Xray Suspension
 

what does everyone suggest is the better suspension for the xray

the pivot ball or the c-hub???

Chub.... IF you go to the forun dedicated just to speak about the T1, its a great place for info.

Corey is correct in that you'll get more info about that if you do a search from the Xray Thread.

In general, the pivot ball is great for a beginner since the car is not as reactive. Chub with long arms is more twitcher and needs a more experienced driver to take full advantage, while the latest FK with short arms are the ultimate in response.

I started out with pillow ball before moving on to chub. Eventually I'll get the fk.

C-hub all the way!

I would say C-hub, but if tend to hit alot of walls i would go with pivot ball.

If you hit alot of walls get the short arms & an impact absorbing front bumper.

I would always run the c hub suspension. It doens't have as much camber change as the pivot ball suspension. The pivot ball suspension was taken directly off a serpent gas car, which is much heavier, has a higher center of gravity, and runs on foam tires outside. Thats what the pivot ball suspensiopn was mainly made for. The C hub suspension is a whole new system built from the ground up for the xray. It works awesome anywhere in my opinion.

-Korey

I vote for that:)

Pivot Ball users unite!
 

The pivot ball suspension can be tuned to be as effective as the c-hub suspension. The main reason so many advise against the pivot ball is that they are so used to the c-hub. Before the original Xray T1 no electric car used the pivot ball suspension. And the T1 was deemed as being "too complicated", "too many adjustments", "not for the beginner". This was because the overwhelming number of people were much so more familiar with the c-hub. So as a result the pivot ball got a bad rap. My first r/c car was a Serpent Impulse so I had no such attitude. My first electric car had a c-hub suspension and I could never get it to handle, plus I hated have to buy parts when I wanted to experiment with different setups. I jumped on the T1 as soon as I could get one. I currently drive a Evo II with all the upgrades on the new FK except it has a short arm pillow ball suspension. My car is still under weight and I haven't added the light weight rear bulkheads or light weight diffs. My car handles ALL aspects of the turns as quick or quicker than the Losis and Associateds that I run against. I lose no time through the transistions. And my car is lighter. I won my club race this last weekend by 3/4 of a lap. If you take the time to set it up you will give very little if anything away to a c-hub car. Add to that that in the 2 seasons I have had my Xray I have to only replace 1 shock (not my fault) and one drive shaft (definately my fault). Less that $20 in broken parts in 2 years. And not one dime to change caster, rear toe-in, or roll center.

Re: Pivot Ball users unite!
 

Its always nice to know that Xray seldom brake parts. For my case, only one front arm (PB) for the past 1 and a half year. After that been running CHub and never turning back.
I believe its not a good thing to argue about which suspension is the best.
Both can be good if you know how to set it up properly. Given the right time and knowledge, everything can be done correctly.
:D :D :D

Re: Re: Pivot Ball users unite!
 

I agree. Just depends on what you are used to and what works for you.

Impulse-racer, which short arms do you use with the pillow ball, part #s if poss? Thanks.

Yes, I'd also be interested in hearing what parts you are using. I was unaware they released a short pivot ball suspension kit.... ??:confused:

i think he meant use short arms for chub if your breaking them..not quite sure though as he didnt make it clear.

Re: Pivot Ball users unite!
 

I'm not going to go so far as to say a pillowball car connot handle as well as a c-hub car, but weight is definitely an issue if you are running carpet with foam tires (Roar weight is 1418 or so).

I'd be willing to bet that its impossible to get a pillowball car down to 1420 grams without major modifications to the pillowball system. Not to mention these changes would undermine its durability.

I use c-hub exclusively.

Re: Re: Pivot Ball users unite!
 

My car weighs 1lb 8oz static, no wheels, no batts and no motor. I have all the new light weight upgrades that are on the FK except the diff and rear bulkheads, which I can not find. And I replaced the stock pivot balls with the lighter hardened aluminum pivot balls. The electronics are Novak receiver and a GT7 esc. If it is any indication my car ready to run weighs less than an XXXS ready to run. This was from the guy that I beat in last weekends race by a lap. He picked them both up and was surprised that mine was a little lighter. As far as durability is concerned, in the two seasons I have raced, I have only replaced a drive shaft and a shock. I did switch to the short arms when they came out. Trust me, my Xray does not give away anything to ANY car at my track, pillow balls and all.

Re: Re: Re: Pivot Ball users unite!
 

Whats it weigh RTR?

How are you running front pillowballs with the FK front bulkheads?

This is interesting... how are you running the front pillowball setup with short arms? I thought the short arms were only setup for c-hub.

Yes they did. The original arms were part #302130, 320140(right,left) the newer parts are #302131, 302141. They introduced them with the wide offset steering blocks, part #302211,302221 when the EVO II was released. With the EVO II Xray began using the same axles and shocks front and rear, the original T1 did not.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Pivot Ball users unite!
 

I gave the static weight because people run different wheels, tires, batteries, and motors. I honestly don't know the RTR weight.

I am not using the FK front bulkheads. I can use the rear ones though.

I posted an answer to your last question.

Cool. I see now. Your short arms still mount on the inside of the bulkheads. I was confusing that with the FK short arms which mount on the outside of the bulkheads.

Hey!!!

I'm still using the PB suspension on my original T1 (the very first one). I agree on the convenience on changing of casters. No need to buy new caster blocks.

Regarding the PB suspension being too heavy, I haven't weighed it yet but I believe the a front PB assembly (arms, upright, axle) is still lighter to a C-hub assembly using the aluminum parts. Some people resort to aluminums to remedy the C-hub frailty :D (This only applies to drivers who still have issues with the barriers)

The PB suspension is harder to setup but it's a small price to pay to greater adjustibility possible. Just by moving clips, you can try out all possible caster without going out to buy a different block.

and my favorite part...

no more kingpins going loose on you.

impulse racer: thanks for the info re: the short arms. What else do I need to convert to the short arm?

i heard tonight that to run it on carpet you cannot run size 28 tires u need to go to 26 or so

Jeff, U can use offset shims over the wheel hex, to move the wheel out. By doing this you should be able to fit a 28mm tire in. If not you can file down the upright where it rubs.

Check out ashfordhobby.com for xray suspension parts.

I run 28mm foam without spacers. Now 30mm do rub.

I don't even think the old T1 parts are still available. I still have a bunch because I never broke any to replace anything. So you should not need anything. If you have a FOC you should aready have the short arms. IF not then you will need the 2 rear axle/driveshafts, left and right wide offset front steering blocks, and the left and right short upper A arms. The lower A arms are the same.

oh... THOSE short arms. :smile: I knew about those. I thought you meant some pivot ball arms that mounted outside the bulkheads, like the short c-hub arms do....

.... got it now. thanks! :nod:

For you maybe. I just believe pillow ball suspension has gotten a bad rap. Mainly because before the original T1 there were no electrics with pillow ball suspensions. It was something new that the "pros" were not familiar with(unless they also drove a gas car). So because and JUST because it was different the Xray got labeled as "too complicated", "not for the beginner", "not good enough to compete with the more established cars". IF you remeber the drivers that made the car work in the beginning were established gas car champions. But because at the grassroots area the "local pros" could not help the newbie with this pillow ball contraption the bad reputation spread. Which caused Xray to quickly developed the C-hub conversion. Suddenly everyone was back in their comfort zone. And the pilowball suspension now became "too heavy" "didn't have as good a turn in" "cornering speed was not as good as the c-hub". BULL. Look I am no expert. And I am not saying the pillow ball is better than the C-hub or vice versa. All I know is that I took the time to get my car properly setup and I give nothin away to the Associateds, Losis, and HPIs, that run at my track.

I had a buddy that ran the PB suspension for a couple of seasons. He was the first local guy to have an xray and he proved it was competitive with ALL other manufacturers.

Its a good car in either form, though I do still believe it would be impossible to be underweight RTR with PB suspension for carpet racing with foam tires. Its not a bad rap... the weight is just fact.
Much like the durability... PB Xrays do NOT break! lol

PB does make caster changes easier, but you have to put your car on a setup board EVERYTIME you run to make sure you still have the right caster, camber, and track width. The only one of those you need to worry about with the c-hub is the camber.

I guess I'm lazy! :nod: I'll keep my c-hubs.

Another urban legend about pillow ball suspensions. You DO NOT have to put the car on a setup board everytime you run. For that to be true it would mean that the pivot balls would back out or screw in tighter on their own. These are machine threads turned in composite plastic that pretty much mold themselves around the screw. The force on them is up and down not circular. The only way the pivot balls move is if you stick a 2.5mm allen wrench in them and move them. The caster is changed with clips spacing the upper A arm. So unless one pops out (never had it or seen it happen) the caster does not change through normal racing or use. I only put my car on a setup board 1) when I am experimenting with my setup, 2) I have disassembled the car for maintainance or cleaning, or 3) I hit something hard.
In other words the settings hold.

As far the weight is concerned, pull the motor, batteries, and wheels off your car and weigh it. Mine weighs 1lb 8oz. Or weigh the wheels, motor, and batteries and add 1lb 8oz. I don't think I am at a weight disadvantage. I am curious if I am or not. I am guessing my car weighs RTR about what an aluminum C-hub Xray weighs RTR.

Hmm..interesting. I had the original T1 and I loved it then. Me and three other racers did alot of testing. We tried alot of setups but just could not get it to work with the PB suspension. Between the three of us we had over 40+ years or rc experience. Two of the three are engineers and know alot about chassis design. Okay...what I miss about the car was that it was a beast. Nothing broke. Even when I would get those crazy glithches that would put it onto a wall at full throttle....the only thing that cracked was the bumper. Setup was a plus. Set it and forget it. It holds its settings well.

The thing that all of us agreed was that it just couldn't corner fast enough. When it first came out...we did alot of testing of prototype parts such as the dual position (for ackerman) steering post and the new bulkheads and different wheel throw geometries. The TC3's and Losi's were just plain faster...especially the TC3. One of the drivers that was running the T1 is an excellent driver. He could keep a Pro2 up there in the MOD A main against sponsored drivers. I have only seen 1 T1 able to keep up with the rest of the pack and that was Burch down at Snowbirds back in 2002...but nowhere close enough in Mod.

Bring your Xray with the PB suspension and see if it can hang with us. I race at www.rctrack.com and have alot of competition from the TC3s and now the TC4s. I run a Pro4 now. Right now....I think the car to beat at least in 19T and stock would be the either the Pro4, TC3,TC4 and the FK. Since the only one that has the new Losi is Andrew Gray...he doesn't count. He's a much better driver than any of us 19T or stock guys.

So if you think that an Xray with the PB suspension can keep up...you're more than welcome to join us up here at Mimi's track.

oops

Like I said before I am no expert. Just an average fish in a small pond. Last year I was all about horsepower. I bought a CE TurboDyno, Big Jim's Black Book, and spent hours tuning motors. And I had the fastest car going straight. I could not be passed in the straight or short shute but I was getting killed in the infield. But I was so focused on making the car faster motorwise I never thought about the setup much. As long as the rear didn't come around I was happy. This was only my second season on carpet, who knew? I couldn't do better than 3rd, mainly 4th or 5th. The light bulb just never went on. So this year I was about to buy the C-hub conversion kit, but after the light weight axles, driveshafts, layshaft, and aluminum pivot balls (for my outdoor Xray) I was a little short. At the same time I read something somewhere about "rolling through the corners and not scrubbing off too much speed". The light bulb lit up. I spent 7 hours over two days working on my setup. I would run 5 to 10 laps noticed what the car was or wasn't doing, looked at the Hudy Setup book to fix it, made one change, peaked my batteries and went back out. It was tedious but by the end of the second session I had dropped my lap average from 9.458(best from last season) to 8.756. And the car was sooo much easier to drive. It would now turn in sharply(no off power push), rotate through the corner(like it was on a pivot without oversteering), and when I reapplied power the rear would stop rotating, dig in(no on power push) and the car would just take off. On raceday last weekend the two guys with the Losi XXXSs who used to beat me like I stole something were there. I put in My Team Paradigm P2K2 and ran a 8.45 lap. I won the last race of the day by a lap. They actually wanted to tech my car. During the race while they were trail braking, I would just duck inside, roll through the corner and be back on power before they were 3/4 through the turn. When they decide to take me seriously and tightened up their line I was still faster. I made a driving error and had to play catch up. When I did I had to slow mid-corner to keep from rear ending the guy in front of me. I thought I was having an out of body experience. I was actually pulling away going through the chicane. I couldn't do this last year. It shown how much I was fighting the car last season. Like I said I am no expert, but I did run down two guys driving Losis who USED to beat me like I said something about their momma.

Thats cool! Just not what I've experienced with my serpent or my buddy's T1 PB car.

It seems to work for you though, and I've always said that a good car is all you need if you "know" the car. Understading your own car is a large part of becoming a better driver.

My local track has a very good mix of chassis. TC3, TC4, Pro4, Losi, 415, Evo3, Evo4, Xray T1, Xray FK etc....

All the cars are competitive against each other, but the two fastest Xrays at the track that makes the A main everytime uses PB suspension. One actually ends up top 3 every weekin club races.

I believe that almost all chassis you can buy out there gives similar performance IF you can get it to work for YOU. It's all about getting the whole package together. The drive must work together with the car to achieve the ultimate racing machine.

I just ordered one of those motors. Have you tried anything else from them? Why don't you and some of your friends make it up to Mimi's this Sat. We've got alot of people coming out the woodwork and competition will be fierce. Anybody running Pro4's down your way?

Jeff

I ordered a MVP from them last season for my Bloody Knife but when my LHS did not have any P2K2 armatures, it ended up in my Xray. It was the end of the season so I really never got to use it. It was the motor I used in that 7hours of testing. I was so impressed I said "why am spending hours in front of a CE turbodyno bending springs and aligning hoods when I can buy one of these." So I ordered two P2K2s. The customer service at Team Paradigm (and SMC) is great. Talked to Brandon Rhodes himself about a special request and he signed off as the tuner on the motors. I don't know if this was unusual but I was again impressed. I also get Tribotech lube from them.
I will be coming up but right now we are trying to get some new blood to come and race here. I am also a tennis instructor and one of my students used to race in New York. But he has a Pro 2 that I am going to talk him into replacing with Pro 4. Or an PB Xray. :) I have alot of stuff from my Pro 3 days that he can have until he trades up. But I will be coming up soon. It is one of the main reasons why I like this hobby is the good people you meet who also spend way too much money on toy cars.

Aint that the truth. Especially when you spread yourself thin between classes. Next year I may get into 1/8 offroad. I had purchased a savage just so I could have a car/truck to play with. When I had told some of my non-rc friends that I had just purchased a MT to play with they laughed and said what do I call racing my onroad cars? I told them WORK! Now because of the Savage and having a blast running offroad....the temptation to run 1/8 scale buggies is growing more and more. Especially since many of the sedan guys that I used to run with now run 1/8 scale buggies.

Impulse_racer:

You got PM

You are definately preaching to the chior. Summer before this past one I was running 1/10 gas sedan, 1/10 electric sedan, and 1/8 scale onroad. Try that along with track marshalling, setup adjustments, repairs, etc. Racedays were just a blurr like the money going out of my wallet. Now I desparately trying to run just a 710 during the summer and an Xray and Bloody Knife during the winter. That Xray buggy does look nice, though.