2005 ROAR On-Road Carpet Nationals
03-24-2005, 01:50 PM
#931
$129.00 is the posted price cap on brushless.
03-24-2005, 03:11 PM
#932
Tech Fanatic
iTrader: (9)
Originally posted by Dawn Sanchez
$129.00 is the posted price cap on brushless.
$129.00 is the posted price cap on brushless.
Also, I think when ROAR makes rules they should give the rational. I think if most people saw what ROAR was thinking when they made the rules , all the comments would be more constructive as right now everyone is guess what ROAR was thinking and at times it shows ROAR was guessing too.
03-24-2005, 03:23 PM
#933
Tech Master
Brian dont bother asking. They have no clue what they are doing nor will they ever. 
03-24-2005, 03:26 PM
#934
Originally posted by Brian Anthony
Dawn why did ROAR make the brushless have a higher retail then a regular mod? Being that theya re in the same class they should be the same to keep everything on an even bar.
Dawn why did ROAR make the brushless have a higher retail then a regular mod? Being that theya re in the same class they should be the same to keep everything on an even bar.
Roar Prez indicated this is indeed why the brushless limit is $19 higher.
To me it makes sense, especially now that the hot brushes (long run) are about $15 a pair.
03-24-2005, 04:12 PM
#935
See, that's what I'm talking about, The internet is good sometimes..... Constructive comments on what will help squash the argument.
So Same Price Limits for each will "self" govern the need for rules on Exoctic Magnets, that seems to make good sense. I mean it's not like they actually Tech Motors at Nats anyway right, the teams can all run Hybrids or special magnets and no-one's the wiser. This all for the sake of arguing rules when it comes down to it.
The rules are pretty much spelled close to what this "Comitte" is asking, Size limits and loose wording on the rest. All we need to do is match the price limits, and remove the "No Rare Earth Magnets" from Brushed. I suggest Raising the Brushd motor price to meet brushless in an effor to level the playing field in favor of the Brushed. They make a strong product now at the price they are at, I'm sure with an extra $19 bucks in retail it should be faster then a BL in no Time......
I like the Idea of it's Mod Let them Modify and Race.
So Same Price Limits for each will "self" govern the need for rules on Exoctic Magnets, that seems to make good sense. I mean it's not like they actually Tech Motors at Nats anyway right, the teams can all run Hybrids or special magnets and no-one's the wiser. This all for the sake of arguing rules when it comes down to it.
The rules are pretty much spelled close to what this "Comitte" is asking, Size limits and loose wording on the rest. All we need to do is match the price limits, and remove the "No Rare Earth Magnets" from Brushed. I suggest Raising the Brushd motor price to meet brushless in an effor to level the playing field in favor of the Brushed. They make a strong product now at the price they are at, I'm sure with an extra $19 bucks in retail it should be faster then a BL in no Time......
I like the Idea of it's Mod Let them Modify and Race.
03-24-2005, 04:52 PM
#936
All I know charlie... is that it would be worth breaking into bruce's house and "borrowing" his brushless unit in his 12th scale for mod sedan this summer, lol.
03-24-2005, 10:12 PM
#938
They have not had a replaceable magnet motor since the d4 that I can remember...
As for teching the magnets....I dunno how you would do it....but really, how much more special does a magnet get? I mean I guess they could get precision matched magnets, at a huge cost...but there would be NO way to tech it......and to be honest, the difference would be marginal. I've tested tons of magnets from TDK, in ferrite, cobalt, and neo....the supposed high end magnets didn't show much of a difference in our little motors. Maybe in a brushless it does.....
As for the price limits.....if we can make a strong product now, then we should be able to make a stronger product with an equal price limit......sorry, it makes no sense to have two different price points for two motors competing in the same class, regardless of a difference in maintence after the fact...
Later EddieO
As for teching the magnets....I dunno how you would do it....but really, how much more special does a magnet get? I mean I guess they could get precision matched magnets, at a huge cost...but there would be NO way to tech it......and to be honest, the difference would be marginal. I've tested tons of magnets from TDK, in ferrite, cobalt, and neo....the supposed high end magnets didn't show much of a difference in our little motors. Maybe in a brushless it does.....
As for the price limits.....if we can make a strong product now, then we should be able to make a stronger product with an equal price limit......sorry, it makes no sense to have two different price points for two motors competing in the same class, regardless of a difference in maintence after the fact...
Later EddieO
03-25-2005, 01:20 AM
#939
Maybe time to move into another thread... can't really see how this all relates to the Carpet Nats... 
I think the current rules (they're the same for IFMAR, ROAR and EFRA, which is VERY good!) allow quite fair competition between brushed and brushless and are good. It doesn't really favor one system over the other by as much as you guys think. Of course maintenance is another story, but performance wise a brushed motor should be competitive also and was competitive at the Carpet Nats.
I'm sure that Brushless is going to take over in the long run, as soon as racers will realise that there's no "black magic" to it and when they'll start appreciating the "no hassle / no maintenance" issue. Of course there will always be people how did like tuning brushed motors, but I'm sure the majority of racers (I'd see more then 90%!) doesn't like to spend lots of $$$ for brushes, armatures, dynos, comm-lathes, etc.
About equal rules for the 2 systems:
1) Let't not forget that brushed motors are delta winds, while this is not allowed for brushless (which is good, otherwise power would be insane for brushless!).
2) I disagree that 5-7 segment armatuers should be allowed in brushed, it's also "3 slots only" for brushless and I'd think this would only turn-out as a nightmare for racers if they'd have options there as well.
3) I do agree that the different pricelimit may look "suspicious" to you guys, but let's not forget that the manufacturing costs of a brushless motor are higher by quite a bit over a brushed motor (mainly comes from the large stack, high-quality rotor and machined mechanical parts). A brushed motor mainly contains out of "punched/stamped" parts which are much cheaper. So the 19$ difference in the ROAR rules seems quite fine to me.
4) Magnets: I think Charlie made good points about it, don't think I need to give additional comments on that.
Let's try to turn this into a constructive thread. I'm sure at the end we're all racers and don't want to have the electric guys go into the nitro market (which happens here in Europe!).
Have a nice easter weekend,
Reto / LRP
I think the current rules (they're the same for IFMAR, ROAR and EFRA, which is VERY good!) allow quite fair competition between brushed and brushless and are good. It doesn't really favor one system over the other by as much as you guys think. Of course maintenance is another story, but performance wise a brushed motor should be competitive also and was competitive at the Carpet Nats.
I'm sure that Brushless is going to take over in the long run, as soon as racers will realise that there's no "black magic" to it and when they'll start appreciating the "no hassle / no maintenance" issue. Of course there will always be people how did like tuning brushed motors, but I'm sure the majority of racers (I'd see more then 90%!) doesn't like to spend lots of $$$ for brushes, armatures, dynos, comm-lathes, etc.
About equal rules for the 2 systems:
1) Let't not forget that brushed motors are delta winds, while this is not allowed for brushless (which is good, otherwise power would be insane for brushless!).
2) I disagree that 5-7 segment armatuers should be allowed in brushed, it's also "3 slots only" for brushless and I'd think this would only turn-out as a nightmare for racers if they'd have options there as well.
3) I do agree that the different pricelimit may look "suspicious" to you guys, but let's not forget that the manufacturing costs of a brushless motor are higher by quite a bit over a brushed motor (mainly comes from the large stack, high-quality rotor and machined mechanical parts). A brushed motor mainly contains out of "punched/stamped" parts which are much cheaper. So the 19$ difference in the ROAR rules seems quite fine to me.
4) Magnets: I think Charlie made good points about it, don't think I need to give additional comments on that.
Let's try to turn this into a constructive thread. I'm sure at the end we're all racers and don't want to have the electric guys go into the nitro market (which happens here in Europe!).
Have a nice easter weekend,
Reto / LRP
03-25-2005, 04:42 AM
#940
Let's try to turn this into a constructive thread. I'm sure at the end we're all racers and don't want to have the electric guys go into the nitro market (which happens here in Europe!).
03-25-2005, 04:56 AM
#941
Originally posted by Charlie
See, that's what I'm talking about, The internet is good sometimes..... Constructive comments on what will help squash the argument.
So Same Price Limits for each will "self" govern the need for rules on Exoctic Magnets, that seems to make good sense. I mean it's not like they actually Tech Motors at Nats anyway right, the teams can all run Hybrids or special magnets and no-one's the wiser. This all for the sake of arguing rules when it comes down to it.
The rules are pretty much spelled close to what this "Comitte" is asking, Size limits and loose wording on the rest. All we need to do is match the price limits, and remove the "No Rare Earth Magnets" from Brushed. I suggest Raising the Brushd motor price to meet brushless in an effor to level the playing field in favor of the Brushed. They make a strong product now at the price they are at, I'm sure with an extra $19 bucks in retail it should be faster then a BL in no Time......
I like the Idea of it's Mod Let them Modify and Race.
See, that's what I'm talking about, The internet is good sometimes..... Constructive comments on what will help squash the argument.
So Same Price Limits for each will "self" govern the need for rules on Exoctic Magnets, that seems to make good sense. I mean it's not like they actually Tech Motors at Nats anyway right, the teams can all run Hybrids or special magnets and no-one's the wiser. This all for the sake of arguing rules when it comes down to it.
The rules are pretty much spelled close to what this "Comitte" is asking, Size limits and loose wording on the rest. All we need to do is match the price limits, and remove the "No Rare Earth Magnets" from Brushed. I suggest Raising the Brushd motor price to meet brushless in an effor to level the playing field in favor of the Brushed. They make a strong product now at the price they are at, I'm sure with an extra $19 bucks in retail it should be faster then a BL in no Time......
I like the Idea of it's Mod Let them Modify and Race.
03-25-2005, 08:11 AM
#943
mags
Be kind of interesting to see how the magazines are gonna right it up 
03-25-2005, 08:17 AM
#944
Tech Elite
iTrader: (13)
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Land of the Free, Home of the Brave
Posts: 2,928
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Originally posted by Greg Anthony
so... Let me ask this, will HC get their performance bond back? If they do, I want to know who authorized it.....
so... Let me ask this, will HC get their performance bond back? If they do, I want to know who authorized it.....
Put up the bond.....
Run the event.....
Produce a written report....
Looks like he did all of those things.