps
There are price caps for brushed and brushless mod motors.
$110 for brushed
$129 for brushless for the reasons mentioned above
As far as street price I saw a 5800 brushless at a HobbyPeople store for $79 this week.
$110 for brushed
$129 for brushless for the reasons mentioned above
As far as street price I saw a 5800 brushless at a HobbyPeople store for $79 this week.
Last edited by ROARprez; 03-24-2005 at 12:17 PM.
03-24-2005, 12:08 PM
#925
Tech Regular
brushless
for one, time. you don't have to spend time rebuilding the motor. time is a precious comodity between heats and unless you have a motor man, you are doing it yourself. Consistency run to run is the other. I know motor masters like you Ian, can build them fast every time. I don't have that luxury and i know a lot of mid level racers who don't either.I would pay a lot more for a motor that would give repeatable results run after run without extra maintenance. Back to cost, How many motors do you buy in a season before you find the one that you like? I know i have bought motors and found out after using them they are dogs never to be raced again, used as practice motors only. that kind of selection process adds up.
03-24-2005, 12:43 PM
#926
Re: brushless
Originally posted by sedanaddict
for one, time. you don't have to spend time rebuilding the motor. time is a precious comodity between heats and unless you have a motor man, you are doing it yourself. Consistency run to run is the other. I know motor masters like you Ian, can build them fast every time. I don't have that luxury and i know a lot of mid level racers who don't either.I would pay a lot more for a motor that would give repeatable results run after run without extra maintenance. Back to cost, How many motors do you buy in a season before you find the one that you like? I know i have bought motors and found out after using them they are dogs never to be raced again, used as practice motors only. that kind of selection process adds up.
for one, time. you don't have to spend time rebuilding the motor. time is a precious comodity between heats and unless you have a motor man, you are doing it yourself. Consistency run to run is the other. I know motor masters like you Ian, can build them fast every time. I don't have that luxury and i know a lot of mid level racers who don't either.I would pay a lot more for a motor that would give repeatable results run after run without extra maintenance. Back to cost, How many motors do you buy in a season before you find the one that you like? I know i have bought motors and found out after using them they are dogs never to be raced again, used as practice motors only. that kind of selection process adds up.
) is a handout from one big race or another, with two exceptions: An EPIC ROAR stocker, and an ORION Revolution Mod. The Orion only needs to be rebuilt about every 6-8 runs with a pretty aggressive set-up. So the argument that people need to go through hundreds of motors just doesn't hold water with me, and never really has. The biggest contributing factor to going fast, as long as you have some semblance of motor tuning knowledge is ROLLOUT. Believe me, Pulfer, Mo and I have run motors that were garbage compared to others, but hit the sweet spot and even a pig can fly. The next most important factor is VOLTAGE. Of course, the above scenario assumes that your car isn't killing your corner speed and making you think that your stuff is slow.
03-24-2005, 12:52 PM
#927
I'll agree that the Rules aren't Perfect right now. But that can be changed I'm sure.
So basically to keep most happy all that needs to change from Roar, is a Price Cap on the Brushless, and more specific rules about magnet materials allowd in both classes. Maybe not "all" rare earth magnets, but the ones being used now??? Comments?
I did offer to Roar that our Motors be fully inspected to meet the Guidelines while we were at the nats. I had no objection to a complete teardown and verification.
The original Rules laid out did incorporate a price limit for the Brushless motors. I am not sure if this was changed or not officially. I'll try to find out though.
So basically to keep most happy all that needs to change from Roar, is a Price Cap on the Brushless, and more specific rules about magnet materials allowd in both classes. Maybe not "all" rare earth magnets, but the ones being used now??? Comments?
I did offer to Roar that our Motors be fully inspected to meet the Guidelines while we were at the nats. I had no objection to a complete teardown and verification.
The original Rules laid out did incorporate a price limit for the Brushless motors. I am not sure if this was changed or not officially. I'll try to find out though.
03-24-2005, 01:00 PM
#928
Originally posted by CypressMidWest
Nope. I'm not interested in lining the pockets of the manufacturers,
Nope. I'm not interested in lining the pockets of the manufacturers,
03-24-2005, 01:06 PM
#929
Price limits need to be the same......they are there to insure availability....
As for the magnets....
Personally, I don't think it should matter....
All that should matter is that
A. The can and endbell meet the current size requirements
This is to make sure that the motors work in all of cars.....making the new xray obsolete is dumb...
B. A price limit, equal for all motors.....this insures the motors are not using exotic materials and such...they need to be able to sell the units for a profit, which keeps them in line....
C. Require all motors be commericially available......I think the modified motor requirement of 2000 is a little too low, it should be 5,000 like stock motors. This will help prevent companies from just selling a few motors and sitting on the rest for team use just to meet the requirements...
After that.....I don't think it should matter one way or the other what goes on inside a modified motor regardless if it is brushless or brushed.....it is modified right? Let them cram the biggest arm in there they can with neo mags and 5 or 7 segments....
Later EddieO
As for the magnets....
Personally, I don't think it should matter....
All that should matter is that
A. The can and endbell meet the current size requirements
This is to make sure that the motors work in all of cars.....making the new xray obsolete is dumb...
B. A price limit, equal for all motors.....this insures the motors are not using exotic materials and such...they need to be able to sell the units for a profit, which keeps them in line....
C. Require all motors be commericially available......I think the modified motor requirement of 2000 is a little too low, it should be 5,000 like stock motors. This will help prevent companies from just selling a few motors and sitting on the rest for team use just to meet the requirements...
After that.....I don't think it should matter one way or the other what goes on inside a modified motor regardless if it is brushless or brushed.....it is modified right? Let them cram the biggest arm in there they can with neo mags and 5 or 7 segments....
Later EddieO
03-24-2005, 01:09 PM
#930
Originally posted by Charlie
So basically to keep most happy all that needs to change from Roar, is a Price Cap on the Brushless, and more specific rules about magnet materials allowd in both classes. Maybe not "all" rare earth magnets, but the ones being used now??? Comments?
So basically to keep most happy all that needs to change from Roar, is a Price Cap on the Brushless, and more specific rules about magnet materials allowd in both classes. Maybe not "all" rare earth magnets, but the ones being used now??? Comments?
Oh yeah, I still have some stuff to send back Charlie. I'll get it off this week.
Ian