16LikesSerpent S411
07-04-2012, 09:53 AM
#3841
Tech Adept
Could you post a pic to see What are you talking about the shock ?
07-04-2012, 12:44 PM
#3842
Tech Regular
I got to run my car this past weekend, and I can't agree with Ryan more.
As I noted earlier, I had a real struggle building the shocks initially, and switched out the bladders before running. During the first run, I also drilled the top, and again that improved the car... quite a lot, with a very different (better!) feeling on track. Bladders are TAM53576 for those interested.
Anyway, back to the first run.... Having been pretty busy and not had a lot of opportunity to race recently, I headed into the weekend with limited preperation, and making it slightly harder by running mod, and at a new track too... deep end anyone
Anyway, I made up a list of stuff to run through during the day. This consisted mostly of major changes, and leaving the geometry alone, mainly as the geometry is something that doesn't seem to change too much over a number of setups.
First up was the V1 vs V2 (one-piece) motor mount.. felt that the car was more locked in and consistent with the V2, so left that on the car for the rest of the day.
Next up was a load of Diff changes, as I had built the diff as kit to start with (2gear, 1.2K), and felt this was a little soft, as the car was a bit unstable into the turns, and seemingly diffing out a bit on power. From those runs, I settled on 2gears with 2K oil as the prefered combo. The 4gear diff I also tried with 1.2K, but this was very hard and inconsistent to drive, very snappy on low throttle. Maybe 1000wt would have been better with the four gear, but it didn't feel great on the bench, so maybe needs a bit of work still.
Last on the list (well, not quite, as the shock change was last of all as I didn't have time to do that between rounds!) was playing with the rear roll bar positions. Having started out with kit (1.4mm, inside mount), feeling that the car was a bit too unstable during quick direction changes, I tried the 1.2mm bar on the outside mount to make it more linear and generally softer. This worked well to settle the rear down, too well in fact as the car then started to generate a on power push. To resolve this, moved the rear shock up one hole to 5 from 4. One thing nice to feel was that even this small change was felt on track, and did make a difference.
Overall, the day went really well, very happy with were the car ended up. Plenty still to come from it (and the driver), but every run learnt something, and every change I could feel on track. Also very impressed with the durability of the car, only issue I had all day was a rear CVD pin falling out after the grub screw came loose. Replaced both the rear's with TOP pins, that have a ground flat on them, and loctite, and that was the sum of the days problems. No issues with losing settings, no loose bits, no tweak issues... just a solid, easy and relaxing days racing. Just great really
Looking forward to running the car some more.
Regards
Ed
Final Setup - EC - Landsborough Interclub
As I noted earlier, I had a real struggle building the shocks initially, and switched out the bladders before running. During the first run, I also drilled the top, and again that improved the car... quite a lot, with a very different (better!) feeling on track. Bladders are TAM53576 for those interested.
Anyway, back to the first run.... Having been pretty busy and not had a lot of opportunity to race recently, I headed into the weekend with limited preperation, and making it slightly harder by running mod, and at a new track too... deep end anyone
Anyway, I made up a list of stuff to run through during the day. This consisted mostly of major changes, and leaving the geometry alone, mainly as the geometry is something that doesn't seem to change too much over a number of setups.
First up was the V1 vs V2 (one-piece) motor mount.. felt that the car was more locked in and consistent with the V2, so left that on the car for the rest of the day.
Next up was a load of Diff changes, as I had built the diff as kit to start with (2gear, 1.2K), and felt this was a little soft, as the car was a bit unstable into the turns, and seemingly diffing out a bit on power. From those runs, I settled on 2gears with 2K oil as the prefered combo. The 4gear diff I also tried with 1.2K, but this was very hard and inconsistent to drive, very snappy on low throttle. Maybe 1000wt would have been better with the four gear, but it didn't feel great on the bench, so maybe needs a bit of work still.
Last on the list (well, not quite, as the shock change was last of all as I didn't have time to do that between rounds!) was playing with the rear roll bar positions. Having started out with kit (1.4mm, inside mount), feeling that the car was a bit too unstable during quick direction changes, I tried the 1.2mm bar on the outside mount to make it more linear and generally softer. This worked well to settle the rear down, too well in fact as the car then started to generate a on power push. To resolve this, moved the rear shock up one hole to 5 from 4. One thing nice to feel was that even this small change was felt on track, and did make a difference.
Overall, the day went really well, very happy with were the car ended up. Plenty still to come from it (and the driver), but every run learnt something, and every change I could feel on track. Also very impressed with the durability of the car, only issue I had all day was a rear CVD pin falling out after the grub screw came loose. Replaced both the rear's with TOP pins, that have a ground flat on them, and loctite, and that was the sum of the days problems. No issues with losing settings, no loose bits, no tweak issues... just a solid, easy and relaxing days racing. Just great really
Looking forward to running the car some more.
Regards
Ed
Final Setup - EC - Landsborough Interclub
So does this mean a move onwards from the Awesomatix? Can I ask why and what your thoughts are between the Awesomatix and the 411?
07-04-2012, 08:44 PM
#3843
It's not a difficult thing to do, just need a small drill bit, and drill a small hole in the plastic cap piece, so that the air above the bladder can vent out. This also helps to remove a bit of pack from the shock too, which for high speed damping is no bad thing.
Regards
Ed
07-04-2012, 08:50 PM
#3844
To be honest, I'm not a fan of slagging cars off, and the Awesomatix on it's day was stupid fast... but regularly wouldn't have enough of them. Also seemed to be a lot of divergence on setups, and I simply no longer have the time or will to be wrenching hard on the car every run to try and figure the setup. And bumps.. well, we'll leave it there.
So, I've picked up a car that I believe is simple to work on, more traditional and consistent in setup, and that I would know how to sort out. Simple life really!
Regards
Ed
07-05-2012, 12:21 AM
#3845
Tech Regular
Yup,
To be honest, I'm not a fan of slagging cars off, and the Awesomatix on it's day was stupid fast... but regularly wouldn't have enough of them. Also seemed to be a lot of divergence on setups, and I simply no longer have the time or will to be wrenching hard on the car every run to try and figure the setup. And bumps.. well, we'll leave it there.
So, I've picked up a car that I believe is simple to work on, more traditional and consistent in setup, and that I would know how to sort out. Simple life really!
Regards
Ed
To be honest, I'm not a fan of slagging cars off, and the Awesomatix on it's day was stupid fast... but regularly wouldn't have enough of them. Also seemed to be a lot of divergence on setups, and I simply no longer have the time or will to be wrenching hard on the car every run to try and figure the setup. And bumps.. well, we'll leave it there.
So, I've picked up a car that I believe is simple to work on, more traditional and consistent in setup, and that I would know how to sort out. Simple life really!
Regards
Ed
But there is a lot to be said about being able to focus on your racing - and keep up the race/setup reports I always enjoy reading them regardless of what car you are running.
07-05-2012, 04:10 AM
#3846
Tech Regular
Is it necessary, no. Does, IMO, it make the car better to drive, yes. (Did the same thing when running the Tamiya, so it's nothing new).
It's not a difficult thing to do, just need a small drill bit, and drill a small hole in the plastic cap piece, so that the air above the bladder can vent out. This also helps to remove a bit of pack from the shock too, which for high speed damping is no bad thing.
Regards
Ed
It's not a difficult thing to do, just need a small drill bit, and drill a small hole in the plastic cap piece, so that the air above the bladder can vent out. This also helps to remove a bit of pack from the shock too, which for high speed damping is no bad thing.
Regards
Ed
1mm hole?
Drilling from above or from below?
Drilling in the middle or next to the shock cap mount?
Have a pic of how it looks?
07-05-2012, 05:34 AM
#3849
Great feedback Ed...
I am going to drill some shock caps and do some back to back testing. I have been happy with the new shocks as is, they can be troublesome with the bladders, but have gotten them all pretty close.
I have been amazed how people really are all over the place on diff oil. from 350 to 5,000.
Going to get busy bulding my 411 ff.. :>
I am going to drill some shock caps and do some back to back testing. I have been happy with the new shocks as is, they can be troublesome with the bladders, but have gotten them all pretty close.
I have been amazed how people really are all over the place on diff oil. from 350 to 5,000.
Going to get busy bulding my 411 ff.. :>
07-05-2012, 06:04 AM
#3850
Great feedback Ed...
I am going to drill some shock caps and do some back to back testing. I have been happy with the new shocks as is, they can be troublesome with the bladders, but have gotten them all pretty close.
I have been amazed how people really are all over the place on diff oil. from 350 to 5,000.
Going to get busy bulding my 411 ff.. :>
I am going to drill some shock caps and do some back to back testing. I have been happy with the new shocks as is, they can be troublesome with the bladders, but have gotten them all pretty close.
I have been amazed how people really are all over the place on diff oil. from 350 to 5,000.
Going to get busy bulding my 411 ff.. :>
On your ff comment, given F1 is my other class... well there's a reason for looking at Serpent
Ed
07-05-2012, 06:34 AM
#3851
Great feedback Ed...
I am going to drill some shock caps and do some back to back testing. I have been happy with the new shocks as is, they can be troublesome with the bladders, but have gotten them all pretty close.
I have been amazed how people really are all over the place on diff oil. from 350 to 5,000.
Going to get busy bulding my 411 ff.. :>
I am going to drill some shock caps and do some back to back testing. I have been happy with the new shocks as is, they can be troublesome with the bladders, but have gotten them all pretty close.
I have been amazed how people really are all over the place on diff oil. from 350 to 5,000.
Going to get busy bulding my 411 ff.. :>
On the diff oil thing, bare in mind my running is mostly going to be with mod, so thicker is generally better to get good traction, and keep the car stable into the turns. Having said that, still trying to figure out 2 gears vs 4
On your ff comment, given F1 is my other class... well there's a reason for looking at Serpent
Ed
On your ff comment, given F1 is my other class... well there's a reason for looking at Serpent
Ed
07-05-2012, 06:42 AM
#3852
I am planning on running my FF against the other GT cars. Just looking to have fun, and ensure my car is a bit slower then the other Sportsman GT cars. When we have enough FF cars to have a class , we will. If not, I have a fun car. Going to run a Van body on it.
We have an FF at our local track. It is a blast to drive, but just does not seem to have the pace of the other USGT cars (the only class we have to run it in here). I did get to tool around with it a bit a couple weeks back, and it sure feels good. It does not drive like I would have expected one to, and the back end is much more planted then it looks like it would be. I'll be interested to hear your experience.
FF is the front wheel drive touring car, not the F1...their 10th scale F1 is not yet available...August was the last that I heard.
FF is the front wheel drive touring car, not the F1...their 10th scale F1 is not yet available...August was the last that I heard.
07-05-2012, 11:58 AM
#3853
On the diff oil thing, bare in mind my running is mostly going to be with mod, so thicker is generally better to get good traction, and keep the car stable into the turns. Having said that, still trying to figure out 2 gears vs 4
On your ff comment, given F1 is my other class... well there's a reason for looking at Serpent
Ed
On your ff comment, given F1 is my other class... well there's a reason for looking at Serpent
Ed
07-05-2012, 12:03 PM
#3854
Great feedback Ed...
I am going to drill some shock caps and do some back to back testing. I have been happy with the new shocks as is, they can be troublesome with the bladders, but have gotten them all pretty close.
I have been amazed how people really are all over the place on diff oil. from 350 to 5,000.
Going to get busy bulding my 411 ff.. :>
I am going to drill some shock caps and do some back to back testing. I have been happy with the new shocks as is, they can be troublesome with the bladders, but have gotten them all pretty close.
I have been amazed how people really are all over the place on diff oil. from 350 to 5,000.
Going to get busy bulding my 411 ff.. :>
07-05-2012, 02:34 PM
#3855
RCM Shock test.
It just so happens that I've finished my shock test over 2 race days and 3 test sessions.
First I have to say that I use all the stock pieces on top and bottom of the shock. With that, using the stock bladders I have had no issues putting the shocks togeather as far as the top cap goes. I should add that when I put the shock togeather I put the bladder on the shock and then use the round ball end of my xray turn buckle wrench (if you have one you'll know what I'm tailking about) to make sure the bladder is well seated into the shock body, dispercing a small amount of oil, but making for a air tight seal. Then I put the plastic/ball top on the bladder and finally the aluminum cap. I seem to have no issues with the cap causing the bladder to un-seat itself and can get this done in one attempt most times.
I leave the cap slightly un-screwed and push the shock shaft all the way into the shock and then tighten the cap down, just snug, not over tightened. This has given me repeated shock reboound of about 2mm, or really next to nothing. I will say that I did have one shock that fought back a little but on the 3rd attempt it equalized out to the same settings as the others.
So testing I ran the original shocks (V1) which would run about 40% rebound all the time, since I've had the car. Going to the RCM shock, with no bleed hole or zero rebound, the stock RCM shock would produce roughly the same amount of rebound and not surprisingly, the same feel on the track, producing near identical lap times over and over, from test to test.
Now I decided to do the 1mm hole, pressure relieve, zero rebound shock. I can say that although this did not produce a overall faster lap for me, it did tighten the overall consistancy of the laps by a noticable amount. So much so that I'm pretty convinced that this would be the prefered shock build for me. To me it seems to make more sense to build the shock with the zero reound and have it be a controlable constant, than trying to get a constant rebound setting, (and I got pretty good at setting the old shocks). The feel of the car just felt a little more predictable with a more numb feeling to it. Not a bad numb though just a feel like it didn't kick back when you least expected it.
I also tested some of the different diff/oil setups and just when I thought I had it figured out, I think I'm even more mixed up. I had several combinations built and went anywhere from 2k2gear, down to 700/4gear, and the final 7004 is the one that felt the best on track, it produced the beast turn in and power down on exit, which isn't what I had expected. I actually am starting to get the feeling that this is going to be a best guess and drive around the short comings deal as I still have yet to get some kind of pattern as to when and where one is better over another.
I did find it funny that when looking at Tims setup I was also running the 450/400 shock oil, only to change a couple weeks ago to 35wt oil all around, which I see Ed was using.
One thing that I started to play around with a little more is the sway bars, now running a 1.6 front bar which seemed to take just that small overroll? of the front end of the car on corner exit out, so if you have them give them a try you might like the heavier bar feel.
I also went back and with my current setup, did the V1/V2 motor mount comparison, and at this point, the V2 worked better, and the original weird feel of the V2 from before was no longer a issue, although I can say that quite a bit has changed with car setup since I first did these tests.
First I have to say that I use all the stock pieces on top and bottom of the shock. With that, using the stock bladders I have had no issues putting the shocks togeather as far as the top cap goes. I should add that when I put the shock togeather I put the bladder on the shock and then use the round ball end of my xray turn buckle wrench (if you have one you'll know what I'm tailking about) to make sure the bladder is well seated into the shock body, dispercing a small amount of oil, but making for a air tight seal. Then I put the plastic/ball top on the bladder and finally the aluminum cap. I seem to have no issues with the cap causing the bladder to un-seat itself and can get this done in one attempt most times.
I leave the cap slightly un-screwed and push the shock shaft all the way into the shock and then tighten the cap down, just snug, not over tightened. This has given me repeated shock reboound of about 2mm, or really next to nothing. I will say that I did have one shock that fought back a little but on the 3rd attempt it equalized out to the same settings as the others.
So testing I ran the original shocks (V1) which would run about 40% rebound all the time, since I've had the car. Going to the RCM shock, with no bleed hole or zero rebound, the stock RCM shock would produce roughly the same amount of rebound and not surprisingly, the same feel on the track, producing near identical lap times over and over, from test to test.
Now I decided to do the 1mm hole, pressure relieve, zero rebound shock. I can say that although this did not produce a overall faster lap for me, it did tighten the overall consistancy of the laps by a noticable amount. So much so that I'm pretty convinced that this would be the prefered shock build for me. To me it seems to make more sense to build the shock with the zero reound and have it be a controlable constant, than trying to get a constant rebound setting, (and I got pretty good at setting the old shocks). The feel of the car just felt a little more predictable with a more numb feeling to it. Not a bad numb though just a feel like it didn't kick back when you least expected it.
I also tested some of the different diff/oil setups and just when I thought I had it figured out, I think I'm even more mixed up. I had several combinations built and went anywhere from 2k2gear, down to 700/4gear, and the final 7004 is the one that felt the best on track, it produced the beast turn in and power down on exit, which isn't what I had expected. I actually am starting to get the feeling that this is going to be a best guess and drive around the short comings deal as I still have yet to get some kind of pattern as to when and where one is better over another.
I did find it funny that when looking at Tims setup I was also running the 450/400 shock oil, only to change a couple weeks ago to 35wt oil all around, which I see Ed was using.
One thing that I started to play around with a little more is the sway bars, now running a 1.6 front bar which seemed to take just that small overroll? of the front end of the car on corner exit out, so if you have them give them a try you might like the heavier bar feel.
I also went back and with my current setup, did the V1/V2 motor mount comparison, and at this point, the V2 worked better, and the original weird feel of the V2 from before was no longer a issue, although I can say that quite a bit has changed with car setup since I first did these tests.