Spec/Handout Speedo thoughts
04-17-2012, 03:03 PM
#181
Yea we are back to my motor aint fast so go buy another and its obvisously working about the same as before....so why not change something to what is working in other places? Try it for one big race and see what happens. You may be surprised. If it doesnt work guess what people didnt really loose out on much if they dont go.
Also boost is all but dead everywhere pretty much....especially in the true stock classes. We can give that up here in the US. I have a feeling the Snowbirds was the last big race that had a boosted class.
EA
Also boost is all but dead everywhere pretty much....especially in the true stock classes. We can give that up here in the US. I have a feeling the Snowbirds was the last big race that had a boosted class.
EA
The real point I'm trying to make is that in this country, regardless of our rules set, all we're going to do is transfer the focus of the argument to a different component.
I like the idea, because it really does give a perception of fairness. The root of the problem though is that it won't bring a d-mainer to TQ pace.
04-17-2012, 03:06 PM
#182
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Giant sweeping tracks like they run at ETS races tend to make Mod more attractive. Running Mod at most tracks in this country is practically suicidal for all but the most talented among us.
I think that another reason that the whole concept is so widely accepted in Europe is that they run 13.5 rather than 17.5. A 13.5 blinky set-up at least has enough power to keep you from Clamping the throttle and just sawing at the wheel.
It's a great idea for 2s TC classes. I just hope if we go through with it, we can leave 12th and WGT out of it
.
I think that another reason that the whole concept is so widely accepted in Europe is that they run 13.5 rather than 17.5. A 13.5 blinky set-up at least has enough power to keep you from Clamping the throttle and just sawing at the wheel.
It's a great idea for 2s TC classes. I just hope if we go through with it, we can leave 12th and WGT out of it
.Yeah leave the 2wd pan cars alone they seem to be working just fine.
04-17-2012, 03:10 PM
#183
Giant sweeping tracks like they run at ETS races tend to make Mod more attractive. Running Mod at most tracks in this country is practically suicidal for all but the most talented among us.
I think that another reason that the whole concept is so widely accepted in Europe is that they run 13.5 rather than 17.5. A 13.5 blinky set-up at least has enough power to keep you from Clamping the throttle and just sawing at the wheel.
It's a great idea for 2s TC classes. I just hope if we go through with it, we can leave 12th and WGT out of it.
I think that another reason that the whole concept is so widely accepted in Europe is that they run 13.5 rather than 17.5. A 13.5 blinky set-up at least has enough power to keep you from Clamping the throttle and just sawing at the wheel.
It's a great idea for 2s TC classes. I just hope if we go through with it, we can leave 12th and WGT out of it
.
04-17-2012, 03:13 PM
#184
This is total BS…..
A faster stock motor is a faster motor no matter if you are racing Blinky or Boosted…period. This is racing you’re not going to sit there and say if a faster motor comes along you’re not going to buy it or try it because you are racing with boost you will just turn your settings up…that’s about the biggest fallacy I have read on the internet in ages. To say that because of Blinky it’s more a motor game is foolish because if you were not doing these same things when it was boosted you were wasting your time because I’m sure someone else was. If you’re not trying to get 110% out of your motor then what is the point of racing a limited motor class like stock?
All a hand out motor and ESC does is takes all this and throws it out the window and makes it moot. Now you are going to have nothing to complain about other then you got out driven on the track…anyone that is against this has an ulterior motive or plainly cant see the forest for the trees from where I’m sitting.
The ETS has it right for the stock class.
A faster stock motor is a faster motor no matter if you are racing Blinky or Boosted…period. This is racing you’re not going to sit there and say if a faster motor comes along you’re not going to buy it or try it because you are racing with boost you will just turn your settings up…that’s about the biggest fallacy I have read on the internet in ages. To say that because of Blinky it’s more a motor game is foolish because if you were not doing these same things when it was boosted you were wasting your time because I’m sure someone else was. If you’re not trying to get 110% out of your motor then what is the point of racing a limited motor class like stock?
All a hand out motor and ESC does is takes all this and throws it out the window and makes it moot. Now you are going to have nothing to complain about other then you got out driven on the track…anyone that is against this has an ulterior motive or plainly cant see the forest for the trees from where I’m sitting.
The ETS has it right for the stock class.
And we'll be changing the focus to "that guy had better battery than me" or "his motor must have been THE good one" My whole point is that all we're gonna do is change the perception of why the slow are slow.
I have ZERO ulterior motive, I have no motor or ESC sponsors, of course I'm not really opposed to the idea, either. I just understand that it's re-inventing the wheel in a fashion that won't actually roll a damn bit better.
04-17-2012, 03:16 PM
#185
I do tend to speak from a 12th scale perspective. And yes they seem to be doing pretty well. Big turnouts at most big races, and in general, a vastly smaller amount of pissing and moaning........
04-17-2012, 03:29 PM
#186
Giant sweeping tracks like they run at ETS races tend to make Mod more attractive. Running Mod at most tracks in this country is practically suicidal for all but the most talented among us.
I think that another reason that the whole concept is so widely accepted in Europe is that they run 13.5 rather than 17.5. A 13.5 blinky set-up at least has enough power to keep you from Clamping the throttle and just sawing at the wheel.
It's a great idea for 2s TC classes. I just hope if we go through with it, we can leave 12th and WGT out of it.
I think that another reason that the whole concept is so widely accepted in Europe is that they run 13.5 rather than 17.5. A 13.5 blinky set-up at least has enough power to keep you from Clamping the throttle and just sawing at the wheel.
It's a great idea for 2s TC classes. I just hope if we go through with it, we can leave 12th and WGT out of it
.I practiced at Thunder before I left with the setup I was going to use there as far as motor and speedo. I was .1 faster with a 13.5 at 10 degrees fixed timing and speedo (same as ETS) than I was with Blinky 17.5 at our track. The motors only have 10 degrees of timing so it really makes a big difference. The cars are controllable and easy to drive. They are not any faster down the straight than a blinky TC but do have more rip out of the corner but not really enough to break the car loose. SO you can still rip it and grip it! LOL
I do agree that their tracks are more forgiving to drive on due to the use of Dots...that track was actually pretty tight for their norm but I thought it was a freeway compared to our tracks! An Icy freeway though! LOL
EA
04-17-2012, 03:30 PM
#187
Could we please stop pretending that racing modified is just a little bit different then running stock.
Any time this conversation comes up...people always want to throw the "Race Modified" as a reasonable alternative to controlling motors and speed controls. It is very clear that modified seems to negate the electronics conversation, but It is obvious that no one wants to run modified...There were 12 entries at carpet Nats and this is pretty normal (much lower entries) when it comes to the big races. Face it mod is dead in the US...
It is easy for a factory driver (who is also a very good driver) to get on here and tell everyone to just run mod...what's the big deal!
Well, mod today is faster then any other time in history and the cars are getting lighter and more fragile. With these factors and the typical US approach to track barriers the cost of running modified can get high very quick.
Learning to drive mod is more then just changing motors as the driving style is radically different then what it takes to be fast at stock racing. And with so few people running it...whats the point?
If I am being honest I really do not care how it impacts the manufacturers. As a manufacturer it will be your job to produce a motor and speed control combo that meets the needs for racers and offer it at a competitive price. It is obvious to me that this is very possible based on what Speed Passion has been able to do. I personally like the idea of purpose built hardware...yes it is less flexible but better for everyone. We all spend so much dam money on racing and I don't think another 60 bucks is gonna break the bank. The piece of mind is worth every penny to me!
Promoters need to start listening to racers and racers need to start demanding what products they want. If the racers and promoters don't demand these changes (if that is what they want) then it will simply never change. Instead we try to make what is already available fit the needs that it clearly does not meet. With product release cycles of most of the manufacturers...getting new products added seems like a reasonable possibility.
It will be very reasonable to assume that the manufacturers could compete to get their "Spec" products selected for an event. Speed Passion at IIC, LRP at Snowbirds, Hobbywing at Carpet Nats, and anything other then Tekin at paved Nats. The model works if the people want and will support it. It would be nice if their was only one option, but I want to control costs and having companies compete can help do that.
Any time this conversation comes up...people always want to throw the "Race Modified" as a reasonable alternative to controlling motors and speed controls. It is very clear that modified seems to negate the electronics conversation, but It is obvious that no one wants to run modified...There were 12 entries at carpet Nats and this is pretty normal (much lower entries) when it comes to the big races. Face it mod is dead in the US...
It is easy for a factory driver (who is also a very good driver) to get on here and tell everyone to just run mod...what's the big deal!
Well, mod today is faster then any other time in history and the cars are getting lighter and more fragile. With these factors and the typical US approach to track barriers the cost of running modified can get high very quick.
Learning to drive mod is more then just changing motors as the driving style is radically different then what it takes to be fast at stock racing. And with so few people running it...whats the point?
If I am being honest I really do not care how it impacts the manufacturers. As a manufacturer it will be your job to produce a motor and speed control combo that meets the needs for racers and offer it at a competitive price. It is obvious to me that this is very possible based on what Speed Passion has been able to do. I personally like the idea of purpose built hardware...yes it is less flexible but better for everyone. We all spend so much dam money on racing and I don't think another 60 bucks is gonna break the bank. The piece of mind is worth every penny to me!
Promoters need to start listening to racers and racers need to start demanding what products they want. If the racers and promoters don't demand these changes (if that is what they want) then it will simply never change. Instead we try to make what is already available fit the needs that it clearly does not meet. With product release cycles of most of the manufacturers...getting new products added seems like a reasonable possibility.
It will be very reasonable to assume that the manufacturers could compete to get their "Spec" products selected for an event. Speed Passion at IIC, LRP at Snowbirds, Hobbywing at Carpet Nats, and anything other then Tekin at paved Nats. The model works if the people want and will support it. It would be nice if their was only one option, but I want to control costs and having companies compete can help do that.
04-17-2012, 03:32 PM
#188
You're right about the motor thing for TC, 13.5 is too quick for 2s TC's in this country.
I do tend to speak from a 12th scale perspective. And yes they seem to be doing pretty well. Big turnouts at most big races, and in general, a vastly smaller amount of pissing and moaning........
I do tend to speak from a 12th scale perspective. And yes they seem to be doing pretty well. Big turnouts at most big races, and in general, a vastly smaller amount of pissing and moaning........
EA
04-17-2012, 03:35 PM
#189
If I am being honest I really do not care how it impacts the manufacturers. As a manufacturer it will be your job to produce a motor and speed control combo that meets the needs for racers and offer it at a competitive price. It is obvious to me that this is very possible based on what Speed Passion has been able to do. I personally like the idea of purpose built hardware...yes it is less flexible but better for everyone. We all spend so much dam money on racing and I don't think another 60 bucks is gonna break the bank. The piece of mind is worth every penny to me!
Promoters need to start listening to racers and racers need to start demanding what products they want. If the racers and promoters don't demand these changes (if that is what they want) then it will simply never change. Instead we try to make what is already available fit the needs that it clearly does not meet. With product release cycles of most of the manufacturers...getting new products added seems like a reasonable possibility.
It will be very reasonable to assume that the manufacturers could compete to get their "Spec" products selected for an event. Speed Passion at IIC, LRP at Snowbirds, Hobbywing at Carpet Nats, and anything other then Tekin at paved Nats. The model works if the people want and will support it. It would be nice if their was only one option, but I want to control costs and having companies compete can help do that.
Except for one troll I want to thank everyone for keeping it civil and giving good constructive feedback thus far. Lets keep it up! I didnt think it would go this long and be this good with info so this is a pleasant surprise!
EA
04-17-2012, 03:42 PM
#190
I am a gas racer but have raced electric brushed stock classes on clublevel as well. With the upcomming BL systems I decided to stop electrics because the devellopment of ESC's and motors as also the yearly discussion/change of which motor to use did take away the fun for me as a side hobby next to gas racing.
The funny thing is that on clublevel and national level there are huge discussions about ESC's and motors that there are at least 4 touring classes needed to get a well visited national event because no one will comply with one class while the same arguing drivers are running together the same stock class at the ETS. No one can tell why......
Although the ETS setup is getting well adapted on national and club level.
Also in gas racing there is a grow in using stock engines. It started with the German Hobbycup using Novarossi Basic engines sold for a special price which has spreaded out to the Netherlands (on clublevel) as well. People like it, not only due the low price and even the high performance but also the close competition.
Indeed the discussion is why to rule out the other brands. My sugestion with the gass engines is to setup a blue printed engine which can be made by all manufacturers, this is also possible with ESC's. Or look into the Formula-1 where all engines are running the same motor management you can imagine it is possible to design an ESC with only basic electronics and a handout module with the actual management has to be pushed into the ESC. This will give the opportunity to all brands to make their own ESC with even a programable module which can be replaced by the handout module.
The funny thing is that on clublevel and national level there are huge discussions about ESC's and motors that there are at least 4 touring classes needed to get a well visited national event because no one will comply with one class while the same arguing drivers are running together the same stock class at the ETS. No one can tell why......
Although the ETS setup is getting well adapted on national and club level.
Also in gas racing there is a grow in using stock engines. It started with the German Hobbycup using Novarossi Basic engines sold for a special price which has spreaded out to the Netherlands (on clublevel) as well. People like it, not only due the low price and even the high performance but also the close competition.
Indeed the discussion is why to rule out the other brands. My sugestion with the gass engines is to setup a blue printed engine which can be made by all manufacturers, this is also possible with ESC's. Or look into the Formula-1 where all engines are running the same motor management you can imagine it is possible to design an ESC with only basic electronics and a handout module with the actual management has to be pushed into the ESC. This will give the opportunity to all brands to make their own ESC with even a programable module which can be replaced by the handout module.
04-17-2012, 03:49 PM
#191
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Nope, not fallacy. Ran D1's the whole time boosted existed, and was never really down on HP. I do have a nemesis, but it came with a used TC I bought. It's a Normally aspirated vs. Forced induction kinda deal. Some motors didn't like a ton of boost because they'd get hot and burn up. Others could handle quite a bit, and they ran just fine. Kinda like the roll out differences you see with LRP vs. Revtech motors in blinky. There are several ways to skin a cat.......
And we'll be changing the focus to "that guy had better battery than me" or "his motor must have been THE good one" My whole point is that all we're gonna do is change the perception of why the slow are slow.
I have ZERO ulterior motive, I have no motor or ESC sponsors, of course I'm not really opposed to the idea, either. I just understand that it's re-inventing the wheel in a fashion that won't actually roll a damn bit better.
And we'll be changing the focus to "that guy had better battery than me" or "his motor must have been THE good one" My whole point is that all we're gonna do is change the perception of why the slow are slow.
I have ZERO ulterior motive, I have no motor or ESC sponsors, of course I'm not really opposed to the idea, either. I just understand that it's re-inventing the wheel in a fashion that won't actually roll a damn bit better.
There is never any way to change anyone’s perception on how or why they got beat but taking away more variables will limit the amount of some of the crying ass mofo's....this is RC racing there is more crying in here then there is at the Miss Universe pageant.
04-17-2012, 03:58 PM
#192
Probably covered in these 14 pages, but I dont want to waste huge amount of time finding it.
I just see too much favoritism with a system like you mention. Each track choosing which company spec system they want to run. Each time at a different track having to change and buy another setup. One company that might have a great product otherwise will be out if the equation. What if that company comes up with a way to get double the runtime with the same speed?
It sounds like the same idea that ROAR was proposing for static escs for a stock class.
There is VTA for a spec system like you mention.
(Separate but discussed. 13.5 Blinky should be the standard here in the US for 1C pan classes. Just too slow on 17.5 with barely any throttle movement.)
I just see too much favoritism with a system like you mention. Each track choosing which company spec system they want to run. Each time at a different track having to change and buy another setup. One company that might have a great product otherwise will be out if the equation. What if that company comes up with a way to get double the runtime with the same speed?
It sounds like the same idea that ROAR was proposing for static escs for a stock class.
There is VTA for a spec system like you mention.
(Separate but discussed. 13.5 Blinky should be the standard here in the US for 1C pan classes. Just too slow on 17.5 with barely any throttle movement.)
04-17-2012, 04:01 PM
#194
No, but it sure is boring, and one blip and your SOL. 13.5 allows leeway that you can still make up for some blips without having to drive a robotic perfect race. Its not as if 13.5 is ballistic, it just adds more challenge/fun. I also mentioned for 1C classes. Not 2C.
04-17-2012, 04:18 PM
#195
well EA, Ive read most of this and started to see a simple solution, that may or may not help, or have been said...
you know enough ppl in the RC World to make a phone call. Call this or that promoter and do a "demo" class of your idea. Ask for brand "X" motor and esc to be the hand out and see if they can do it really cheap. Simple..example
"Hey this EA, I would like to see about running a locked time motor and spec esc class at your event. I have brand "X" with several options to choose that will go in with the entry of all that want to run it."
"Hi brand "X", we are wanting to know if you would like to be the sponsor for the locked motor time and spec esc for the "big" event coming up. It will allow you to be the 1st in line to maybe changed the way we race. It will be a "demo" race but will be seen by all."
and if that doesnt work...you can, heck all of you can,come run U.S. VTA with our spec one motor and short list of escs and spec tires/rims and 18 bodies...and dont forget the driver figure...and the tons of FUN...but that sounds to much like what you are looking for?
Im just saying
Battman
you know enough ppl in the RC World to make a phone call. Call this or that promoter and do a "demo" class of your idea. Ask for brand "X" motor and esc to be the hand out and see if they can do it really cheap. Simple..example
"Hey this EA, I would like to see about running a locked time motor and spec esc class at your event. I have brand "X" with several options to choose that will go in with the entry of all that want to run it."
"Hi brand "X", we are wanting to know if you would like to be the sponsor for the locked motor time and spec esc for the "big" event coming up. It will allow you to be the 1st in line to maybe changed the way we race. It will be a "demo" race but will be seen by all."
and if that doesnt work...you can, heck all of you can,come run U.S. VTA with our spec one motor and short list of escs and spec tires/rims and 18 bodies...and dont forget the driver figure...and the tons of FUN...but that sounds to much like what you are looking for?
Im just saying
Battman